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DeathReaper wrote:

L0rdF1end wrote:The problem being Grounded does not specify clearly enough that Swooping is lost when Grounded.

That is because Grounded tells you exactly what you lose.

Swooping is not amongst the things lost.

+1 Internets for you sir.

DR has got it right. All Grounded does is modify the properties of Swooping. RAW it's a bit silly. RAI, probably should lose Swooping (and it's associated benefits).

Couple of rhetorical questions:

1.) Are there only two flight modes for an FMC to choose from at the start of its Movement?
2.) Is Grounded one of the flight modes that can be chosen?
3.) When a FMC is Grounded, does the Grounded rule explicitly state (permissive rule set) that the FMC loses the Swooping rule?
4.) If you think that Grounded does indeed remove the Swooping flight mode, then what flight mode does the FMC have? (see questions 1 & 2)
5.) Does the Grounded rule mechanic explicitly state (permissive rule set) that the FMC no longer has the HtH property?

-Yad

Captain Antivas wrote:I got to page three and wanted to pull my hair out. Really you guys? This is beyond ridiculous that you cannot see the RAW and insist on arguing nonsense.

1. A FMC that fails its grounding test "comes crashing down to the ground..." If you are actually claiming that a FMC can be Swooping after it crashes to the ground...do you understand what crashes means? This is further supported by the rules when it says "...and becomes Grounded." It is no longer Swooping because it becomes Grounded.

Fluff argument is fluff. "comes crashing down to the ground" is descriptive language and not an actual rule. If so, do you mean for the player to hold up their FMC and drop it on the table? 'Becomes Grounded' is not a flight mode that the player can choose from, nor does the Grounded rule explicitly say that the Swooping mode is lost. It also doesn't say that Grounded is another flight mode.

Captain Antivas wrote:2. In the permissive ruleset you have permission to benefit from the Hard to Hit rule when, and only when, you are a Swooping FMC. "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target..." You lose the ability to benefit from Hard to Hit when you are no longer classified as a Swooping FMC. This happens when you "become Grounded."

Nope. The FMC loses the property of HtH because it has gained the property of Grounded, not because they lose Swooping. You're right that it's a permissive rule set, you just need to practice what you preach

Captain Antivas wrote:3. It specifies you lose Jink because Jink covers you until the start of your next movement phase. But, since you lost the ability to Dive, by crashing, you lose Jink immediately.

Same answer as before. You lose Jink because Grounded says you lost jink (permissive rule set )

Captain Antivas wrote:4. A FMC that is Grounded can Swoop again, as evidenced by the fact that it says you can get Jink back by Diving later in the game. If you cannot Swoop anymore after becoming Grounded then you could not possibly Dive again, and that would be breaking a rule.

You have yet to point to anywhere in the Grounded rule where it says that you actually lose the Swooping flight mode. Grounded is simply a property that is applied to a Swooping FMC. It's definitely a gap in the way the RAW is written and I don't think it ought to play that way. I imagine in friendly games you shouldn't have too much difficulty in convincing your friends, but this is RAW.

-Yad

Captain Antivas wrote:It is called a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is the same format as a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. But no let's go ahead and read it like something completely different.

And yet it's not a formally defined Flight Mode that can be chosen during the controlling player's Movement phase. Nor is it ever described as a 'flight mode' in the text of the rules.

Captain Antivas wrote:Who died and made you the fluff police? Now something is fluff simply because you decide it is? It is part of the description, it is a rule. It sure takes a brilliant mind to discard every argument that disagrees with you and label it "fluff" and declare victory. Nice work.

uh oh. It's fluff cause I'd rather not drop my FMC onto the table thank you very much

Captain Antivas wrote:It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Why not? Seems to me that you're missing the forest for the trees. The RAW describes two flight modes, Swooping and Gliding. Grounded is a property that can be applied to Swooping FMC. It's not a matter of me showing you the appropriate rules, it's a matter of you understanding the rules as written.

Captain Antivas wrote:Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Of course, I'm not, and never have, stating that a FMC still has HtH when affected by the Grounded rule. Not sure where you're getting that from...

-Yad

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

"and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature".
This is then defined.

I no more have to justify why a Grounded MC does not have Hard To Hit, than I have to justify why all jump infantry do not have FNP, or why independant Charectors are not all WS10.

This is flat out wrong. Start first with the understanding that this is a permissive rule set. Keep that in mind as you iterate through the relevant rules.

As DR pointed out, Swooping is chosen at the start of the [model's] movement phase. It explicitly (permissive rule set) sets the duration of Swooping to last until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase. Next, assume the unit was shot and failed the grounding test.

1.) Where in the Grounded rule does it say that the unit no longer has the flight mode of 'Swooping'. Remember that this is a permissive rule set. Answer: It doesn't specifically say that the Swooping flight mode no longer applies. My opinion is that this is an oversight.

2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set. Answer: It removes the Swooping property of 'Hard to Hit' and it removes the property of 'Jink'. That's it.

Rule guys seem to be confusing what you think the rule should do with what it actually does do.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

In this game, governed by a permissive rule set, it's absolutely possible to have a FMC have a flight mode of 'Swooping' and be affected by Grounded. 'Swooping' is not 'flying really fast', that's fluff. Swooping is a set of rules that dictate certain actions the controlling player may make with the swooping model. It also affects the choices and subsequent actions the opposing player may take regarding the swooping FMC. Your argument becomes a bit problematic when you admit that you're wrong on the RAW. It seems to me that when you say 'logically' you mean RAI. Moving normally simply means that the Grounded property and its affects no longer apply to the Swooping FMC.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:I posted a quote earlier but you didn't respond to it. Either you missed it or ignored it, I am not sure. Could go either way. So here it is again.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

You asked for rules quotes, I gave them to you. It cannot be flying if it crashed into the ground. And what proof do I have that it hit the ground? Well, it says the beast crashes for one. It also takes a S9 hit. What do you think that hit came from? Wishful thinking?

The model may move normally, which does more than imply but straight says the FMC is no longer moving like he was before. There, further rules quotes that you lose Swooping.

If you claim that Grounded FMC does not mean it is Grounded and not Swooping then Swooping FMC does not mean what you say it means. You do not have permission to be a Swooping Grounded FMC. You have explicit permission to be a Swooping FMC or a Grounded FMC not both. Prove that you can have both. I have proven that you cannot.

'Comes crashing to the ground is not a rule', it's fluff. The part of that quote that is an actual rule is, "If a 1 or 2 is rolled it suffers a single S9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. If you think that phrase is a rule then I would expect you to ask the FMC player to drop his model onto the ground

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

slice'n'dice wrote:1. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a State, otherwise it would not be capitalised ( p49

2. Under the Grounded Test rules, the creature is first referred to as a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, and then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature if it fails a Grounded Test.

3. If it fails a Grounded Test, it becomes Grounded.

4. Definition of "become": to change State, to transform,to grow into something else.

These points together form a pretty strong implicit argument that you cease to be swooping, and become grounded.

couple that with the fact the removal of jink as per the grounded rules has no effect if you are still swooping. (see my post on pg6).

also, following the logic that it never actually states you lose Swooping, it also never states you lose Grounded
_ so once you are grounded in a game I suppose you're grounded for the rest of that game.

All the rules make a lot more sense if you adhere to the strong implicit (I agree, not explicit) interpretation that you do lose Swooping.

As stated before though, as long as you agree with your opponent how you'll play it, I'll personally accept either interpretation

I would suggest that your first premise is flawed. You're argument boils down to, 'because it's capitalized it must be statefull'. I think you need a bit more support to suggest state, not only why that's relevant to the flight modes that can be chosen, but also saying that capitalization denotes state is not, in my opinion, sufficient.

-Yad

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

"and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature".
This is then defined.

I no more have to justify why a Grounded MC does not have Hard To Hit, than I have to justify why all jump infantry do not have FNP, or why independant Charectors are not all WS10.

This is flat out wrong. Start first with the understanding that this is a permissive rule set. Keep that in mind as you iterate through the relevant rules.

As DR pointed out, Swooping is chosen at the start of the [model's] movement phase. It explicitly (permissive rule set) sets the duration of Swooping to last until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase. Next, assume the unit was shot and failed the grounding test.

1.) Where in the Grounded rule does it say that the unit no longer has the flight mode of 'Swooping'. Remember that this is a permissive rule set. Answer: It doesn't specifically say that the Swooping flight mode no longer applies. My opinion is that this is an oversight.

2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set. .

Rule guys seem to be confusing what you think the rule should do with what it actually does do.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

In this game, governed by a permissive rule set, it's absolutely possible to have a FMC have a flight mode of 'Swooping' and be affected by Grounded. 'Swooping' is not 'flying really fast', that's fluff. Swooping is a set of rules that dictate certain actions the controlling player may make with the swooping model. It also affects the choices and subsequent actions the opposing player may take regarding the swooping FMC. Your argument becomes a bit problematic when you admit that you're wrong on the RAW. It seems to me that when you say 'logically' you mean RAI. Moving normally simply means that the Grounded property and its affects no longer apply to the Swooping FMC.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:I posted a quote earlier but you didn't respond to it. Either you missed it or ignored it, I am not sure. Could go either way. So here it is again.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

You asked for rules quotes, I gave them to you. It cannot be flying if it crashed into the ground. And what proof do I have that it hit the ground? Well, it says the beast crashes for one. It also takes a S9 hit. What do you think that hit came from? Wishful thinking?

The model may move normally, which does more than imply but straight says the FMC is no longer moving like he was before. There, further rules quotes that you lose Swooping.

If you claim that Grounded FMC does not mean it is Grounded and not Swooping then Swooping FMC does not mean what you say it means. You do not have permission to be a Swooping Grounded FMC. You have explicit permission to be a Swooping FMC or a Grounded FMC not both. Prove that you can have both. I have proven that you cannot.

'Comes crashing to the ground is not a rule', it's fluff. The part of that quote that is an actual rule is, "If a 1 or 2 is rolled it suffers a single S9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. If you think that phrase is a rule then I would expect you to ask the FMC player to drop his model onto the ground

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

slice'n'dice wrote:1. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a State, otherwise it would not be capitalised ( p49

2. Under the Grounded Test rules, the creature is first referred to as a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, and then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature if it fails a Grounded Test.

3. If it fails a Grounded Test, it becomes Grounded.

4. Definition of "become": to change State, to transform,to grow into something else.

These points together form a pretty strong implicit argument that you cease to be swooping, and become grounded.

couple that with the fact the removal of jink as per the grounded rules has no effect if you are still swooping. (see my post on pg6).

also, following the logic that it never actually states you lose Swooping, it also never states you lose Grounded
_ so once you are grounded in a game I suppose you're grounded for the rest of that game.

All the rules make a lot more sense if you adhere to the strong implicit (I agree, not explicit) interpretation that you do lose Swooping.

As stated before though, as long as you agree with your opponent how you'll play it, I'll personally accept either interpretation

I would suggest that your first premise is flawed. You're argument boils down to, 'because it's capitalized it must be statefull'. I think you need a bit more support to suggest state, not only why that's relevant to the flight modes that can be chosen, but also saying that capitalization denotes state is not, in my opinion, sufficient.

-Yad




Automatically Appended Next Post:
doh! sorry for the double post


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:There is only one correct way to play this. The RAI is quite clear. If you read carefully the RAW is also quite clear.

1. The type of monster is Flying Monsterous Creature. We'll say FMC.

2. In the start of its move it becomes either a "Gliding FMC" or a "Swooping FMC". A Swooping FMC gets Hard to HIt and can Dive to get a Jink save.

3. "A FMC that is swooping" must take a grounded test if hit.

4. Here is the RAW fact BRB p.49: "If a I or 2 is rolled, the beast comes
crashing down to the ground - it
suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no
armor or cover saves allowed, and
become Grounded. A Grounded Flying
Monstrous Creature can be charged
in the following Assault phase..."

You see, it no longer says Swooping FMC.

I'll break down #4 for you slow-mo style:
a. Swooping FMC
b. "crashing to the ground"
c. "suffers a single S9 hit"
d. "become Grounded"
e. Grounded FMC

Did you see that? From (d) to (e) it actually turned from a Swooping FMC to a Grounded FMC. That sound you hear is the sound of it losing Swooping.

Other things that don't make sense any other way:

Why take away Jink if you could just declare your FMC is diving and get it back? That would be pointless.

How is something already on the ground going to dive? That's rediculous.

If your brain hurts imagining a FMC made of rubber bouncing off the ground, taking multiple S9 hits, diving through solid ground, flying so fast you must roll 6's to hit but then you can walk and hit it with your sword...

Your 'b' is fluff. I for one am not dropping my FMC on the ground. It's not a rule. Your 'd' is also flawed. You are assuming that the words 'become Grounded' must somehow supplant the chosen flight mode of Swooping, when the Grounded rule gives you no such direction. Furthermore you are attempting to equate how these rules would work 'in real life'. Hence you consternation about them not making sense. As soon as you do this though you are no longer treating them as rules in a game.

-Yad

paidinfull wrote:


A Flying Monstrous Creature (FMC) is mistakenly thought to only be permitted in one of two modes:

p49
Flight Modes
FMC can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding

What folks fail to see is that a FMC can be in a mode that is neither Swooping nor Gliding.

"At the start of its move, a FMC must declare which mode..."

So if I choose not to move I can choose not to declare either mode. Thus proving that it is possible for a FMC to be neither Swooping nor Gliding.

I'm a bit confused by what you're asserting here. With regards to the rules you've partially quoted, at the start of its [the FMC] move, a FMC must declare which mode... I presume this is that part about which flight mode is chosen (I don't have my book with me right now). You then say that if you choose to not move the FMC you can avoid declaring for either mode. Is that really possible given the partial quote you've provided? If you absolutely must declare which flight mode the FMC has at the start of it's move then you have to do so regardless if you actually move the model.

Is there an exception to the flight mode declaration if you choose not to move the FMC?

-Yad

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Except you still have to declare a movement mode even if you remain stationary.

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

You must declare a flight mode.

"At the start of its move". If you don't move, you don't declare.

That's an incredibly literal interpretation of the rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're equating "At the start of its move" to "as you start to physically move the model". I don't think you're correct. During the movement phase you iterate through all the units/models you control and decide how you will or will not move them. The start of its move is when you make a movement decision for that model. The actual results of your decision are irrelevant. The FMC rule forces you to choose the flight mode.

-Yad

Testify wrote:

Yad wrote:
That's an incredibly literal interpretation of the rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're equating "At the start of its move" to "as you start to physically move the model". I don't think you're correct. During the movement phase you iterate through all the units/models you control and decide how you will or will not move them. The start of its move is when you make a movement decision for that model. The FMC rule forces you to choose the flight mode.
-Yad

You've made all of that up. Nothing in the rules makes you go through all your units and do that. There are plenty of things that you do at the start of a model's move - certain spells and abilities, for example.

So during the Movement phase you don't decide how to move your models/units?

-Yad

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

I do not know where to begin to tell you that this is 100% incorrect.

FMC's can start on the table.

If they do they are in Glide mode.

Perhaps have a read of P.49

"Ridiculous" indeed.

A FMC coming in from reserves cannot do so without moving - hence why it needs to choose glide or swoop.

A FMC already on the board is perfectly capable of standing still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:

So during the Movement phase you don't decide how to move your models/units?

-Yad

Not if it isn't moving, no.

oh my

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not moving a model IS deciding how to move your models/units.

You made a choice to keep the model stationary at the start of its move.

Ding, ding, ding. This While you may not formally announce to your opponent that you aren't moving a model/unit (which I do, not only for my benefit, but also so that my opponent is aware of what I'm dong), you are making a movement decision at the start of that model/unit's move.

-Yad

 DeathReaper wrote:
And not moving models is a choice you have made for that units movement.

Otherwise, how would you know when you were or were not required to snapfire heavy weapons in an infantry squad? Because you decided to move or not move them at the start of that unit's move.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This tells us we have a choice to either move our units or to keep the model stationary.

Uhm no. You can refrain from moving units.

Umm that is what I said...