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had this question in our local group of 40k players. Debate please.
"Hey fellas, I'm going through the Rulebook to make sure I have a solid understanding and I came across this question:
Swooping flying MCs that fail a grounded test don't lose the hard to hit rule. Agree or disagree and reasons why?
Thanks."

I asked the question. I say they still have it. OP, how about a poll on this one?

Been there done that.

ty sir

To clarify my stance - RAW fmc's keep hard to hit even after failing a ground test if they're in swoop mods. However to avoid arguments (and because it makes sense) I'll treat grounded MC's as gliding until FAQ'ed one way or another.

If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Yeah it's a double edged sword but the idea is met with opposition here locally.

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

While i agree with your view from a common sense outlook (It's how i've played my tyrants and will continue to play them) the hard to hit rule is conferred when a FMC chooses to swoop. The rulebook needs to have a line of text that says grounded MC's lose the hard to hit rule, as well as jink.

So to reiterate - I play it grounded as common sense, but RAW they are still hit on 6's and take grounded tests. It's a dumb argument but nonetheless i just had to bring it up because i'm too obsessive over minutiae.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

While i agree with your view from a common sense outlook (It's how i've played my tyrants and will continue to play them) the hard to hit rule is conferred when a FMC chooses to swoop. The rulebook needs to have a line of text that says grounded MC's lose the hard to hit rule, as well as jink.

So to reiterate - I play it grounded as common sense, but RAW they are still hit on 6's and take grounded tests. It's a dumb argument but nonetheless i just had to bring it up because i'm too obsessive over minutiae.

No because, as i've said a thousand times, if you follow that logic then at no point does the MC ever lose the hard to hit rule. If it only loses it by explicitly stating that it no long has the hard to hit rule, then it would carry on to the next turn - even if the MC was gliding.

A MC can be gliding, swooping or grounded. If it is one, then it cannot be the other.

Testify wrote:
No because, as i've said a thousand times, if you follow that logic then at no point does the MC ever lose the hard to hit rule. If it only loses it by explicitly stating that it no long has the hard to hit rule, then it would carry on to the next turn - even if the MC was gliding.

A MC can be gliding, swooping or grounded. If it is one, then it cannot be the other.

I'm with you on this mostly. Why does the grounded status specifically mention the FMC loses the 'jink' rule? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying the book needs 1 MORE line of text to make RAI=RAW.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

And you have some actual printed rules that says a grounded MC is no longer swooping?

Please point me to that page.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

And you have some actual printed rules that says a grounded MC is no longer swooping?

Please point me to that page.

exactly. the raw gives a list of what happens once 'grounded', no longer being 'hard to hit' is not in that list iirc

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

And you have some actual printed rules that says a grounded MC is no longer swooping?

Please point me to that page.

Please point me to the page where it says that hard to hit EVER leaves the MC.
Either grounding overrules swooping, or swooping is always in place - note that nowhere in the description for gliding does it state that the MC is no longer swooping.

So either each state over-rides the other, or they all stack up indefinitely. You can't have it both ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:
I'm with you on this mostly. Why does the grounded status specifically mention the FMC loses the 'jink' rule? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying the book needs 1 MORE line of text to make RAI=RAW.

That's true. I assume they thought that it would be obvious that a grounded monstrous creature was no longer hard to hit.

Testify wrote:Please point me to the page where it says that hard to hit EVER leaves the MC.
Either grounding overrules swooping, or swooping is always in place - note that nowhere in the description for gliding does it state that the MC is no longer swooping.
So either each state over-rides the other, or they all stack up indefinitely. You can't have it both ways.

You loose Hard to Hit when you change from Swooping to Gliding. The rules state that you must choose one state or the other at the begining of the movement phase. You use the rules for the state that you choose at the start of the movement phase until your next movement phase.

The problem is they poorly defined the "Grounded" state. Some people around here try to argue that as you are neither Swooping or Gliding at the start of your movement phase that you can never get back off the ground and the unit is permenently grounded for the rest of the game. (Generaly its TFG and we ignore him).

I personaly use that he is no longer Hard to Hit once grounded.

Gloomfang wrote:

Testify wrote:Please point me to the page where it says that hard to hit EVER leaves the MC.
Either grounding overrules swooping, or swooping is always in place - note that nowhere in the description for gliding does it state that the MC is no longer swooping.
So either each state over-rides the other, or they all stack up indefinitely. You can't have it both ways.

You loose Hard to Hit when you change from Swooping to Gliding. The rules state that you must choose one state or the other at the begining of the movement phase. You use the rules for the state that you choose at the start of the movement phase until your next movement phase.

Source?
I'm playing devil's advocate here - my point is that the rulebook does not state exactly that the effects end. We therefore infer that the states override. Grounded is a state, therefore the Swooping rules no longer apply.

Gloomfang wrote:
The problem is they poorly defined the "Grounded" state. Some people around here try to argue that as you are neither Swooping or Gliding at the start of your movement phase that you can never get back off the ground and the unit is permenently grounded for the rest of the game. (Generaly its TFG and we ignore him).

I personaly use that he is no longer Hard to Hit once grounded.

Right. Saying that one thing is not clearly defined does not automatically mean the the opposite is true. The rulebook does not state that the FMC retains Hard To Hit, people are assuming that it does.
edit - It specifies that Jink has ended because Jink specifically says that it lasts until the start of the next turn. Without the rulebook stating that it loses jink, it would retain even after swooping was lost.
So if the rulebook simply said that the FMC was Grounded, it would retain jink but lose Hard To Hit.

The Hard to hit rules state that only when it is swooping does it gain the benefit of the hard to Hit rule.

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target..." P.49

They start by indication that a MC that is Swooping is the subject of this rule.

Then Shots resolved at such a target (One that is Swooping) .

and of course you must choose Swooping or Gliding at the start of the movement phase.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

I would have thought it was similar to hitting an immobilized vehicle in melee.

Before receiving an immobilized result you compare WS. Any attacks at lower initiative that occur after the immobilized result automatically hit.

Why wouldn't a swooping monstrous creature work along the same lines?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:I would have thought it was similar to hitting an immobilized vehicle in melee.

Before receiving an immobilized result you compare WS. Any attacks at lower initiative that occur after the immobilized result automatically hit.

Why wouldn't a swooping monstrous creature work along the same lines?

DoW

It probably should, but the rules are not written to allow that to happen.

This is because the MC has been declared as Swooping in the movement phase, and will not change until the MC's next movement phase as Grounded does not specifically take away the Swooping status.

DeathReaper wrote:
This is because the MC has been declared as Swooping in the movement phase, and will not change until the MC's next movement phase as Grounded does not specifically take away the Swooping status.

Neither does gliding.
Find me the page that says that a FMC that's gliding is no longer Hard To Hit.

The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

And the fact that it states that the MC is now a Grounded MC would suggest the same...

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

And the fact that it states that the MC is now a Grounded MC would suggest the same...

Except thats not what Grounded says.


Grounded says you lose your Jink save and can be assaulted. I doesn't say you cease to Swoop.

Unlike the part where you choose to either Swoop or Glide. The language there is that one is exclusive of the other.

Grounded is not exclusive of Swooping. Its mearly a substate of Swooping.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

And the fact that it states that the MC is now a Grounded MC would suggest the same...

That may be RAI.

But the RAW says you choose Swoop or glide at the start of the movement phase. so unless something states that they loose Swooping, or they change to gliding, then they are still Swooping as that is the movement mode they chose at the start of the movement phase.

Hmm, okay perhaps it's more like shooting a flatout skimmer from 5th.

If —and this is a hypothetical— the rule that stated 'immobilized' results became 'wrecked' results didn't exist, there would be nothing to stop you from still getting your flatout cover save from subsequent shooting in the same phase.

Grounding really doesn't specify that you completely lose all benefits of swooping, just those stated. Would it not have made sense for them to say something like "The MC no longer counts as swooping"?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:Hmm, okay perhaps it's more like shooting a flatout skimmer from 5th.

If —and this is a hypothetical— the rule that stated 'immobilized' results became 'wrecked' results didn't exist, there would be nothing to stop you from still getting your flatout cover save from subsequent shooting in the same phase.

That is correct if that part did not exist.

DogOfWar wrote:Grounding really doesn't specify that you completely lose all benefits of swooping, just those stated. Would it not have made sense for them to say something like "The MC no longer counts as swooping"?

Yes It would have made sense for them to state that.

It would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

DeathReaper wrote:
Yes It would have made sense for them to state that.

I know GW people read this forum. At one point, somewhere in history, at least..

I'm starting to think that GW runs like the military, or failing that.. Has military mindset as far as "sense"

Cheers

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
This is because the MC has been declared as Swooping in the movement phase, and will not change until the MC's next movement phase as Grounded does not specifically take away the Swooping status.

Neither does gliding.
Find me the page that says that a FMC that's gliding is no longer Hard To Hit.

Page 49, Testify. First paragraph.

Not sure if this debate needs to rear its head again; but the end analysis is that it is a horribly written rule and will be FAQed soon. I've stopped keeping a horse in the race on this one since even in my "first glance" pass through the rulebook I did a double take and went... wtf.

Think of it this way; the problem is that Glide and Swoop are... radio buttons, while Grounded is an on / off button. No where in the rules are these two "buttons" related to the other (other than the obvious fact that you can't be grounded while gliding). 100% RAW you would literally be the bouncing ball FMC since the radio button was never switched from Swoop to Glide, you just now have the Grounded button set to on. In other words, you're still swooping and can be forced to take additional grounding tests. Clearly that is not what GW intended... or maybe it is... oh save us all... but for now that is as RAW as it gets. The FMC rules clearly state you are either Gliding or Swooping, it does not say Grounded has any affect on which of those two states we are in, or that it is some 3rd state in the "radio button".

In our group we've been playing it that when you are Grounded you are now Gliding. Yes that flies in the face of RAW but we felt it was the most common sense, balanced approach until it's FAQed. I'd kill for the "wishful" thinking version of it maintains Hard to Hit and yet I can't be Grounded any further (ie like Testify's interpretation); but I'll opt to be very pleasantly surprised if that is indeed the ruling when the FAQ lands.

You really have to be joking right?

I really had no plans to get into this debate until I actually read the rules in question and then began to question the sportsmanship of everyone in this thread trying to maintain that a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is still either Swooping or Gliding.

Hard to Hit:

"A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without.....'

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature =/= A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. This isn't rocket science nor is it a question if a GFMC is still Swooping. The conditions for Hard to Hit are set in stone; a SFMC. Nothing more and nothing less.

Even if you were to say that after being Grounded, the FMC is still Swooping, you are still not fulfilling the condition set by Hard to hit as you are now a SGFMC, not a SFMC.

Grounded Tests:

Besides the blatantly obvious use of wording that a SFMC that fails its Grounded test BECOMES Grounded, ie, no Longer Swooping or Gliding, we have an explicit and specific title given, GFMC.

In addition, the GFMC can now be charged in the following assault phase, specifically prohibited when a SFMC, and zero permission for the mythical SGFMC.

It also loses the Jink special rule, however note what is in the parentheses, (if it had it). This is only to note that if Grounded after having Dived, the GFMC loses its cover save granted by the Jink USR.

Lastly, it tells you that the GFMC can then move normally in its next turn. If something is allowed to move normally next turn, it must be moving abnormally this turn. As the normal movement for a FMC is either Swooping or Gliding, a GFMC would be considered moving abnormally. Thus the permission to move normally the next turn.

This isn't some huge RAW versus RAI debate or a case of crappy rules writing by GW. You cannot argue the set in stone condition for Hard to Hit, SFMC. Not a GFMC or the mythical SGFMC, just a SFMC.