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A frost weapon is a power weapon that grants +1s right. However the new rules for power weapons mean a power axe would offer a higher strength bonus at a lower cost? (and a lower Initiative). Is it really worth buying frost weapons anymore when i could just model a power axe instead?

It depends on the type of SW you play. If you put it on a wolf guard unit its really good because there are other weapons mixed in for I. If you put it in a GH unit on a WG then I would consider maybe giving one GH a power sword for the challenges (if he counts as a ch) if he does not than drop 2 WG in the GH unit one with the axe one with the sword.

TH3FALL3N wrote:A frost weapon is a power weapon that grants +1s right. However the new rules for power weapons mean a power axe would offer a higher strength bonus at a lower cost? (and a lower Initiative). Is it really worth buying frost weapons anymore when i could just model a power axe instead?

Why would you take an ax that gives you Str6 and strikes at initiative 1, when you can take a power fist that doubles your strength, strikes at initiative 1, and costs the same pointwise. It really is a no brainer.

I refuse to run Logan's Axe as a frost axe, there is no point to it. I want him either swinging with a Frost weapon or power fist, not a frost axe or power fist

valace2 wrote:

TH3FALL3N wrote:A frost weapon is a power weapon that grants +1s right. However the new rules for power weapons mean a power axe would offer a higher strength bonus at a lower cost? (and a lower Initiative). Is it really worth buying frost weapons anymore when i could just model a power axe instead?

Why would you take an ax that gives you Str6 and strikes at initiative 1, when you can take a power fist that doubles your strength, strikes at initiative 1, and costs the same pointwise. It really is a no brainer.

I refuse to run Logan's Axe as a frost axe, there is no point to it. I want him either swinging with a Frost weapon or power fist, not a frost axe or power fist

Logan's axe is a unique Power Weapon anyway, and as such strikes with AP3 and at I when not used as a Power Fist.

The amount. Of fail, Logans can be used as a frost blade not axe please note the difference, unlike normal power weapons his tells you its the Plus 1 str and ap 3 blade not axe, Blade /= Axe, secondly buy a power fist If wantong frost axe. and if wanting frpst blade well then it depends and is up to you since they are aome time worth it.

Frost blades yes, frost axes HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL NO!

You want an AP2 weapon either buy a cheaper power axe or a powerfist, frost axes at the moment are worthless.

They're not AP2...........

They're AP3 cause they're unusual PW... the unusual part is +1S and since there are no other additional rules, it swings at initiative. So there is a use for frost axes.

The FAQ for SW counts Frost Axes as AP 2 and Unwieldy.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:They're not AP2...........

They're AP3 cause they're unusual PW... the unusual part is +1S and since there are no other additional rules, it swings at initiative. So there is a use for frost axes.[/quote

Before adding the ......... to your post, I suggest reading the FAQ its quite clear how they work

Wolf claws are better than frost blades. They are both AP3, but the re-roll to wound is better than the +1 strength. Wolf Claws are cheaper too.

Power fists are better than frost axes. They are both AP2 and init 1, but the power fist gives you S8 (or S10 for a thunderwolf lord) while the frost axe only gives you S6. Furthermore, they generally cost the same number of points.

The math on the frost axe is obvious. As for the wolf claw vs. frost blade, consider a S4 user vs. T4. So the frost axe and wolf claw have the same chance to hit when you use the wolf claw to re-roll wounds. Let's compute the chance to wound.

Against toughness 4, the frost axe is S5, so it needs a 3+ to wound. Hence

%chance to wound with Frost Axe = 66.66%

On the other hand, the Wolf Claw needs a 4+ to wound with a re-roll. So

%chance to wound with Wolf Claw = (%chance to wound on first roll) + (%chance NOT to wound on first roll)(%chance to wound on second roll)
= (50%) + (50%)(50%)
= 75%

valace2 wrote:

TH3FALL3N wrote:A frost weapon is a power weapon that grants +1s right. However the new rules for power weapons mean a power axe would offer a higher strength bonus at a lower cost? (and a lower Initiative). Is it really worth buying frost weapons anymore when i could just model a power axe instead?

Why would you take an ax that gives you Str6 and strikes at initiative 1, when you can take a power fist that doubles your strength, strikes at initiative 1, and costs the same pointwise. It really is a no brainer.

Actually it's not a no brainer .
Let's asume a wolf lord with a pistol, wolf tooth necklace and either a Frost Axe (S6) or a Power Fist (S8). He has 4 attacks base and one extra in the first round of combat (either for charging or counter attack). The axe-wielder would get another for additional CCW.

The fist wins big time vs. T4 multi-wound models (w/o Eternal Warrior) as each wound caused is basically multiplied. But how many of those do you face? Marine and some Chaos ICs, Nobs, some Tyranids, Tau suits, DE Haemunculus, GK Paladins. So most armies have only a handful models if any at all.

The fist also wins vs. T6+, also something only a few armies can have and usualy not in large numbers.

Then there are T4 models with FNP. The fist does 0.55 more wounds in first round of combat and 0.38 in the following turns. Not too much of a difference and only realy worth considering if you know that you will run into lots of those critters.

Versus T5 (mostly bikes and Nurgle stuff), the fist lead in the first round with 0.11 and is equal in subsequent turns. So this is also neglible.

The axe wins big vs T4 w/o FNP and all T3 , and I think most of your enemies will fall into this category.

The less base attacks you have, the better the Axe gets compared to the fist. On a Pack Leader, it is even better vs. T5 than the fist.

Vehicles: if its a AV 12/13 walker or a normal vehicle with rear armor 11+, the fist is clearly better. Anything else, the Axe should be enough to deal with it.

IMHO the Fist is only better in specific situations while the Axe is the better all-purpose weapon. If you are willing to stick in a second specialist weapon like a Power Claw, the Fist wins, but it also costs more and you don't have a shooting option except maybe a thrown krak grenade. If you want a combi-weapon, the Fist is also the better choice.

I had forgotten about the extra attack you get with a pistol. So I went back and ran the numbers. I'll attach a file so you can play with it.

It turns out that a frost axe IS better than a power fist, but only under the following conditions.

On a Thunderwolf model (Base strength = 5)
1) You take a pistol with your Frost Blade
2) The target's toughness is 5 or less, OR the target has toughness 6 and your character has 4 or less attacks.

On an Infantry Model (Base Strength = 4)
1) You take a pistol with your Frost Blade
2) The target's toughness is 4 or less, OR the target has toughness 5 and your character has 4 or less attacks.

In every other case, a power fist is better. However, as soon as you add a storm shield or a storm bolter or a combi-weapon, or anything that isn't a pistol, then you have lost the advantage (1 extra attack) of the frost axe. If you want any of these, you should take a power fist instead. In particular, if you're kitting out a model to fight a challenge, then having initiative 1 with either of these weapons makes you particularly vulnerable to higher init characters. In those cases, you're going to want the storm shield to give you the 3++ invulnerable so that you have a chance to hit back before they kill you. On the other hand, if you have a wolf guard pack leader then you'll want to give him a combi-weapon too. So in that case a power fist is still better.

Here is are the stats.

Frost Axe (with base strength 4, modified to S6, vs. T5) (% chance of causing AT LEAST N wounds)

Attacks 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
2 100.00% 55.56% 11.11% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
3 100.00% 70.37% 25.93% 3.70% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
4 100.00% 80.25% 40.74% 11.11% 1.23% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
5 100.00% 86.83% 53.91% 20.99% 4.53% 0.41% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
6 100.00% 91.22% 64.88% 31.96% 10.01% 1.78% 0.14% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
7 100.00% 94.15% 73.66% 42.94% 17.33% 4.53% 0.69% 0.05% 0.00% 0.00%
8 100.00% 96.10% 80.49% 53.18% 25.86% 8.79% 1.97% 0.26% 0.02% 0.00%
9 100.00% 99.99% 97.39% 85.69% 62.28% 34.96% 14.48% 4.24% 0.82% 0.09%

Frost Axe (with base strength 4, modified to S6, vs. T4) (% chance to score AT LEAST N unsaved wounds)

# of Attacks 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
2 100.00% 65.97% 17.36% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
3 100.00% 80.15% 37.62% 7.23% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
4 100.00% 88.42% 55.34% 19.89% 3.01% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
5 100.00% 93.25% 69.12% 34.66% 10.05% 1.26% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
6 100.00% 96.06% 79.17% 49.02% 20.30% 4.92% 0.52% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
7 100.00% 97.70% 86.21% 61.58% 32.27% 11.33% 2.35% 0.22% 0.00% 0.00%
8 100.00% 98.66% 91.00% 71.85% 44.48% 20.05% 6.09% 1.11% 0.09% 0.00%
9 100.00% 99.96% 99.18% 94.15% 79.79% 55.85% 30.20% 11.87% 3.15% 0.48%


Power Fist (with base strength 4, modified to S8, vs T5) (% chance of causing AT LEAST N wounds)

Attacks 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 100.00% 41.67% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
2 100.00% 65.97% 17.36% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
3 100.00% 80.15% 37.62% 7.23% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
4 100.00% 88.42% 55.34% 19.89% 3.01% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
5 100.00% 93.25% 69.12% 34.66% 10.05% 1.26% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
6 100.00% 96.06% 79.17% 49.02% 20.30% 4.92% 0.52% 0.00% 0.00%
7 100.00% 97.70% 86.21% 61.58% 32.27% 11.33% 2.35% 0.22% 0.00%
8 100.00% 98.66% 91.00% 71.85% 44.48% 20.05% 6.09% 1.11% 0.09%

Power Fist (with base strength 4, modified to S8, vs T4) (% chance to score AT LEAST N unsaved wounds)

# of Attacks 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 100.00% 41.67% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
2 100.00% 65.97% 17.36% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
3 100.00% 80.15% 37.62% 7.23% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
4 100.00% 88.42% 55.34% 19.89% 3.01% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
5 100.00% 93.25% 69.12% 34.66% 10.05% 1.26% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
6 100.00% 96.06% 79.17% 49.02% 20.30% 4.92% 0.52% 0.00% 0.00%
7 100.00% 97.70% 86.21% 61.58% 32.27% 11.33% 2.35% 0.22% 0.00%
8 100.00% 98.66% 91.00% 71.85% 44.48% 20.05% 6.09% 1.11% 0.09%



EDIT : I'm sorry the tables don't line up well. They are easier to read if you hit "quote" and then copy&paste the text into a word processor.

The pistol bit means that there's no reason to ever give a Wolf Guard termie a frost blade, which is kind of sad. Then again, I do have a billion Wolf Claw arms lying around, and they can still have Melta-bombs in terminator armor.

Still partial to chainfists, though.

Grugknuckle wrote:Wolf claws are better than frost blades. They are both AP3, but the re-roll to wound is better than the +1 strength. Wolf Claws are cheaper too.

Power fists are better than frost axes. They are both AP2 and init 1, but the power fist gives you S8 (or S10 for a thunderwolf lord) while the frost axe only gives you S6. Furthermore, they generally cost the same number of points.

The math on the frost axe is obvious. As for the wolf claw vs. frost blade, consider a S4 user vs. T4. So the frost axe and wolf claw have the same chance to hit when you use the wolf claw to re-roll wounds. Let's compute the chance to wound.

Against toughness 4, the frost axe is S5, so it needs a 3+ to wound. Hence

%chance to wound with Frost Axe = 66.66%

On the other hand, the Wolf Claw needs a 4+ to wound with a re-roll. So

%chance to wound with Wolf Claw = (%chance to wound on first roll) + (%chance NOT to wound on first roll)(%chance to wound on second roll)
= (50%) + (50%)(50%)
= 75%

Personally, I love the frost weapons, especially from a fluff point of view. They all have their utility so I don't think you cant go wrong with any of them. Just know what your guy can do, and don't have him fight things he shouldn't.

One thing your annalists doesn't consider in frost blade vs wolf claws, is that frost blades get +1 attack without spending any more points. You need a different specialist weapon in order to get that +1 attack for the claws. As such, it pretty much turns into a bit of a wash. However, one thing a frost blade allows you to do that wolf claws do not, is effect T8 MCs, or pen armor 10 vehicles, Glance AV11, etc. Sometimes the higher point of S does matter.

Intresting read please continue!

Jayden63 wrote:
Personally, I love the frost weapons, especially from a fluff point of view. They all have their utility so I don't think you cant go wrong with any of them. Just know what your guy can do, and don't have him fight things he shouldn't.

One thing your annalists doesn't consider in frost blade vs wolf claws, is that frost blades get +1 attack without spending any more points. You need a different specialist weapon in order to get that +1 attack for the claws. As such, it pretty much turns into a bit of a wash. However, one thing a frost blade allows you to do that wolf claws do not, is effect T8 MCs, or pen armor 10 vehicles, Glance AV11, etc. Sometimes the higher point of S does matter.

Except that wolf claws are STILL five points cheaper and allow you to take a combi-weapon (or something else) with out sacrificing any CC cabability. If you spend an extra 5 points on a frost blade, and then give the guy a storm bolter, or a storm shield you've not only wasted 5 points, but you've also lost that extra attack. Furthermore, if you're up against a model with a high weapon skill but medium to low toughness (like some eldar autarch or a SM captain) you can always choose to re-roll to Hit with the wolf claw instead. Putting a Wolf Priest in your squad will also give you preferred enemy against one unit type (e.g. Infantry).

And here are the tables for the Wolf Claw and Frost Blade. Both tables are for strength 4 models (+1 for the FB) against Toughness 4 models.

Wolf Claw ( % chance to score AT LEAST N unsaved wounds, re-rolling to Wound)

# of Attacks 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 100.00% 37.50% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
2 100.00% 60.94% 14.06% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
3 100.00% 75.59% 31.64% 5.27% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
4 100.00% 84.74% 48.12% 15.16% 1.98% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
5 100.00% 90.46% 61.85% 27.52% 6.92% 0.74% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
6 100.00% 94.04% 72.58% 40.40% 14.65% 3.06% 0.28% 0.00% 0.00%
7 100.00% 96.27% 80.63% 52.47% 24.30% 7.40% 1.32% 0.10% 0.00%
8 100.00% 97.67% 86.50% 63.03% 34.86% 13.74% 3.60% 0.56% 0.04%


Frost Blade (% chance to score AT LEAST N unsaved wounds, +1 Stregth)

# of Attacks 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 100.00% 33.33% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
2 100.00% 55.56% 11.11% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
3 100.00% 70.37% 25.93% 3.70% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
4 100.00% 80.25% 40.74% 11.11% 1.23% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
5 100.00% 86.83% 53.91% 20.99% 4.53% 0.41% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
6 100.00% 91.22% 64.88% 31.96% 10.01% 1.78% 0.14% 0.00% 0.00%
7 100.00% 94.15% 73.66% 42.94% 17.33% 4.53% 0.69% 0.05% 0.00%
8 100.00% 96.10% 80.49% 53.18% 25.86% 8.79% 1.97% 0.26% 0.02%

Except that almost any wolf model that can take a specialist weapon can also take a wolf tooth necklace which removes WS from the equation. And while thats a great anaysis for T4, things change with T5, T6, etc. And like I said, Claws can't even hurt T8 or AV11.

Also include that once you get up to S6 - say lord on TW with FB your now Insta-gibbing T3 models. The vast majority of T3 multi-wound models do not have 2+ armor saves, so the ap3 of the sword is just fine for that.

Its not all just about killing marines.

Jayden63 wrote:Except that any wolf model that can take a specialist weapon can also take a wolf tooth necklace which removes WS from the equation. And while thats a great anaysis for T4, things change with T5, T6, and like I said. Claws can't even hurt T8.

Also include that once you get up to S6 - say lord on TW with FB your now Insta-gibbing T3 models. The vast majority of T3 multi-wound models do not have 2+ armor saves, so the ap3 of the sword is just fine for that.

Its not all just about killing marines.

Most specialist weapons in a Space Wolf army will be on models that can't take Wolf Tooth Necklaces. Wolf Guard can't take necklaces, and neither can Grey Hunters, Thunderwolves, Swiftclaws, Skyclaws, or Blood Claws. Only dreads, Iron Priests, and HQ choices can take necklaces. However, models who can take claws (Wolf Guard, Lone Wolves, and Thunderwolves) can take meltabombs to cover for the lost strength against MCs and vehicles.

Lone wolves are already WS 5 - so they have that edge going for them, hitting on a 3+ against 90% of everything out there.
Grey Hunters and all the "claws", don't have the option for frost weapons or wolf claws. Thus the real choice is between power sword, power axe, and P-fist. In which case the 10 point difference between S5 and S8 is almost a no brainer. However, being stuck with 1 attack (on turns not charging or being charged) hitting most things on a 4 makes that 10 points seem expensive. So you need to ask what else is in the squad.
Thunderwolves - get a P-fist or Thunderhammer. No questions asked because S10 is just too valuable in a world where bikers are now T5 straight up (and other T5 stuff of course). Also striking at I1 for one model in a squad isn't that big of a deal, unlike solo operators like HQs.

So in reality the only guys who have to make the hard choice is wolf guard. And there are lots of different types of wolf guard. Do they wear termi armor, are they leading other squads, are they a squad of their own, etc. I think the weapon they choose depends greatly on the roll that they will have and where they end up in the army as a whole. Do you need more at init weapon stikes? Can they be singled out with challenges? Etc. What other tank/walker busting weapons are present in the squad?

I just had to check the FAQ to check the options. And while I can see why, I'm gutted there's no option for a Frost Maul. That would kick so much butt against the right opponents.

Jayden63 wrote:Except that almost any wolf model that can take a specialist weapon can also take a wolf tooth necklace which removes WS from the equation.

For an extra 10 points, sure you can take a WTN. But it's a complete waste of points. Any character that can actually take a WTN doesn't really need it because they've already got WS at least 5. I hate it when people pay 10 points to give their WS6 wolf lord a WTN. He hits every thing with a WS5 or less on a 3+ anyway! For most armies you're likely to play against, there *might* be a single model with WS 6 where the WTN might give you a small benefit. Even then, you still need to get into CC with THAT model with your character. For the points you pay a WTN is never worth it.

And while thats a great anaysis for T4, things change with T5, T6, etc. And like I said, Claws can't even hurt T8 or AV11.

Ok...But a frost BLADE can't hurt T8 or AV11 either! Remember, we compare the wolf claw to a frost BLADE and the power fist to the frost AXE. They're different. I can provide the stats on any other Strength vs. Toughness really easily. Which do you want to see?

Also include that once you get up to S6 - say lord on TW with FB your now Insta-gibbing T3 models. The vast majority of T3 multi-wound models do not have 2+ armor saves, so the ap3 of the sword is just fine for that.

How often do you see a T3 model with more than one wound anyway? Eldar Farseers are the only thing I can think of and any eldar player is going to find a way to get eternal warrior and an invulnerable save for his farseer. Besides, an assault cannon or plasmagun equally effective, and much easier to get shot opportunities with.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:
Grey Hunters and all the "claws", don't have the option for frost weapons or wolf claws. Thus the real choice is between power sword, power axe, and P-fist. In which case the 10 point difference between S5 and S8 is almost a no brainer. However, being stuck with 1 attack (on turns not charging or being charged) hitting most things on a 4 makes that 10 points seem expensive.

You should never take a power fist on a grey hunter because 1) it's 10 points more expensive than a PF on a WG pack leader and 2) you only get one attack while the pack leader gets 2. You might say, "But I can't fit 11 guys in a Rhino and I want that extra special weapon." My answer is, take a combi-weapon on your pack leader instead of a second plasma / melta / flamer in the squad.

So in reality the only guys who have to make the hard choice is wolf guard.

It's not a hard choice at all. A frost blade is 5 points MORE expensive than a wolf claw and it's not as good. Even if you take an extra attack for having a pistol, they about the same. You're better off spending that 5 points on a combi-weapon and giving your WG some effective shooting because it's much easier to get opportunities to shoot than it is to get opportunities to use your CC weapons.

As for the power fist vs. frost axe, they cost the same for a WG models. But once again, arming your WG with just pistols and a good CC weapon is very limiting. The WG need something else to be viable. They either need a storm shield to be survivable against characters in CC. Or they need a combi weapon or storm bolter. As soon as you add one of these, you've lost the extra attack in CC and the power fist becomes better than the frost axe.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Ready wrote:I just had to check the FAQ to check the options. And while I can see why, I'm gutted there's no option for a Frost Maul. That would kick so much butt against the right opponents.

Again....Why have +3 strength (to give you S8) at AP4 for 20 points, when you could have S8 AP2 for 20 points with a power fist?

Grugknuckle wrote:
Ok...But a frost BLADE can't hurt T8 or AV11 either! Remember, we compare the wolf claw to a frost BLADE and the power fist to the frost AXE. They're different. I can provide the stats on any other Strength vs. Toughness really easily. Which do you want to see?

Don't Frost Blades give +1S though? S5 can hurt T8.

To quote many before me: It’s a No Brainer

First you need to is ask your self; Why do I want to take want to take a Frost Weapon?
Answer: To kill things better!

Frost Blades:
When you take a Frost Blade what happens, you now wound T3 on a 2+ and T4 on a 3+.
If you are on a Thunderwolf you now ID T3 and wound T4 on a 2+
With a Pistol you are now getting 2-6 Attacks depending whether you are a Wolf Guard or a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf.

Frost Axe:
The Frost Axe is the same as wielding a Frost Blade on a Thunderwolf.
A Frost Axe on a Thunderwolf makes you S7; you are now wounding Plague Marines and Bikers on a 2+. You can tear apart transports at will along with most Monstrous Creatures.
With a Pistol you are now getting 2-6 Attacks depending whether you are a Wolf Guard or a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf.

Initiative 1:
So you are now Initiative 1 that happens; before 6th edition we all would have just shrugged and moved on. Now with Challenges it’s important; understand that, I am not saying you should only take weapon that let you go off on I4
No if you say should I take an Axe everyone yells NO! You will go off at I1, but spend the extra points and get a Thunder Hammer and punch that AP2 with a S8!
I personally look at it this way.
I take my Thunder Lord and give him a Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Artificer Armor and 5 Attacks that will ID that 1 wound Terminator Sergeant on a 2+.
Or
I can take that Thunder Lord with a Frost Axe, Bolt Pistol and Artificer Armor, Belt of Russ and get 6 Attacks that wounds him on a 2+.

Frost Weapons also have something that no other weapon the Space Wolves have; Coolness Factor, which to me is more important the Mathhammer. To me this is the No Brainer!

Grugknuckle wrote:Again....Why have +3 strength (to give you S8) at AP4 for 20 points, when you could have S8 AP2 for 20 points with a power fist?

Because then you'd be striking at full Initiative - so perfect against say Orks or Tyranids. However, seeing as we can't anyway, the point's kind of moot.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:
Ok...But a frost BLADE can't hurt T8 or AV11 either! Remember, we compare the wolf claw to a frost BLADE and the power fist to the frost AXE. They're different. I can provide the stats on any other Strength vs. Toughness really easily. Which do you want to see?

Don't Frost Blades give +1S though? S5 can hurt T8.

You're right. My mistake. But still. Find me a model with toughness 8 and I'll find a better way to kill it than close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:To quote many before me: It’s a No Brainer

I can take that Thunder Lord with a Frost Axe, Bolt Pistol and Artificer Armor, Belt of Russ and get 6 Attacks that wounds him on a 2+.

Frost Weapons also have something that no other weapon the Space Wolves have; Coolness Factor, which to me is more important the Mathhammer. To me this is the No Brainer!

The statistics do not support your position. If you want to kill things better, then a wolf claw and a combi is better than a frost blade and a pistol. A power fist and a storm-shield / combi / storm-bolter is better than a frost axe and a bolt pistol. Also, wolf claws are just as fluffy and cool as frost weapons. But I'll grant that for space wolves, frost weapons are "cooler" than power fists.

Grugknuckle wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:
Ok...But a frost BLADE can't hurt T8 or AV11 either! Remember, we compare the wolf claw to a frost BLADE and the power fist to the frost AXE. They're different. I can provide the stats on any other Strength vs. Toughness really easily. Which do you want to see?

Don't Frost Blades give +1S though? S5 can hurt T8.

You're right. My mistake. But still. Find me a model with toughness 8 and I'll find a better way to kill it than close combat.

Wraithlords are T8, though they're still going to die to Wolf Guard, assuming you remembered to buy one or two Storm Shields and gave meltabombs to the guys with claws.

Wraithlords are T8. The old Ctan were T8 (donno about the new shards).

But yeah, they are few and far inbetween. However, rear armor AV10 vehicles are everywhere. Removing a hull point on a 5+ where half of those get you a roll on the damage table as well is much better than just removing a hull point on a 6+.

Also ID is important against T3, not because there are a bunch of multi wound T3 models around (however S6 thunderlords make scarab farms and ripper swarms cry), but the fact that you remove FNP from T3. The vast majority of the DE codex for example.

Grugknuckle wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:To quote many before me: It’s a No Brainer

I can take that Thunder Lord with a Frost Axe, Bolt Pistol and Artificer Armor, Belt of Russ and get 6 Attacks that wounds him on a 2+.

Frost Weapons also have something that no other weapon the Space Wolves have; Coolness Factor, which to me is more important the Mathhammer. To me this is the No Brainer!

The statistics do not support your position. If you want to kill things better, then a wolf claw and a combi is better than a frost blade and a pistol. A power fist and a storm-shield / combi / storm-bolter is better than a frost axe and a bolt pistol. Also, wolf claws are just as fluffy and cool as frost weapons. But I'll grant that for space wolves, frost weapons are "cooler" than power fists.

That has not been my experience. Now I admit this was in 6th edition, but I have three Thunderlords, one TH/SS the second Paired Power Fist and one with Frost Weapon and a CCW. They always work as a team of three linked by some Thunder Wolf Cavalry, vs. infantry the one with the Frost Blade always killed more than the other two.
Now assuming that the Frost Axe behaves the same I think the trend will stay the same.

Anpu42 wrote:

That has not been my experience. Now I admit this was in 6th edition, but I have three Thunderlords, one TH/SS the second Paired Power Fist and one with Frost Weapon and a CCW. They always work as a team of three linked by some Thunder Wolf Cavalry, vs. infantry the one with the Frost Blade always killed more than the other two.
Now assuming that the Frost Axe behaves the same I think the trend will stay the same.

I never said that you won't kill stuff with frost axes (respectively, frost blades). I said that you will kill the same amount or more stuff with a power fist (respectively wolf claw). So I'm not surprised that three thunderwolves armed as you have them are wrecking face in close combat. On the contrary, I'd be surprised if they didn't!

But the thread was entitled, "Are frost weapons worth it?". So in an attempt to answer that question, I pointed out that a wolf claw is both better and cheaper than a frost blade if you want the AP3 option. While the power fist, is better than the frost axe if you want the AP2 option. The only way that you could even argue that frost axes and frost blades might be better is if you take a pistol with them so that you get an extra attack. When you do that, the frost axe has an edge over the power fist, but the frost blade is still equally effective as the wolf claw but for 5 points more. However, in order to make the frost weapons competitive with the claw/fist, you must take the pistol and THAT means you can't have a shield or any other shooting weapons!

In my opinion, small CC edge given by the frost axe+pistol over the PF+ (anything else), does NOT compensate you for the loss of shooting power. The frost blade + pistol doesn't even have much of a CC edge over a wolf claw, so there's now way it's going to be worth it for 5 points MORE.

Ok I will put this in simple terms.

Yes Frost Weapons can be worth it depending on the job you are giving them and if used properly.
If you use them improperly they are a complete waist of time, energy and points.
The trick is figure out how they work for You!

But I do feel this way about every piece of equipment...