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So I've found several references to how MSS scarabs work with challenges, but with hypnotic gaze, I just want to make sure I get this right.

Example #1
Necron unit with MSS is charged by a squad of genestealers with a broodlord. So the order would be:

1. Charge is declared
2. Overwatch is taken if applicable
3. Charge distance rolled (assume it makes it)
4. Charge move is made

This is where things get tricky, as there are 3 abilities that happen at the start of the fight subphase: Hypnotic Gaze, MSS and challenges. As per pg. 9 of the rulebook, for simultaneous actions the player whose turn it is gets to decide in which order they happen. So could the 'nid player have it proceed like this:

5. Chooses to have MSS go first, and genestealers are the only ones in base contact with the MSS, or that cryptek is in the back somewhere and is not in base contact with anyone. MSS is resolved.
6. Issue a challenge, move characters into base to base (if accepted)
7. Hypnotic Gaze is resolved (psycic test, deny the witch, leadership roll off).

and of course the opposite

Example #2
Necron unit with MSS charges a squad of genestealers with a broodlord:
1. Charge is declared
2. Overwatch is taken if applicable
3. Charge distance rolled (assume it makes it)
4. Charge move is made

5. Chooses to have Hypnotic Gaze go first, and normal necrons are the only ones in base contact with the Broodlord. Hypnotic Gaze is resolved (psycic test, deny the witch, leadership roll off).
6. Issue a challenge, move characters into base to base (if accepted)
7. MSS is rolled for

First off, MSS seem to be extremely powerful in CC now, since they can take out a character with ease. I lost 2 broodlords and prime to this madness yesterday, before trying to figure out how to counter it. The problems I see here are:

If you make your opponents ability go first, and THEN challenge them, do they have any incentive to accept the challenge? Yes, I know they can then be struck by combatants, and cannot take part in the assault, but at least against MSS that 3D6 leadership roll is pretty hard to beat so it's probably safer to stay out of the fight. However, that basically means you give your opponent a free MSS/HG before they decline the challenge.

Interesting, but regardless of the tactics, does this seem like the correct order of operations for these 2 scenarios?

Yes, given they all go at the same time the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

At least MSS was fixed in the FAQ update so it hits a random model in B2B.
Also (and don't flame me for this question) doesn't MSS say instead of making it's attacks they can elect to use MSS? Which to me would suggest that MSS happens at that models Int. Again I don't play crons so dont kill me for a question.

If they fail the ld test they do the D3 hits at tehir normal Init, as it is when they attack

Not to post too directly from the codex, but the important passage for MSS reads:

At the start of the Assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the MSS. That models must immedietly...

And then goes on to describe the power. The exact same wording is in the nid codex for the psychic hypnotic gaze skill:

This psychic power is used during your Assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made

And actually, that wording just reminded me that it's ONLY during MY assault phase, so in the situation in which the Necrons charge the genestealers, I wouldn't get to go at all I think?

Wow, that makes MSS super powerful against pretty much any CC army now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, I'm actually just finding out some more about this timing. The 6e 'nid FAQ actually changes the first sentence to read like this:

This psychic power is used at the beginning of your Fight sub-phase, after any challenges have been issued and accepted or declined.

The Necron FAQ changes MSS to:

At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshcakle scarabs...

Let me parse how this changes the order quick.

There is one issue, and it is buried in the Tyranid FAQ.

If it is my turn I can force the MSS player to activate MSS before chalanges are issued as both MSS and chalanges are done at the begining of the Fight-Sub phase (language from Necron FAQ).

However the wording on Hypnotic Gaze (per the Tyrnid FAQ is diffrent). The wording is "Begining of the Fight-sub phase, after any challanges have been issued or declined."

That means that Gaze will always go off in a challange. MSS can go off in a chalange, but the rules allow the player who's turn it is to decide if they want it to go off before or after challanges.

The only thing is this is all academic (but this is YMDC) as Hypnotic Gaze only works on the Tyranid players turn and they should always make MSS go off before decalring challanges.

Ok, so re-reading the challenge rule, it states that challenges happen at the start of the Fight Sub Phase. So it seems with the modifier on HG, this is how it would work in the fight subphase:

'Nids Charging:

5. Force MSS to go off against any base contact models first
6. Issue challenge
7. If accepted, HG goes off against just the model accepting the challenge
8. If declined, HG will go off against whatever is in base contact with the BL, and the other character won't be able to fight.

'Crons Charging

6. Issue challenge
7. If accepted, MSS go off
8. If declined, BL can't do anything, and MSS goes off against 1 model in base contact randomly.

Now, this raises yet another question. If for some reason the nid accepts the challenge in the second example, and the 'nid fails the 3D6 leadership roll, will that BL get a chance to do HG, or will the order of powers dictate that since MSS went first, they can't use Hypnotic Gaze afterwards?

Consequently, if the nid charges, he can force the MSS to go off before the challenge (and if he isn't in base contact with anything, it's wasted), and then make the challenge, because HG happens AFTER challenges are accepted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, so with the new wording in the FAQ, when it says 'Your Fight Sub Phase', does that seem to indicate only on your turn, or just when it comes to your turn in the fight sub-phase, so it could be on either sides turn?

As a 'nid player, I would lean towards being able to cast it even on the opponents turn, but I guess I would also have to look at warp charges, and see when those are technically restocked, because that would be the big indicator.

Regardless, those MSS are seriously ridiculous, and I have no way to easily beat them. You can't take a MC alone into combat against the necrons, I think there are only a few strats:

1. Flyrant with devourers tries to get Precision Strikes against the dude with the MSS

2. Be the one charging, and make sure you either don't move into base to base with the MSS dude with your BL first, or if at all possible avoid it

3. Try to tarpit a lichguard squad with tons and tons and tons of various gaunts, who have no character to challenge etc.

Otherwise, damn, those things just rip you up.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warp charges are regenerated at the end of each turn, and by definition a turn is a player turn. It doesn't specify, so the BL would in fact have a warp charge during the other players turn, even if it used one.

I dunno, I think the 'your fight sub-phase' just refers to when you get to go in the fight sub phase, as it makes no reference to your player turn.

It appears that if the MSS isnt in B2B contact after a MC charges, MC player can say the MSS must go first (against no one), then can issue a challenge, or accept from the Necron character.

Grey Knecrons wrote:It appears that if the MSS isnt in B2B contact after a MC charges, MC player can say the MSS must go first (against no one), then can issue a challenge, or accept from the Necron character.

That is correct. If there is no one in BtB then MSS can be triggered with no targets.

however.... if you charge my unit of necrons, and dont make BTB contact with the lord, deleberatly avoiding his MSS, ...

- nids charge. avoid the MSS lord.
- nids get a chance to challenge. they dont, now the necron player can challenge.
-nids have to accept and fight, (then MSS goes off) or decline the challange and a character is removed from the fight. \
- then in pile in section the lord moves in, triggers the MSS and there you go.


as a necron player, i will say that MSS have won me games. its the best 15pts ever spent on anything anywhere, and imho at he very least your overlords should be "overlord, warscythe, MSS = 115" MINIMUM. add a CCB and other wargear to taste. royal court lords also do well with it. i run a 5 man tesla immortal squad with a lancetek and lord with orb, WS and MSS and that unit is crazy good. they get great shooting, are ok in CC (because of that lord and his WS/MSS) and can take a decent beating.

i will also add i think MSS are so good it is definitly borderline OP, or broken. when something is that effective and that good it certainly seems like something close to OP land. - however i will counter that by pointing out majority if not all necrons are init 2. they go last against EVERYTHING except PF. MSS is the only way to really "stem the tide" of attacks coming in. its not about your guy killing his own unit...its about 1 less guy striking me in the face before i get a chance to fight back. - if that one guy happens to be a MC or character then AWSOME. otherwise, as long as it works im happy.

- as a note... to BEAT MSS.... just shoot them. dont get in combat, dont charge, just shoot the feth out of that unit. if you have to charge, do it with multiple units, and make sure you engage the OL or lord with "grunts" to limit the chances of it going off on a character. dont challange, and when he does, accept it with your unit champ/squad leader, and not your expensive character.

Of course this assuming that the unit assaulting has a character with it.

DarthSpader wrote:however.... if you charge my unit of necrons, and dont make BTB contact with the lord, deleberatly avoiding his MSS, ...

- nids charge. avoid the MSS lord.
- nids get a chance to challenge. they dont, now the necron player can challenge.
-nids have to accept and fight, (then MSS goes off) or decline the challange and a character is removed from the fight. \
- then in pile in section the lord moves in, triggers the MSS and there you go.


as a necron player, i will say that MSS have won me games. its the best 15pts ever spent on anything anywhere, and imho at he very least your overlords should be "overlord, warscythe, MSS = 115" MINIMUM. add a CCB and other wargear to taste. royal court lords also do well with it. i run a 5 man tesla immortal squad with a lancetek and lord with orb, WS and MSS and that unit is crazy good. they get great shooting, are ok in CC (because of that lord and his WS/MSS) and can take a decent beating.

i will also add i think MSS are so good it is definitly borderline OP, or broken. when something is that effective and that good it certainly seems like something close to OP land. - however i will counter that by pointing out majority if not all necrons are init 2. they go last against EVERYTHING except PF. MSS is the only way to really "stem the tide" of attacks coming in. its not about your guy killing his own unit...its about 1 less guy striking me in the face before i get a chance to fight back. - if that one guy happens to be a MC or character then AWSOME. otherwise, as long as it works im happy.

- as a note... to BEAT MSS.... just shoot them. dont get in combat, dont charge, just shoot the feth out of that unit. if you have to charge, do it with multiple units, and make sure you engage the OL or lord with "grunts" to limit the chances of it going off on a character. dont challange, and when he does, accept it with your unit champ/squad leader, and not your expensive character.

The issue here is that if the Nid player is charging you, he decides the order of thing going off. He will always make the MSS go off before challenges if the MSS is not in BTB. Then if he challenges and you accept you will have to survive a turn vs his MC attacking before you can use them. By then it should be too late for most.

MSS cant even trigger if not in BTB. and each init step has a pile in and fight sub phase, so MSS can not go off at init 10, then have a chance (due to pile ins) at a lower init. at wich point it triggers.

MSS goes off at the start of the Fight Subphase. If there is no one in BTB, then it wont go off until the next Fight subphase. It doesnt wait until a lower Init step to go off.

DarthSpader wrote:MSS cant even trigger if not in BTB.

This is correct.

DarthSpader wrote:and each init step has a pile in and fight sub phase, so MSS can not go off at init 10, then have a chance (due to pile ins) at a lower init. at wich point it triggers.

And this one is completely wrong. Init steps do not have fight sub-phases. Init steps happen at the fight sub-phase, major difference. So it works exactly as Fragile said: if no-one is in BTB, then MSS cannot trigger.

DarthSpader wrote:MSS cant even trigger if not in BTB. and each init step has a pile in and fight sub phase, so MSS can not go off at init 10, then have a chance (due to pile ins) at a lower init. at wich point it triggers.

Rereasd MSS. "Start of fight subphase", which is before init step pile in - it is before Init10
If there is noone in btb with your lord, and the non-necron player charges, i choose for MSS to resolve BEFORE challenges, as is my right.