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Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And not moving models is a choice you have made for that units movement.

Otherwise, how would you know when you were required to snapfire heavy weapons in an infantry squad? Because you decided not to move them at the start of that unit's move.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This tells us we have a choice to either move our units or to keep the model stationary.

Uhm no. You can refrain from moving units.

Umm that is what I said...

I decided not to move them at the start of their move?

That's not how it works.

Which Models Are Moving
Whether or not a model moves can change how effective it will be in the Shooting phase. You may decided that only some of the models in a unit are going to move this turn. If this is he case, declare which models are remaining stationary just before you start moving the other models of that unit .

Right there, since you clearly need it spelled out, it clearly indicates that there is a difference between when you start moving and when you remain stationary. This whole "at the start of its move that it's not making" isn't even an argument. Please provide the RAW that says all units move each turn there by having a start. You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

If a unit doesn't do something then quite obviously they can't start that something... that's as simple as it gets.

Yes. You 100% can not move your FMC in the Movement phase, and unequivocally NO you don't have to declare a mode. It's right there in the RAW.

"At the start of its move, A FMC must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

If the FMC is in hand to hand, you can't declare a Flight mode because you are not moving. Again at "the start of its move" absolutely refers to physically moving the model as evidenced by the use of "move" on that page.

I can't believe this is even confusing. It's not. You don't move, you don't "start to move", simple as that.

It's also pointless. As far as I can see there's no benefit to not moving over being in glide mode?

 Testify wrote:
It's also pointless. As far as I can see there's no benefit to not moving over being in glide mode?

You're right. There's no "benefit".

The point I was making was that the FMC does not have to be in Gliding or Swooping Mode at all times.
It helps to prove that if someone is following this logic:
Swooping mode = Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping = Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature

Then this must also be True.

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Flying Monstrous Creature that is Grounded = Grounded mode

And if that is True, a FMC that fails its Grounded Test does not have Hard to Hit.

God, GW's worst worded rule ever...

Anyway RAW make sense fluffwise as lets say Hive tyrant getting hit by lasgun doesnt make 90 Degree turn down and crashes but struggles to maintain control of its flight ( thus loosing dive as it cant control it ) and lowers its flight temporarily and it suffers from skimming earth or hitting some trees or buildings.

And about " Bouncing Ball" argument - FMC may ( barely ) recover control over flight after suffering wound BUT when it doesnt have control further shots will destabilizate FMC and cause it to hit more things on its way or crash even harder into it.

Furthermore, even IF big monster with great wing can be shot down by puny lasgun and immiedlity crash most of shooters will fire at about same time on sight of such terrifying creature ( "same time" - ASAP ) and it still moves at decent speed while falling and can get assaulted because it falls just in time for assault phase

Also, Swooping and Gliding are clearly described as movement type for FMC but Grounded is effect ( Debuff ) that affect FMC.

Because of so many ways of interpreting every word in this rule i am going to talk to my local GW manager and discuss creating "house rule" on how it works

Digriz636 wrote:
God, GW's worst worded rule ever...

Anyway RAW make sense fluffwise as lets say Hive tyrant getting hit by lasgun doesnt make 90 Degree turn down and crashes but struggles to maintain control of its flight ( thus loosing dive as it cant control it ) and lowers its flight temporarily and it suffers from skimming earth or hitting some trees or buildings.

And about " Bouncing Ball" argument - FMC may ( barely ) recover control over flight after suffering wound BUT when it doesnt have control further shots will destabilizate FMC and cause it to hit more things on its way or crash even harder into it.

Furthermore, even IF big monster with great wing can be shot down by puny lasgun and immiedlity crash most of shooters will fire at about same time on sight of such terrifying creature ( "same time" - ASAP ) and it still moves at decent speed while falling and can get assaulted because it falls just in time for assault phase

Also, Swooping and Gliding are clearly described as movement type for FMC but Grounded is effect ( Debuff ) that affect FMC.

Because of so many ways of interpreting every word in this rule i am going to talk to my local GW manager and discuss creating "house rule" on how it works

I personally agree with what's in the bold there, but until it's faq'd, I will point out the valid point of the argument I noticed once again.
Hard to hit states that a "swooping monstrous creature" is hard to hit.

Being grounded says that the monstrous creature becomes a. "grounded monstrous creature"

Those are titles, and more importantly, the rulebook took the time out to state that they are titles, which is where I began to believe GW really intended for it to no longer be a swooping monstrous creature once it was grounded and thus lose hard to hit, or they simply made a mistake in how they worded it.

Yes, I can be both a doctor and a plumber. But it does seem pretty intent that the creature changes its title as written in those rules or there would be no reason to state it and just say it loses 'jinx/jynx' and can be assaulted.
Though I agree with most of your assessment, like others I would rather see a faq on it then read disscussions on it, or merely just put it to a vote and whichever has the most yes's I'll play it that way.

With rules as are, I have to agree with it no longer being a "swooping flying monster" once it is grounded, as its title changed. So it is no longer 'hard to hit'.

I love how the people who claim that you get to keep HtH ignore the arguments posted that they cannot refute and make ridiculous counter-arguments that defy both logic and reason. Follow the rules of debate or be mocked.

No consensus will be reached here. This thread really just needs to be locked and we'll have to wait for the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
I love how the people who claim that you lose HtH ignore the arguments posted that they cannot refute and make ridiculous counter-arguments that defy both logic and reason.

Also, fixed that for you. See, it works both ways.

paidinfull wrote:

 Testify wrote:
It's also pointless. As far as I can see there's no benefit to not moving over being in glide mode?

You're right. There's no "benefit".

The point I was making was that the FMC does not have to be in Gliding or Swooping Mode at all times.

Not true, as even FMC's that are deployed at the start of the game, and could not have had the possibility to even have a movement phase are in Gliding Flight Mode.

General warning: If you can't debate calmly and without resorting to personal comments, you're going to lose the privilege of posting here.