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On the weekend my squad of 30 Ork boys with a Nob declared a charge against a squad of Legion of the Damned, one of the squad members had a flamer, and he used over watch, we hadn't done it yet and i'm pretty sure what we did was horribly wrong. The wording of wall of death is complete fail, and i dont understand any of it, but what we got out of it is that the player controlling the template weapon rolls a dice, a D3 in this case, my buddy rolled a 3, so he got 2 Hits on the charging unit. Now my unit of 30 boys, this would mean by following the wording that all 30 boys take 2 hits, from the flamer ( S 4, Ap 5 )

I just want to note that he killed 23 boys after rolling to wound, he got 60 hits automatically according to the D 3. So my next question is how can an orc player win against any player who has at least 1 flamer in each unit.... a wraith lord with two flamers would get a minimum of 1 hit on the entire unit X2, soooo this seems like a broken rule, because it says dont use the Template....

D3 Hits on the Charging unit, not models. Legion of the Damned are also slow and purposeful, they can't overwatch.

The above is correct.

He would have not been able to overwatch since the unit is Slow and Purposeful.

IF he had been able to overwatch, he would have only gotten two hits against the squad. Not two hits per model.

What rule or wording made it seem like D3 hits per model and not against the unit?

Isn't the "Unit" referring to the squad? so how many models does a flame template hit on over watch? i thought it stated that you dont use the template? I'm pretty confused now haha, thanks for the replies.

Yes, the word "Unit" is referring to the squad as a whole. Not to each individual model. When the squad takes D3 hits, you roll to wound and then allocate just like normal shooting.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Isn't the "Unit" referring to the squad?

Yes, the unit is the squad.

so how many models does a flame template hit on over watch? i thought it stated that you dont use the template?

It doesn't use the template. It inflicts D3 hits on the unit. Not on each model in the unit.

Yea, the wall of death isn't at all as frightening as you experienced it. I hate that your game suffered that rule misunderstanding. I think they added the auto d3 hits to the unit since the potential charge range of a unit now exceeds the length of the actual template. Taking a unit of Burnaz is now even more fun than before thanks to wall of death!

Ouch....I facepalmed too hard.

It's two hits against the unit...not each model.

IT is really potent for anything that can take a bunch of flamer templates becasue of the auto hits following the rules for any template wepon fired when 6th came out it made flamers of tzeentch even more apealing even before the updated version. d3 hits woudning on 4's no armor save allowed at all, and it made liquifier guns frighting to charge.

I must be having a massive brain fart here guys but, the "Unit" and "Squad" in warhammer is the same? so as i mentioned above, if the "Unit" takes d3 of 3, 2 Hits each ( 30 models in the "Unit" << ) then they all get hit two times? i'm sooo lost right now lmao i'm sure i'm overlooking something or just totally being ignorant right now lol speak to me like a 4 year old please!

It's two hits against the unit...not each model.

But theres 2 hits on the "Unit" which is > 30 models < .. so wouldn't it have the same effect? theres still 60 hits are there not? when you roll the dice theres still 60 rolls to wound ..

D3 hits total for the unit. Not per model.

Sorry, but I really can't see the confusion.

A unit is a group of models. The unit gets hit twice.

How in the world can you read that as being 2 hits on each model in the squad?

Frecklesonfire wrote:I must be having a massive brain fart here guys but, the "Unit" and "Squad" in warhammer is the same? so as i mentioned above, if the "Unit" takes d3 of 3, 2 Hits each ( 30 models in the "Unit" << ) then they all get hit two times? i'm sooo lost right now lmao i'm sure i'm overlooking something or just totally being ignorant right now lol speak to me like a 4 year old please!

It's two hits against the unit...not each model.

But theres 2 hits on the "Unit" which is > 30 models < .. so wouldn't it have the same effect? theres still 60 hits are there not? when you roll the dice theres still 60 rolls to wound ..

I shoot you with two heavy bolters. I get lucky and hit 6 times. There are 6 hits against your unit. Same concept. With the changes to wound allocation all hits are against the unit then allocated from there.

The unit suffers d3 hits =/= every model in the unit suffers d3 hits. If you read it to be so you are doing it wrong.

Frecklesonfire wrote:I must be having a massive brain fart here guys but, the "Unit" and "Squad" in warhammer is the same? so as i mentioned above, if the "Unit" takes d3 of 3, 2 Hits each ( 30 models in the "Unit" << ) then they all get hit two times? i'm sooo lost right now lmao i'm sure i'm overlooking something or just totally being ignorant right now lol speak to me like a 4 year old please!

When a 'unit' gets hit by 2 Bolter shots, how many hits does the unit suffer? A total of 2, or 2 per model in the unit?

The flamer in this case is inflicting D3 hits on the unit as a whole. Let's say that's the only weapon that hits during the overwatch firing. That means you'd take those two hits, then roll to wound with them, and if they successfully cause wounds, then you'd take saves and remove casualties if necessary.

In other words, D3 hits on a unit only means D3 hits on the unit as a whole, which 99% of the time means the most wounds you can inflict with these 3 hits on a unit are...3.

1 Boy = Model
29 boyz + Nob = unit

Spot the guy who played the computer game before the table top one.

I was the same though. Using units and squads as different things. And then they're actually the same for the TTG and a single guy is a model.

OMFG i dont know how i missed this or overlooked it i must have been exhausted, how embarrassing... lol well thanks guys for clearing that up o man i better stay clear of the forums for a while lololol

Follow the general rule of

If something seems incredibly insanely ridiculously broken, Youre probably doing it wrong

In your example it was 1 flamer, vs 30 boys - say he rolled a 6, and you would take 90 hits? that cant be right... but

Lets push the example and say that he had a full flamer unit
10 flamers vs 30 boys and he rolled a bunch of 6s... You would take 900 hits? now thats just silly

Talamare wrote:Follow the general rule of

If something seems incredibly insanely ridiculously broken, Youre probably doing it wrong

In your example it was 1 flamer, vs 30 boys - say he rolled a 6, and you would take 90 hits? that cant be right... but

Lets push the example and say that he had a full flamer unit
10 flamers vs 30 boys and he rolled a bunch of 6s... You would take 900 hits? now thats just silly

Yeah, your above example does look a little silly.

However, 15 burnaboys in a wagon that cover 8 models with a template scores 120 hits. Not shots, hits. That sounds a bit excessive as well, but that is the rule.

There are some really out there things that can happen. This is 40K after all.

Jayden63 wrote:

Talamare wrote:Follow the general rule of

If something seems incredibly insanely ridiculously broken, Youre probably doing it wrong

In your example it was 1 flamer, vs 30 boys - say he rolled a 6, and you would take 90 hits? that cant be right... but

Lets push the example and say that he had a full flamer unit
10 flamers vs 30 boys and he rolled a bunch of 6s... You would take 900 hits? now thats just silly

Yeah, your above example does look a little silly.

However, 15 burnaboys in a wagon that cover 8 models with a template scores 120 hits. Not shots, hits. That sounds a bit excessive as well, but that is the rule.

There are some really out there things that can happen. This is 40K after all.

Dont forget 50 man guard squads with 1st rank, 2nd rank... 100-150 lasgun shots
Tho against a standard Marine, thats only 8 kills (5 if youre using conscripts)

So if a unit of 9 Flamers of Tzeench get charged, does each model get D3 overwatch shots because each model uses a flamer template?

Yes. That is correct. Breath of Chaos is a template weapon so it uses the Wall of Death rule.

Captain Antivas wrote:Yes. That is correct. Breath of Chaos is a template weapon so it uses the Wall of Death rule.

Actually, this is one of those cases where the rules of the weapon don't really work with the Overwatch rules.

That's because Breath of Chaos is written so that it doesn't cause hits (just that each model under the template suffers a wound on a 4+). So the fact that Wall of Death inflicts D3 wounds per Breath of Chaos doesn't actually translate into anything RAW, because 'hits' caused by Breath of Chaos are meaningless as the weapon has no Strength or any direct way to convert hits into wounds.

Now, I think we can all connect the dots and figure out that each hit should then cause a wound on a 4+, but that's not how the rule is actually written.

And I don't think this is likely to be the only case like this if we dig deep enough...I think the overwatch rule isn't written robustly enough to cover some of the strange weapon rules out there, which leaves us to wonder if these weapons are just not supposed to do anything when firing overwatch, or whether we're supposed to take the leap and transpose the necessary gap to just get the weapon to work somehow.

yakface wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Yes. That is correct. Breath of Chaos is a template weapon so it uses the Wall of Death rule.

Actually, this is one of those cases where the rules of the weapon don't really work with the Overwatch rules.

That's because Breath of Chaos is written so that it doesn't cause hits (just that each model under the template suffers a wound on a 4+). So the fact that Wall of Death inflicts D3 wounds per Breath of Chaos doesn't actually translate into anything RAW, because 'hits' caused by Breath of Chaos are meaningless as the weapon has no Strength or any direct way to convert hits into wounds.

Now, I think we can all connect the dots and figure out that each hit should then cause a wound on a 4+, but that's not how the rule is actually written.

And I don't think this is likely to be the only case like this if we dig deep enough...I think the overwatch rule isn't written robustly enough to cover some of the strange weapon rules out there, which leaves us to wonder if these weapons are just not supposed to do anything when firing overwatch, or whether we're supposed to take the leap and transpose the necessary gap to just get the weapon to work somehow.

There is no gap. Having special rules that dictate when and how a wound is taken does not negate the fact that Breath of Chaos is a template weapon and functions exactly like every other template weapon out there. In fact, let me quote for you:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 73, Breath of Chaos wrote:
The Daemon can exhale a cloud of toxic gas or a cloud of mutagenic vapours against which no fortification is proof. Breath of Chaos is a template weapon.

It is not counted as a template weapon, it is not treated as a template weapon, it is a template weapon. There is no gap, the RAW are clear. Flamers have the same rule. All models under the template take a wound on a roll of a die that is determined by the str vs toughness of the model. Having a set modifier does not negate the fact that just like all other template weapons anything even partially under the template is hit and suffers a wound on a certain die roll result.

Basic Rule Book, Page 52, Template Weapon wrote:
Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template...Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

Thanks very much guys. Can't wait for my friends to charge my Flamers...lol

Captain Antivas wrote:
There is no gap. Having special rules that dictate when and how a wound is taken does not negate the fact that Breath of Chaos is a template weapon and functions exactly like every other template weapon out there. In fact, let me quote for you:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 73, Breath of Chaos wrote:
The Daemon can exhale a cloud of toxic gas or a cloud of mutagenic vapours against which no fortification is proof. Breath of Chaos is a template weapon.

It is not counted as a template weapon, it is not treated as a template weapon, it is a template weapon. There is no gap, the RAW are clear. Flamers have the same rule. All models under the template take a wound on a roll of a die that is determined by the str vs toughness of the model. Having a set modifier does not negate the fact that just like all other template weapons anything even partially under the template is hit and suffers a wound on a certain die roll result.

Basic Rule Book, Page 52, Template Weapon wrote:
Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template...Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

Regardless of whether or not the models under a Breath of Chaos template are 'hit' by it or not is irrelevant, because Breath of Chaos does not do anything with hits.

If it had said something like: 'every model hit by Breath of Chaos takes a wound on a 4+' then you would be correct. But it doesn't say that. Breath of Chaos ONLY causes wounds on models that are under the template.

When using Wall of Death, no templates are placed, so no models can suffer wounds from Breath of Chaos. Yes, the attack causes hits on the charging models, but those hits don't actually do anything by how the rules are written.

yakface wrote:[

Basic Rule Book, Page 52, Template Weapon wrote:
Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template...Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

Regardless of whether or not the models under a Breath of Chaos template are 'hit' by it or not is irrelevant, because Breath of Chaos does not do anything with hits.

If it had said something like: 'every model hit by Breath of Chaos takes a wound on a 4+' then you would be correct. But it doesn't say that. Breath of Chaos ONLY causes wounds on models that are under the template.

When using Wall of Death, no templates are placed, so no models can suffer wounds from Breath of Chaos. Yes, the attack causes hits on the charging models, but those hits don't actually do anything by how the rules are written.

This is simply not supported by the rules. In fact, it isn't even supported by YOUR previous post.

yakface wrote:Once you crack open a rulebook you find that the game will give you rules of what you are allowed to do within the game to play it...these are all the things you're given permission to do in order to play the game.

Then once they've laid out these permissions, they'll then lay out some restrictions as well, within those general permissions, which then restricts some of the permissions they previously granted to you.

It doesn't have to say "every model hit" because the rules for templates tell me how to handle the situation. The Breath of Chaos rule tells you anything under the template takes a wound on a 4+, the rule for templates tells us that anything under the template takes a hit, so when you put the two together you have the complete picture. When a template weapon fires in Overwatch it automatically inflicts d3 hits, which are resolved as normal. It is a template weapon, when fired normally it hits everything under the template, and wounds on a 4+. When fired during Overwatch it automatically scores d3 hits that wound on a 4+. How is this so difficult?

The rules give me permission to fire my template weapons in Overwatch. Breath of Chaos is a template weapon. There is no restriction given by the entry, so we know that by the permissive ruleset as you yourself describe it I can do it. Bottom line, unless you can show me where it says that if a codex entry doesn't say "hits" it cannot be fired in Overwatch I can. Show me one sentence in the rulebook that says that Breath of Chaos cannot be fired as Overwatch. I have shown you where the rules give me permission to fire it, you have not shown me anything other than your opinion that is completely void of any rules reference or support. You cannot just create a restriction out of nowhere.