Is the Apothecary ugrande worth it on GK Terminators?

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**brother_zach**

The title sais it all. I just got a new box set of GK Terminators and am wondering if the Apothecary upgrade is worth it. I'm hoping not, honestly, because I think the parts look akward on a model. Any feedback where having the uprade either helped you out or hindered you in some way would be greatly apppreciated.

**GreyHamster**

It makes an expensive paladin unit even more pricy. It's only effective against a very narrow band of weapons that give paladins trouble now, basically plasma. It's an okay choice for a deathstar list. Otherwise you won't use it.

**Mike712**

If you're taking a larger paladin squad I'd say its almost a must have upgrade, if your reasoning is that you don't like the model do a conversion, my paladins are all the old metal GK terminators and my apothecary is made with a plastic space marine terminator power sword arm with the sword clipped off, a bit of trimmed down chainsword and plasma pistol, a filed down deathwath shoulderpad with a red apothecary double helix painted on and a loincloth from a space marine set painted white again with the red double helix, he looks badass.

**Grey Templar**

Just to clarify, only Paladins can take the Apothecary. Regular Terminators don't get it.

**hawkology**

magnets..... take ur time, and magnetize them...

**Jackster**

GreyHamster wrote:It makes an expensive paladin unit even more pricy. It's only effective against a very narrow band of weapons that give paladins trouble now, basically plasma. It's an okay choice for a deathstar list. Otherwise you won't use it.

I disagree, it also helps against high volume of fire that will start taking wounds off termies.

**Flinty**

I'm with Jackstar. Now that only a few power weapons get through 2+ saves I think medics are even more effective now by making it that much harder to kill a terminator. Now, even more than before, weight of fire/CC attacks is what its all about and its good to get a second chance on the few that do get through the armour.

**reps0l**

Flinty wrote:I'm with Jackstar. Now that only a few power weapons get through 2+ saves I think medics are even more effective now by making it that much harder to kill a terminator. Now, even more than before, weight of fire/CC attacks is what its all about and its good to get a second chance on the few that do get through the armour.

I agree. I don't play GK but my goal against terminators is to try to force 1s to be rolled, not negate the 2+ armor save with AP2 fire.

**Goat**

75 points is almost 2 paladins I would only consider an apoth. if the squad was going to be 10 strong. Otherwise, I'd just add 2 more paladins.

**daedalus-templarius**

On a 10 man deathstar with Draigo at the head, its pretty good; especially since Draigo can take FNP against lascannons if he misses with his 3++.

Less than a deathstar, probably not.

**brother_zach**

Thanks for the replies guys. I went ahead and made them sans apothecary, that kit kicked my rear end though. Cut the same thumb twice :/, live and learn.

Running a 10 man Terminator squad never truely crossed my mind until today. It seems like a good way to eat up points and like a very juicy list to play. I'll have to think about getting Draigo though. Running him with that sounds like an easy way to become a TFG.

**daedalus-templarius**

brother_zach wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I went ahead and made them sans apothecary, that kit kicked my rear end though. Cut the same thumb twice :/, live and learn.

Running a 10 man Terminator squad never truely crossed my mind until today. It seems like a good way to eat up points and like a very juicy list to play. I'll have to think about getting Draigo though. Running him with that sounds like an easy way to become a TFG.

Running a competitive and hard to kill squad doesn't make you TFG.

**doc1234**

daedalus-templarius wrote:
brother_zach wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I went ahead and made them sans apothecary, that kit kicked my rear end though. Cut the same thumb twice :/, live and learn.

Running a 10 man Terminator squad never truely crossed my mind until today. It seems like a good way to eat up points and like a very juicy list to play. I'll have to think about getting Draigo though. Running him with that sounds like an easy way to become a TFG.

Running a competitive and hard to kill squad doesn't make you TFG.

only if hes a

about it

**punkow**

10 man paladin squad with Draigo? A easy way to lose every mission except "purge the alien" (in which you actually auto-win). I keep using them and trust me... there's actually a fair chance that they will end the game without a single loss... But that 900 point monstruosity still can't take more than one objective and they still move 6 per turn... For me they are very fun, but they're not as effective as they used to be in 5th when they single handedly took 3 objectives...

**brother_zach**

punkow wrote:10 man paladin squad with Draigo? A easy way to lose every mission except "purge the alien" (in which you actually auto-win). I keep using them and trust me... there's actually a fair chance that they will end the game without a single loss... But that 900 point monstruosity still can't take more than one objective and they still move 6 per turn... For me they are very fun, but they're not as effective as they used to be in 5th when they single handedly took 3 objectives...

Taking objectives concerns me with that list. I thought about having some "cheap" grey knights in power armor just camp on my objectives. I think for a 1500 point game thats a bit too crazy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

doc1234 wrote:
daedalus-templarius wrote:
brother_zach wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I went ahead and made them sans apothecary, that kit kicked my rear end though. Cut the same thumb twice :/, live and learn.

Running a 10 man Terminator squad never truely crossed my mind until today. It seems like a good way to eat up points and like a very juicy list to play. I'll have to think about getting Draigo though. Running him with that sounds like an easy way to become a TFG.

Running a competitive and hard to kill squad doesn't make you TFG.

only if hes a about it

There is a very thin line. One which I could easily see myself crossing after sinking that much cash on war dudes haha.

**Blood and Slaughter**

10 man paladin squad with Draigo? A easy way to lose every mission except "purge the alien"

Well Relic and Purge are relatively easy to win because a large, very hard to kill scoring unit is a huge asset in both.

In the other missions you can make 1-3 dreadnoughts or dreadknights scoring. In Big Guns all your dreadnoughts score anyway, as do Ravens and Interceptors in The Scouring. And of course you can always combat squad the paladins if you feel the need. Paying attention to where you place objectives will pay dividends.

Really the only game that presents a big problem with regard to winning is The Emperor's Will where the two objectives are likely to be far from each other and an enemy strong in scoring units can flood both with troops and contestors.

**doc1234**

brother_zach wrote:
punkow wrote:10 man paladin squad with Draigo? A easy way to lose every mission except "purge the alien" (in which you actually auto-win). I keep using them and trust me... there's actually a fair chance that they will end the game without a single loss... But that 900 point monstruosity still can't take more than one objective and they still move 6 per turn... For me they are very fun, but they're not as effective as they used to be in 5th when they single handedly took 3 objectives...

Taking objectives concerns me with that list. I thought about having some "cheap" grey knights in power armor just camp on my objectives. I think for a 1500 point game thats a bit too crazy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

doc1234 wrote:
daedalus-templarius wrote:
brother_zach wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I went ahead and made them sans apothecary, that kit kicked my rear end though. Cut the same thumb twice :/, live and learn.

Running a 10 man Terminator squad never truely crossed my mind until today. It seems like a good way to eat up points and like a very juicy list to play. I'll have to think about getting Draigo though. Running him with that sounds like an easy way to become a TFG.

Running a competitive and hard to kill squad doesn't make you TFG.

only if hes a about it

There is a very thin line. One which I could easily see myself crossing after sinking that much cash on war dudes haha.

The thin lines works either way, yeah as you said, youv invested time and money into your hobby, your allowed to want to win, and feel good when you do. But theres a difference between a little cheer to yourself, congratulating your opononent/shaking hand, and general good sportsmanship vs say, being a total donkey cave. The one i cant stand is the guy who beats you once, and then for ever on sneers at the person they beat and act all "lol your beneath me because i radomly rolled a 6 at the right time once". THAT pisses me off more than anything. Il congratulate you if you win, offer some advice on kicking my backside if you lose, but seriously, dont drag it out.

heh sorry for the rant

**brother_zach**

doc1234 wrote:
brother_zach wrote:
punkow wrote:10 man paladin squad with Draigo? A easy way to lose every mission except "purge the alien" (in which you actually auto-win). I keep using them and trust me... there's actually a fair chance that they will end the game without a single loss... But that 900 point monstruosity still can't take more than one objective and they still move 6 per turn... For me they are very fun, but they're not as effective as they used to be in 5th when they single handedly took 3 objectives...

Taking objectives concerns me with that list. I thought about having some "cheap" grey knights in power armor just camp on my objectives. I think for a 1500 point game thats a bit too crazy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

doc1234 wrote:
daedalus-templarius wrote:
brother_zach wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I went ahead and made them sans apothecary, that kit kicked my rear end though. Cut the same thumb twice :/, live and learn.

Running a 10 man Terminator squad never truely crossed my mind until today. It seems like a good way to eat up points and like a very juicy list to play. I'll have to think about getting Draigo though. Running him with that sounds like an easy way to become a TFG.

Running a competitive and hard to kill squad doesn't make you TFG.

only if hes a about it

There is a very thin line. One which I could easily see myself crossing after sinking that much cash on war dudes haha.

The thin lines works either way, yeah as you said, youv invested time and money into your hobby, your allowed to want to win, and feel good when you do. But theres a difference between a little cheer to yourself, congratulating your opononent/shaking hand, and general good sportsmanship vs say, being a total donkey cave. The one i cant stand is the guy who beats you once, and then for ever on sneers at the person they beat and act all "lol your beneath me because i radomly rolled a 6 at the right time once". THAT pisses me off more than anything. Il congratulate you if you win, offer some advice on kicking my backside if you lose, but seriously, dont drag it out.

heh sorry for the rant

All very sound logic. I'm not too sure how the meta is in my area but I'm sure opponents would grow tired of playing against that list. "Oh look, your Psycannons forced my Tactical squad to lose Morale........AGAIN" kinda stuff.

But after painting sooo many power weapons (and still not being done with them), burning up points with super expensive models does sound like a blessing now.

**Kaldor**

Goat wrote:75 points is almost 2 paladins I would only consider an apoth. if the squad was going to be 10 strong. Otherwise, I'd just add 2 more paladins.

I think this is they key.

Will those 5+ saves, save more 'wounds' than they cost? If you make three FNP saves during the course of the game, the Apothecary has pretty much paid for itself.

HOWEVER!

Unlike regular Terminators, Paladins have two wounds and the ability to spread them around. So they can afford to take three wounds (that the Apothecary would have saved) and still be fighting at full efficiency. In fact, if you haven't bought the Apothecary, you will have more bodies in the unit, meaning more shots/attacks. But at the same time, by turn four or five you're going to be looking at a unit that is very battered and it's every wound is really going to hurt.

I think you really need to weigh up the role of the Paladins in your army. If they're going to be an Immovable Object, then the Apothecary is a must. If they're going to be an Irresistible Force, you're probably better off with the extra bodies on the table.

To clarify, an Immovable Object is a unit that goes somewhere, and stays there. It knocks a unit off an objective, then it claims that objective, come hell or high water. Use it to take a central objective, or claim ground deep inside the enemy territory. An Irresistible Force is a beat-stick. You use it to hunt down enemy units and trash them. Deploying out of a vehicle or deepstrike is usually a given, or even teleporting with the Librarian.

There is a fair amount of crossover, and a large Paladin unit can fulfill both rolls comfortably, but if you're only take four or five Paladins, you really need to think about what you're doing with them.

**sudojoe**

Here's from the main GK thread section on pallies -

Paladins - with all being characters and look out sir rolls, they can still do very well despite the lack of wound allocation. Overall still a nerf given that Th/SS terminators and meganobs are going to do better against them than before. Even number of meganobs will win combat now a days. The power weapon changes hurt them vs other terminators and your local meta may start to shift to have alot more plasma. Too expensive and slow at lower points to grab objectives though.

General concensus is - psycannons are awesome. Assignment of wounds on 6's = rending and you get to take out who you want out of an enemy squad via shooting. 10 man blocks and 5's both work but will need different loadouts. Having 1-2 solo paladins to deep strike or camp objectives are very useful. No need for brotherhood banner if only 5 man. Lots of debate on if apothecary is required. Some say not worth it due to FnP nerfs but others really like him still because now you get FnP vs plasma. Also unclear right now (big arguments on YMDC) on if say Draigo will get FnP vs things like str 10 because of eternal warrior. May roll off vs your opponent before play to decide how to rule on that as there doesn't seem to be a concensus atm. Generally if you have a 10 man squad, definately get an apothecary and banner. Not sure if worth it for 5's. Also MC'ing psycannons is almost always worth it. 4 MC psycannons is roughly 5 psycannons (also 20 points) totally worth it.

Loadouts seem typically to be maxing out psycannons and then making sure at least 1 hammer, if 10 man, definately a banner, and then probably 1 guy with a staff and rest halberds. with the way wounds are allocated now, that one staff guy can tank for the whole group for a while. Swords also are useful but probably should take them in bulk (I.e. everyone with same save) that way you can allocate via Look out sir AFTER the armor/invul save. (if all guys are the same, you can shuffle the wound after, if different armor save, you have to allocate first, then roll your save)

Also of note, with warp charges, you can shoot the holocaust ability (like say with the apothecary) but you won't get to hammer hand in your assault phase or activate force weapons even with a banner. Though you can do those things on the enemy's phase as you get a new warp charge on their turn too. As a solo'din, don't forget you have holocaust too!

The Apothecary costs 55+75 points so it's a hefty 130 point investment

Roughly improves your save from 83.33% chance to save low power (non-AP2 shots) by 1/3 so roughly total of 88.88% chance to save any particular shot.

vs melta, and other str 8, it doesn't help at all

vs plasma - 33.33% chance to save (with 5+ invul save), FnP improves that to 44.44% to save - roughly meaning 1 plasma shot has 50.41% of doing a wound at bs 4, while with FnP, that drops to 42.01%.

Vs say a plasma vet squad at rapid fire range - 6 shots fired, 5.10% to do 5 wounds, and 20.81% to do 4 wounds (2 models) with FnP.
w/o FnP - 6 shots, 11.33% to do 5 wounds, and 35.15% to do 4 wounds (2 models)

Hope this helps