Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have not seen this discussed after some looking around the treads.

While researching my Space Wolf Synergy Thread I notice something under the 6th Edition BRB USR Concussive. It says:
“A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following Assault phase.”

Hull Points are not Wounds, therefore Dreadnaughts and Vehicles are unaffected by the USR Concussive.

Am I reading this correct?

If thats all there is to the rule, then I'd say you are right. Make sure you aren't missing a sentence afterwards or anything though, I hate saying that and then there being another sentence proving the OP and I wrong.

Entirely correct. Of course walkers have never cared about TH additional effects - in 5th you only shook vehicles without a WS

This makes me sad, there is no other sentence at the end, that is it. Chainfists for my tank hunting termies then.

Big deal, Dreadnoughts still hate all those Str8 hits you did to them.

No more shaken from Thunder hammers. Better off just hunting monstrous creatures instead

Grey Templar wrote:Big deal, Dreadnoughts still hate all those Str8 hits you did to them.

They do. But I would take S8 +2d6 over S8 +d6 any day. Especially against the Ironclad. Armor 12 is still only 33% chance to penetrate.

True, but you don't really have the option for both on the same unit. Hammernators are stuck with THs for anti-tank.

Grey Templar wrote:True, but you don't really have the option for both on the same unit. Hammernators are stuck with THs for anti-tank.

This is true. Its not a bad thing to have S8 against a vehicle. I'll still try to kill a vehicle with the TH, I just won't like it.

rogueeyes wrote:No more shaken from Thunder hammers. Better off just hunting monstrous creatures instead

You NEVER got shaken frmo TH, not in 5th certainly and not in 4th, from memory.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Big deal, Dreadnoughts still hate all those Str8 hits you did to them.

They do. But I would take S8 +2d6 over S8 +d6 any day. Especially against the Ironclad. Armor 12 is still only 33% chance to penetrate.

depending on Army(lets assume nilla Marines) then 5 TH+SS termies swinging 2x each on a Dread will equate to about 5 hits(WS4 vs WS4), you then have a 50% chance to damage with 66% of those 50 that hit Penetrating(Average 2.5 damage results; 1.6666 of which penetrate) meaning your termies should, conservatively, cause 2 hull points removed, and 1 roll on the penetrating chart. That is for 200 Points.

If you have 5 Tac-termies, 4 with Chainfists, you have just spent 20 extra points for a complete, just about guaranteed destruction(91.66% chance to damage at all per hit).

But in the end it is the T-Hammers that are more survivable.

The Dread will have at least 2 attacks, 1 of which will hit and there is only a 16.666% chance that 1 hit will not wound. The S10 wound is then saved 2/3 of the time by the T-hammer termie, but the Chain fist only has it saved 33.333% of the time. Meaning that the Chain fister is twice as likely to die which will bring his team down to 6 attacks, 3 of which hit, 2.75 of which damage. End result might still be the Dread-struction, but it still cost more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:No more shaken from Thunder hammers. Better off just hunting monstrous creatures instead

You NEVER got shaken frmo TH, not in 5th certainly and not in 4th, from memory.

You did in 5th. Positive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Big deal, Dreadnoughts still hate all those Str8 hits you did to them.

They do. But I would take S8 +2d6 over S8 +d6 any day. Especially against the Ironclad. Armor 12 is still only 33% chance to penetrate.

depending on Army(lets assume nilla Marines) then 5 TH+SS termies swinging 2x each on a Dread will equate to about 5 hits(WS4 vs WS4), you then have a 50% chance to damage with 66% of those 50 that hit Penetrating(Average 2.5 damage results; 1.6666 of which penetrate) meaning your termies should, conservatively, cause 2 hull points removed, and 1 roll on the penetrating chart. That is for 200 Points.

If you have 5 Tac-termies, 4 with Chainfists, you have just spent 20 extra points for a complete, just about guaranteed destruction(91.66% chance to damage at all per hit).

But in the end it is the T-Hammers that are more survivable.

The Dread will have at least 2 attacks, 1 of which will hit and there is only a 16.666% chance that 1 hit will not wound. The S10 wound is then saved 2/3 of the time by the T-hammer termie, but the Chain fist only has it saved 33.333% of the time. Meaning that the Chain fister is twice as likely to die which will bring his team down to 6 attacks, 3 of which hit, 2.75 of which damage. End result might still be the Dread-struction, but it still cost more.

oh sure, bring in statistics to make me look silly.

Captain - youre wrong. Positive. You only gave a stunned result to vehicles without a WS You are wrong.

You are all wrong, a vehicle without an Initiative that suffered any sort of damage result from a thunder hammer was automatically crew shaken. Pg. 42 of the 5th edition rulebook

nosferatu1001 wrote:Captain - youre wrong. Positive. You only gave a stunned result to vehicles without a WS You are wrong.

5th Edition Rulebook, page 73, "Immobilised and/or stunned walkers fight in close combat with one less attack than usual (to a minimum of 1)..." That's from the Walkers section of the rules. If you cannot give a stunned result to a Walker how does a stunned result affect them? Positive.

Antivas, you realise that nos is talking about the stun resulting from a Thunder Hammer, not Stun results in general?

Happyjew wrote:Antivas, you realise that nos is talking about the stun resulting from a Thunder Hammer, not Stun results in general?

The distinction is not relevant. The rules for TH say nothing about WS. It says initiative value, nothing about WS. I don't even know why we are talking about 5th ed, I just am OCD about being right. Which I am.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Antivas, you realise that nos is talking about the stun resulting from a Thunder Hammer, not Stun results in general?

The distinction is not relevant. The rules for TH say nothing about WS. It says initiative value, nothing about WS. I don't even know why we are talking about 5th ed, I just am OCD about being right. Which I am.

Wrong. Read page 42, Thunder Hammers, final sentence. "Against vehicles with no initiative value". Walkers in 5th edition did NOT get SHAKEN from TH. Similarly in 4th. (I was wrong in thinking it required a vehicle to have a WS)

You stated TH shook walkers in 5th. They didnt. Absolutely 100% they did not.

"Fixed"

I was talking about in 6th Edtion.

Yes, and we're pointing out that its not a change from 5th OR 4th

Captain Antivas wrote: I just am OCD about being right. Which I am.

Sucks when it turns out you're actually wrong and you've been insisting a point like people around you are just slow, eh?
I know, I'm like that too.

Purifier wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote: I just am OCD about being right. Which I am.

Sucks when it turns out you're actually wrong and you've been insisting a point like people around you are just slow, eh?
I know, I'm like that too.

It happens. In this case we were both wrong. And I am ok with that.

I was wrong as to the requirement for ignoring Shaken, you were just entirely wrong.

And yet the world keeps turning.

I could argue this further but if me being entirely wrong makes you feel better than you can have it. I don't need it.

Mannahnin wrote:And yet the world keeps turning.

You're lying - every time one of those three has an argument, the entire universe is instantly at Absolute Zero (all motion is stopped) until it is resolved

God forbid one of them be wrong or we might all turn into Bose-Einstein Condensates.

Curious... In the vehicles and assaults section of the BRB, pg 76. It says that vehicles count glancing hits as 1 wound and penetrating hits as 2 wounds.
If they counts as wounds does not the concussive rule apply to walkers?

No. Because they don't count as wounds, except for a specific and limited purpose, at a specific and limited time, which is defined in the rest of that sentence.

Mannahnin wrote:No. Because they don't count as wounds, except for a specific and limited purpose, at a specific and limited time, which is defined in the rest of that sentence.

Does the Concussive USR have a specific time that it comes into play or is it does it apply to what happened in the assault phase as a whole?

Concussive requires the model to suffer an unsaved wound. A walker never does. Instead it suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, neither of which can trigger Concussive, but each of which counts as a specified number of wounds for the specific purpose of calculating who won a given round of assault.