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Breng77 wrote:The issue with that argument is how the english language works.

You don't need a definition of either Swooping MC or Grounded MC.

Look at this way

I see a man that is running = I see a running man.

Therefore a MC that is Swooping = a swooping MC.

The rulebook defines what is required for a MC to be swooping.

A grounded MC = a MC that has been grounded

the rulebook defines what it means to be grounded (can be assaulted loses Jink.

There are only 2 modes for a FMC that are given Swoop mode and Glide mode, there is no grounded mode. You can only choose between these 2 things.

That said I generally play Grounded = no longer swooping as it is less advantageuos to me. (which is always how I play unless there is a ruling otherwise.)

However, the only reason I think that a Grounded MC might still get hard to hit is because it would have been far easier for GW to write the rule as "takes a s9 AP1 hit and counts as gliding for the remainder of the turn."

And yet I think you might be missing the most basic principle here because GW didn't need to write that...
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature != A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature

It really is that simple (I say that lightly because I understand there is some confusion) and I think we might be over complicating this in our heads.

Only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.
If I am not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature then I do not have Hard to Hit. (Per the rules I quoted)

An even simpler way to break it down using some easier, no game related terms:
Posting Modes
A Poster has two posting modes: Happy and Sad

"Sad"
If a Poster is Sad, it posts just like a Panda

"Happy"
If a Poster is Happy, it posts just like a Panda with the following exceptions and clarifications:

Gain More Exalted
Witty Banter a plenty
Excellent dance moves

Hard to "Sway"
A Happy Poster is a very difficult target for people to deter without specialized comments. Comments resolved at such a target can only use Sarcasm, unless the person has the Convincing USR.

"Upset" Tests
If a Poster that is Happy suffers one or more insults from a person's comment, it must take an Upset Test immediately after that comment has been read.

To take an Upset Test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Poster maintains control and suffers no additional effect.

If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the freak comes out at night! - it suffers a single attack to its ego with no save or cover allowed, and become Angry. An Angry Poster can be insulted in the following comment phase and automatically l loses the Swagger USR (if it had it), but can post normally in the following thread.

At the end of all of this, all the silly japes and things I wrote are in consequential because Happy Poster != Angry Poster. If I become an Angry Poster I am no longer a Happy Poster and rules that I gain because I am a Happy Poster no longer apply.

So when the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature becomes a Ground Flying Monstrous Creature the Hard to Hit rule no longer applies.
It's not about intent, it's RAW.

Or to use your example
I see a man that is running = I see a running man.
If a running man becomes Tripped and is a Tripped Man, he is no longer a "running man"... do you see what I was trying to convey?

Works for me as I said unless I see it ruled otherwise I already play it as losing hard to hit (because it makes more sense to me that way), I can understand both sides. Essentially as I said, why write the rule the way they wrote it when a FMC that fails a grounded test counts as swooping for the duration of the turn is far easier? Now this could be answered by, It's GW and they suck at writing rules, but all I'm saying is that I would not be shocked if they FAQ'd it either way.

Also by your argument there was no need for them to spell out that the MC lost jink and could be assaulted, as both of those are things only a Swooping FMC can have. IF Grounded =/= Swooping, then losing those happens automatically and there was no need to state the loss.

paidinfull wrote:
And yet I think you might be missing the most basic principle here because GW didn't need to write that...

So when the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature becomes a Ground Flying Monstrous Creature the Hard to Hit rule no longer applies.
It's not about intent, it's RAW.

I disagree. GW clearly needed to include more detail because we're sitting on page 11 of a contentious thread with no real sign of consensus. And you can't say "it's not about intent, it's RAW" when RAW only state that you lose jink and can be assaulted. The entire argument of the "loses hard to hit" crowd seems to based entirely on inference.

paidinfull wrote:Or to use your example
I see a man that is running = I see a running man.
If a running man becomes Tripped and is a Tripped Man, he is no longer a "running man"... do you see what I was trying to convey?

But that running man could still be in motion during his fall and might roll a bit on the ground. He might still be hard to hit.

I'm one of the group that believes the model retains hard to hit, but as Breng77 said, I have been playing it in the least advantageous way.

Its grounded. means cant jink and can be assaulted. The next turn can return to swooping so its grounded like it crashed into the ground. Guess what it means all other shots at it are going to hit on regular Bs since its no longer hard to hit. But swooping says it cant be assaulted. and you cant jink if your not flying yet you would have us believe its still hard to hit?

When they Faq as is intended your wish's to have a swooping grounded FMC will be sadly over.

Too much time spent trying to break something that is obvious. Grounded is not flying. Grounded is crashed !!!!

I mean like if a 747 has the swooping rule and crashed to the ground and since a rule says that it didnt loose swooping technically the people onboard are allright cuz its still flying?but the ground crew can run in (assault) and fix it while swooping/grounded.

To Crash means not to fly. to resume flying next turn means not flying, no jink is also no flying.

undertow wrote:
I disagree. GW clearly needed to include more detail because we're sitting on page 11 of a contentious thread with no real sign of consensus. And you can't say "it's not about intent, it's RAW" when RAW only state that you lose jink and can be assaulted. The entire argument of the "loses hard to hit" crowd seems to based entirely on inference.

No...we have the naive belief that "comes crashing to the ground and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature" means that it becomes... a Grounded Monstrous Creature

You are inferring that there is such a thing as a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. To me that seems more logically absurd.

Breng77 wrote:Works for me as I said unless I see it ruled otherwise I already play it as losing hard to hit (because it makes more sense to me that way), I can understand both sides. Essentially as I said, why write the rule the way they wrote it when a FMC that fails a grounded test counts as swooping for the duration of the turn is far easier? Now this could be answered by, It's GW and they suck at writing rules, but all I'm saying is that I would not be shocked if they FAQ'd it either way.

Aye, you did say that. Apologies if I came across poorly, I was simply trying to elaborate a little more on my logic.

Breng77 wrote:
Also by your argument there was no need for them to spell out that the MC lost jink and could be assaulted, as both of those are things only a Swooping FMC can have. IF Grounded =/= Swooping, then losing those happens automatically and there was no need to state the loss.

This was what I'd hoped to elaborate a little more on and clarify a bit. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and you're writing "Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" and "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature" short hand, there still might be a disconnect (albeit small). I was saying that a "Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" =/= a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature" explicitly, not really that Ground =/= Swooping. See a FMC doesn't have Jink. It has Dive, which grants it Jink until end of its next turn. The Grounded Test does need to say that after the test is failed that this Jink save is lost because the Jink and Dive are not conferred by the FMC being a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. It's conferred by being a "FMC that is Swooping". When I wrote all of that out initially what I was trying to convey was based on the rules from the BRB a "Running Man" does not equal a "Man that is Running".

In the Hard to Hit rule, it specifies that Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature have this rule. As readers we make the logical assumption that a "Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping" IS a "Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature". Were this code in an application Hard To Hit would not apply to a Flying Monstrous Creatures that is Swooping. Sounds silly right? That's because it is a Flying Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. They would be different in a sense identical to Jump Infantry != Infantry.

By using Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature as a name (or variable if you're thinking about it programmatically) it means that only units of that explicit type gain the rule.
If we wanted to play it by hardcore, 100% RAW...
A Flying Monstrous Creatures that is Swooping does not have Hard to Hit

That would be because we are in the Flying Monstrous Creature section, have rules for that, but no rules for a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. All I was illustrating was that if we make an assumption for one based one logic set, then the exact same assumption applies later under identical circumstances.


Ha... and I said this was "simple". Pfft!
I'm glad you've been playing it correctly though! (I've not FWIW)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

undertow wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
And yet I think you might be missing the most basic principle here because GW didn't need to write that...

So when the Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature becomes a Ground Flying Monstrous Creature the Hard to Hit rule no longer applies.
It's not about intent, it's RAW.

I disagree. GW clearly needed to include more detail because we're sitting on page 11 of a contentious thread with no real sign of consensus. And you can't say "it's not about intent, it's RAW" when RAW only state that you lose jink and can be assaulted. The entire argument of the "loses hard to hit" crowd seems to based entirely on inference.

See here's the thing though. It doesn't need to be say that they "lose it".
By becoming a Ground Flying Monstrous Creature, it is no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. Only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.
If I am not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, which is what the Grounded Test is stating (it's now a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature) I do not qualify for the Hard to Hit rule.
(I quoted it if you need a reference)

It's much the basic principle I described above.
If I become Angry, I am no longer Happy. Rules that apply to Happy Posters do not apply to Angry Posters.

paidinfull wrote:Or to use your example
I see a man that is running = I see a running man.
If a running man becomes Tripped and is a Tripped Man, he is no longer a "running man"... do you see what I was trying to convey?

But that running man could still be in motion during his fall and might roll a bit on the ground. He might still be hard to hit.

I'm one of the group that believes the model retains hard to hit, but as Breng77 said, I have been playing it in the least advantageous way.

Testify wrote:

Testify wrote:The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

The rules don't say lots of things

That is akin to saying "The rules don't say I can't!"

This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.


How is that a WAAC move?

you still have to take grounded tests, and if you fail a grounded test you are almost guaranteed to take a wound.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:

Testify wrote:The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

The rules don't say lots of things

That is akin to saying "The rules don't say I can't!"

This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.


How is that a WAAC move?

you still have to take grounded tests, and if you fail a grounded test you are almost guaranteed to take a wound.

That's a great point!
And only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.
If I'm a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature then I am not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and I do not have Hard to Hit.

The assumptions presented here is that a Flying Monstrous Creature can be both a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature AND a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Unfortunately, that's not explicitly stated in the rules and is also contradicted by the use of "becomes". If I was a Cat that became a Dog, I am no longer a Cat am I?

I think we've established the logic pretty concretely. If a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature fails its Grounded Test, it becomes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. As the rules for Hard to Hit only apply to Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, Grounded Flying Monstrous Creatures do not have Hard to Hit.

paidinfull wrote:
That's a great point!
And only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.
If I'm a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature then I am not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and I do not have Hard to Hit.

And the rules quote that says the MC looses Hard to hit is on what page?

Remember Swooping Lasts until the MC's next movement phase. Something needs to say that it loses Swooping movement mode for the creature to lose it.

Becoming grounded only allows the MC to be assaulted, and forces a Str 9 AP 2 hit on the creature, That is all becoming grounded does.

DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
That's a great point!
And only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.
If I'm a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature then I am not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and I do not have Hard to Hit.

And the rules quote that says the MC looses Hard to hit is on what page?

Remember Swooping Lasts until the MC's next movement phase. Something needs to say that it loses Swooping movement mode for the creature to lose it.

Becoming grounded only allows the MC to be assaulted, and forces a Str 9 AP 2 hit on the creature, That is all becoming grounded does.

You're back tracking on what you said.

You said,
"The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. "
Only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.

p49
Hard To Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire USR.

So if I'm a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature I'm not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature am I?
The rule set is permissive. Grounded Flying Monstrous Creatures do not have Hard to Hit.

I'm afraid you've been playing it wrong. If I don't have something to begin with, I can't "lose it".

DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
That's a great point!
And only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.
If I'm a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature then I am not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and I do not have Hard to Hit.

And the rules quote that says the MC looses Hard to hit is on what page?

Remember Swooping Lasts until the MC's next movement phase. Something needs to say that it loses Swooping movement mode for the creature to lose it.

Becoming grounded only allows the MC to be assaulted, and forces a Str 9 AP 2 hit on the creature, That is all becoming grounded does.

And by your logic the FMC is assaultable the rest of the game.

paidinfull wrote:So if I'm a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature I'm not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature am I?
The rule set is permissive. Grounded Flying Monstrous Creatures do not have Hard to Hit.

I'm afraid you've been playing it wrong.

You are a grounded MC that moved using Swooping Flight mode, which lasts til the next movement phase.

Nothing says you lose hard to hit.

Nothing says you are no longer Swooping.

Becoming Grounded ONLY lets your MC be assaulted, and makes it take a Str 9 AP2 hit. That is all becoming grounded does. this is true since The rule set is permissive.

It has to say that hard to hit goes away, for hard to hit to go away, or it does not.

Captain Antivas wrote:And by your logic the FMC is assaultable the rest of the game.

This is not true. Read Page 49 again please.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase..."

Q: When can a grounded FMC be assaulted?

A: in the following Assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:
You are a grounded MC that moved using Swooping Flight mode, which lasts til the next movement phase.

Lulz
You are really reaching for it now.

Please reread the rules that have been quoted and you'll see exactly what I'm saying
All of the following is within the Swooping rules and are each separate rules.

p49
Hard To Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire USR.

So what has the Hard To Hit rule? A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Swooping is not what confers Hard to Hit, being a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is.
If it was a line of code it would be:

IF Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = True THEN
Hard to Hit
END IF

P49
Grounded Tests
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the best comes crashing to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armor or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally next turn

DeathReaper wrote:
Nothing says you lose hard to hit.

Nothing says you are no longer Swooping.

Becoming Grounded ONLY lets your MC be assaulted, and makes it take a Str 9 AP2 hit. That is all becoming grounded does. this is true since The rule set is permissive.

It has to say that hard to hit goes away, for hard to hit to go away, or it does not.

Captain Antivas wrote:And by your logic the FMC is assaultable the rest of the game.

This is not true. Read Page 49 again please.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase..."

Q: When can a grounded FMC be assaulted?

A: in the following Assault phase.

What you seem to be missing is the clear line I've quoted.

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire USR.

Now you quite clearly a following the other rule:

A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule

If the FMC is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature then it is quite obviously NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. You are attempting to say that it is both (though you don't seem to be aware of it).

The Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature never "loses Hard to Hit". It never had Hard to Hit to begin with. As explained above, it's a permissive rule set. If you are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, you don't have Hard to Hit.

Seems a bit obvious, no?

DeathReaper wrote:
That is akin to saying "The rules don't say I can't!"

This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.


How is that a WAAC move?

you still have to take grounded tests, and if you fail a grounded test you are almost guaranteed to take a wound.

I was merely pointing out that "the rules system is permissive" tends to be the last resort of absurd and (can be used as) abusive rules interpretations.

All opinions are subjective, I interpret "comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a grounded monstrous creature" to mean that it is no longer swooping or hard to hit. Evidently, others don't. Ultimately it's up to your conscious - and your gaming group.

My Deamonic Monstrous Creatures [note that being deamonic, that means they are not tyranid monstrous creatures. I understand this may give some posters difficulty ] disagree that a failed grounded test means taking a wound. Re-rollable 3++ need more than a single hit.

paidinfull wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
You are a grounded MC that moved using Swooping Flight mode, which lasts til the next movement phase.

Lulz
You are really reaching for it now.

Actually if the rules do not say you lose something then you do not lose it, Not sure how that is tough to understand.

paidinfull wrote:Please reread the rules that have been quoted and you'll see exactly what I'm saying
All of the following is within the Swooping rules and are each separate rules.

Each are separate rules, however nothing in grounded says that you did not use Swooping Flight mode. Nothing in the Grounded rules state you lose Hard to hit.

paidinfull wrote:So what has the Hard To Hit rule? A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Swooping is not what confers Hard to Hit, being a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is.

Being a SFMC is the same as moving in Swooping mode, the Text equates the terms.

It says a FMC can move using one of two modes. Then it gives the rules for a FMC that moved in Swooping mode, but calls it a Swooping FMC.

paidinfull wrote:If the FMC is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature then it is quite obviously NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. You are attempting to say that it is both (though you don't seem to be aware of it).

Nothing in the Grounded rules says that it takes Hard to hit away.

Nothing in the Grounded rules says that the Swooping Flight mode ends before the MC's next movement phase.(though you don't seem to be aware of it)

Seems a bit obvious, no?

Once again you ignore the point I am making. Is it because it makes your argument look ridiculous?

DeathReaper wrote:
You are a grounded MC that moved using Swooping Flight mode, which lasts til the next movement phase.

Nothing says you lose hard to hit.

Nothing says you are no longer Swooping.

I disagree that it lasts till the next movement phase. The entry under Grounding Test says "...and automatically loses the Jink special rule(if it had it), but can move normally in it's next turn. If it fails the grounding test, it is no longer moving normally, otherwise the underlined part wouldn't be necessary. Since Swooping is a normal movement type, and it is no longer moving normally(to the point that they felt it necessary to grant permission to move normally in the next turn), it is no longer Swooping for the duration of the turn which it failed the grounding test.

No, it doesn't say "no longer swooping" word for word. Denial of normal movement and permission to resume normal movement is all in there. This is much more simple that everyone is making it out to be.

beigeknight wrote:I disagree that it lasts till the next movement phase.

Re-read Swooping. you are incorrect if you disagree that it lasts till the next movement phase.

It is explicit on when it ends.

Only one thing says when swooping stops, and that is in the Changing flight mode section:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

It lasts until the start of the MC's next turn. Nothing else says that Swooping is lost.

your argument is incorrect.

Captain Antivas wrote:Once again you ignore the point I am making. Is it because it makes your argument look ridiculous?

What point, the one I addressed a few posts ago?
The point you are making that I have proven wrong?

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:And by your logic the FMC is assaultable the rest of the game.

This is not true. Read Page 49 again please.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase..."

Q: When can a grounded FMC be assaulted?

A: in the following Assault phase.

the MC is not assaultable the rest of the game, just in the following Assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

beigeknight wrote:I disagree that it lasts till the next movement phase.

Re-read Swooping. you are incorrect if you disagree that it lasts till the next movement phase.

It is explicit on when it ends.

Only one thing says when swooping stops, and that is in the Changing flight mode section:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

It lasts until the start of the MC's next turn. Nothing else says that Swooping is lost.

your argument is incorrect.

Then why would permission need to be granted to move normally in the next turn upon failing a grounded test? Because upon failing a grounded test a FMC is no longer moving normally. You're reading one section of the rules and saying "that's it". And because it says "must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding" doesn't mean nothing can stop it from Swooping or Gliding. You can declare an assault, but if you roll bad you can fail to assault. You can declare that you are Swooping; if you fail a grounded test you cease to move normally(swooping) but can move normally in the next turn. You gotta look at all the rules here, not just one part of them.

beigeknight wrote: if you fail a grounded test you cease to move normally(swooping)

Nowhere on P. 49 does it say that.

You choose how to move at the start of your movement phase anyway so it wouldn't matter.

DeathReaper wrote:

beigeknight wrote: if you fail a grounded test you cease to move normally(swooping)

Nowhere on P. 49 does it say that.

Does it say those exact words in that order? No. But if you read the rest of the rules on page 49, you'll see that when a FMC fail a grounded test you are given permission to move normally in the next turn which infers that once you fail a grounded test you are no longer moving as normal. Please try to see the forest through the trees here. The rules are all there, you just have to put them all together from different sections.

ROFL
Deathreaper

I know it can be difficult to admit you are wrong. It's okay.

If the "text equates" a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping to a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature ( it doesn't but we *assume* it to) then the same logic applies later.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Grounded is equated to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

Right?

You keep clinging to this "it doesn't say it loses it" logic, but it does and I've already pointed it out.

When a SFMC fails its Grounded Test it "becomes Grounded". I don't understand how else you can read this, but whatever the SFMC was before... it's not that any more. It is no longer Swooping. Why? Because it "became Grounded". Much like if you were skinny and became fat, or were hot and became cold.

Nothing in the rules states that when it becomes "something else" that it is also the thing it was before. That's contrary to the definition of the word "become" or "to turn into"

Do you see now?
If the logic that the criteria isn't met for HtH isn't enough, and it should be because by RAW your "the rule equates" claim is an assumption, surely the fact that the FMC has become something else should be sufficient.

So where does it say it loses HtH? When it states it "becomes Grounded". We don't even need a definition. Whatever it was before it's not that now.

I think you mean A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature that is Grounded is equated to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

The Becomes Grounded has its own rules that apply. Can be assaulted and loses Jink, but does not lose Hard to hit.

Grounded specifies what additional rules apply. so they remove the 'can not be assaulted' restriction, and they over ride the 'Jink' rule, but no overturning of the Hard to hit...

I am going to say this again, I said it a few pages ago, but here it is:

losing swooping was probably how the rules were intended.

They are just not written to lose Swooping currently.

I would be fine with the FAQ ruling it either way, as both ways have their benefits and drawbacks.

Since no one has replied to my earlier post, I'm going to re-iterate the crux:

All opinions are subjective, I interpret "comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a grounded monstrous creature" to mean that it is no longer swooping or hard to hit. Evidently, others don't. Ultimately it's up to your conscious - and your gaming group.

YMDC is *not* about RAW debates, it only asks that you differentiate between "rules as written" and "how I would play it". You can debate RAW all you like, but it has all the merit of debating the spherical patterns in filth.

What we know is this - the rules do not tell you that the FMC is no longer swooping once it is grounded.

HOWEVER

The rules also do not tell you that it is NOT swooping.

So to each individual gamer - do you, as a human being, interpret "Comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature", as well as its context, meaning that the FMC loses hard to hit?

DeathReaper wrote:the MC is not assaultable the rest of the game, just in the following Assault phase.

But the Grounded Special rule is not lost, so each following Assault Phase you can still be assaulted. After all, you are still Grounded in 2 turns, right?

Testify wrote:All opinions are subjective, I interpret "comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a grounded monstrous creature" to mean that it is no longer swooping or hard to hit. Evidently, others don't. Ultimately it's up to your conscious - and your gaming group.

What does "your conscious" have to do with it?

Keeping Hard to hit has its own drawbacks...

Neither is advantageous really.

Testify wrote:The rules also do not tell you that it is NOT swooping.

And I say again:
"The rules don't say I can't!"

If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

This is taken from here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

It is a good read. have a go, you might find it a very interesting read.

Captain Antivas wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:the MC is not assaultable the rest of the game, just in the following Assault phase.

But the Grounded Special rule is not lost, so each following Assault Phase you can still be assaulted. After all, you are still Grounded in 2 turns, right?

How does "in the following Assault phase..." equate to the rest of the game?

it is only able to be assaulted when?

"in the following Assault phase..."

and not any longer, because it says it is only able to be assaulted "in the following Assault phase..."


P.S. Captain Antivas, Testify, et al.

Point 1) I am already convinced that your reading is the way GW intended the rules to be written, but RAW lacks enough language to make it true.

Point 2) I fully expect the FAQ to say that the FMC is no longer swooping once it is Grounded, But you have to agree there is no explicit language to the contrary.

If we can agree on Point 1 and 2 above, I think we can let this rest until the FAQ comes out. (Which will say that Hard to hit is lost, at least I am 99% sure that it will say that).

DeathReaper wrote:

losing swooping was probably how the rules were intended.

They are just not written to lose Swooping currently.

They kind of are written that way, just in a roundabout way.

Reaper, Your argument loses automatically as it is not consistent with other arguments you have made in other threads. You were either disingenuous there or you are being so here. And since there is no way to tell which your credibility is shot. Be consistent with your arguments. Context matters, and in this case the context makes the meaning clear, even RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:
What does "your conscious" have to do with it?

Keeping Hard to hit has its own drawbacks...

Neither is advantageous really.

It doesn't have drawbacks at all. I'd be happy for my Lords of Change to take their re-rollable 3++s all day if it meant they were 6s to hit.
Hence your conscience. Are you seriously going to try this gak on your friends/regular gamers?

DeathReaper wrote:
And I say again:
"The rules don't say I can't!"

If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

You completely took that quote out of context. I said the rules don't say one thing or the other, and you've inferred that they mean the most absurd rather than the most rational.
Since you've invoked "permissive ruleset"(not mentioned in the rules), I can invoke Occam's Razor.
"other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one."
A Grounded Monstrous Creature losing Hard To Hit is simpler than a Flying Grounded Monstrous Creature that's come crashing down to the ground and is still somehow Hard To Hit.

There's also nothing stopping you - if you take the view that the FMC is still swooping - from Diving again to regain jink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 beigeknight wrote:

They kind of are written that way, just in a roundabout way.

Yeah, I'm all for "Well the RAW say this but we play it like that", but in this instance it's RAW that a FMC is no longer swooping.