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Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
What does "your conscious" have to do with it?

Keeping Hard to hit has its own drawbacks...

Neither is advantageous really.

It doesn't have drawbacks at all. I'd be happy for my Lords of Change to take their re-rollable 3++s all day if it meant they were 6s to hit.
Hence your conscience. Are you seriously going to try this gak on your friends/regular gamers?

I can invoke Occam's Razor.

I do not use MC's

It does not affect me.

Even if I used them, I would not be biased one way or the other.

Occams razor, the simpler explanation is that they did not say Hard to hit is gone, so it stays.

Testify wrote:You completely took that quote out of context. I said the rules don't say one thing or the other

Testify wrote:The rules also do not tell you that it is NOT swooping.

Umm yea I will leave that right there... This is "The rules don't say it is not" which is equivalent to "The rules don't say I can't remove hard to hit"

I really haven't had a good look at 6th, or looked through the last 12 pages clearly, so I apologize if my opinion here is out of place. Without sounding out of the ordinary, I feel they should not lose Hard To Hit until the following phase.

When one shooting weapon glances or penetrates a vehicle, (it's cover save having been failed,) and the vehicle becomes stunned or immobilized, which means it can't move the following turn or possibly at all, does the next enemy shooting at the vehicle in the same phase (assuming immobolized didn't result in wrecked) not have to worry about the cover save? (Cover saves may haven't been removed for vehicle movement in six ed right? Just the need to roll sixes in CC I think.) No, the cover save is still applied because the vehicle, has, technicall, for that part of the phase, moved that fast. So the flier, although grounded for purposes of assault, has still been flying around for the shooting phase. But is no longer hard to hit for purposes of assault, because as far as I can tell, if it was flying you couldn't really assault it.

Mind you this is only my opinion and I would not be upset playing against someone who used this rule. I feel the whole point of the point cost, based of what I read, is based on that hard to hit perspective. I've no angst towards it.

I'm more than willing to change my opinion, but I just haven't read anything that makes me feel they should lose it. The most compelling argument that made me question my view was the differences of being in flight and being grounded, but even still, I feel that would not change in the terms of that shooting phase, but only in the assault phase. As for that phase, the flying monstrous creature should still count as hard to hit. Grounded seemingly only being useful for assaulting the beast.

Yes tactically we all play by (If I can land hits and destroy this my other thing will shoot at this...) but the phase is generally representing an instantaneous round of shooting and orders, as best it can, and though this is poorly represented on board games, as many of us would not like declaring where all are guns were shooting before we rolled for each of them and perfer the tactic of seeing what hits what before declaring where to fire what next...(sorry for that confusing bit...) sometimes, as in this case, I feel they are trying hard to keep the ideal of a phase being a short amount of time in real combat in mind, just as with turbo boosted vehicles still getting their cover save even after they've failed it against other things, the monstrous creature should not lose 'hard to hit' during the shooting phase, only truly being grounded, once again I make the claim, at the start of the assault phase.

(Apologize for grammar mistakes.)

 Runna wrote:


Yes tactically we all play by (If I can land hits and destroy this my other thing will shoot at this...) but the phase is generally representing an instantaneous round of shooting and orders, as best it can, and though this is poorly represented on board games, as many of us would not like declaring where all are guns were shooting before we rolled for each of them and perfer the tactic of seeing what hits what before declaring where to fire what next...(sorry for that confusing bit...) sometimes, as in this case, I feel they are trying hard to keep the ideal of a phase being a short amount of time in real combat in mind, just as with turbo boosted vehicles still getting their cover save even after they've failed it against other things, the monstrous creature should not lose 'hard to hit' during the shooting phase, only truly being grounded, once again I make the claim, at the start of the assault phase.

I think this is a key concept that has come up now and then in rules debates that is assumed to be universally accepted but is not.

I don't believe shooting is supposed to all happen at the same instant. In fact cinematically, and gamewise your units act consecutively. Lets say you have two units side by side and an enemy unit right in front of them. If it was all simultaneous neither unit could move through that space occupied by the enemy unit. Since everything happens consecutively, your first unit can shoot and wipe out the enemy, and the second unit can run (instead of shooting) into the place where the enemy unit was. This could not happen if the shooting phase represented a single instant in time.

I don't think I've read anything suggesting that shooting fluffwise is supposed to happen at the same moment, in fact the timing of a game turn could represent actions occurring over a long time. In this way it makes sense that when one unit shoots a flyer out of the sky, grounding it, the next unit shooting at it has an easier time because the sad FMC is flopping around in the mud.

All models in a single unit fire simultaneously, page 80 last paragraph of Effect of Damage on Passengers, but nowhere does it say all units fire simultaneously.

 Runna wrote:

Yes tactically we all play by (If I can land hits and destroy this my other thing will shoot at this...) but the phase is generally representing an instantaneous round of shooting and orders, as best it can, and though this is poorly represented on board games, as many of us would not like declaring where all are guns were shooting before we rolled for each of them and perfer the tactic of seeing what hits what before declaring where to fire what next...(sorry for that confusing bit...) sometimes, as in this case, I feel they are trying hard to keep the ideal of a phase being a short amount of time in real combat in mind, just as with turbo boosted vehicles still getting their cover save even after they've failed it against other things, the monstrous creature should not lose 'hard to hit' during the shooting phase, only truly being grounded, once again I make the claim, at the start of the assault phase.

(Apologize for grammar mistakes.)

If all shots happen simultaneously and in an instant, how do you explain for the rules permitting destroying a transport and then firing on the disembarked unit?


Here is a synopsis of the discussion

A Flying Monstrous Creature (FMC) is mistakenly thought to only be permitted in one of two modes:

p49
Flight Modes
FMC can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding

What folks fail to see is that a FMC can be in a mode that is neither Swooping nor Gliding.

"At the start of its move, a FMC must declare which mode..."

So if I choose not to move I can choose not to declare either mode. Thus proving that it is possible for a FMC to be neither Swooping nor Gliding.

Individuals who say that FMC don't "lose" Hard to Hit, believe that the following logic is True.
Swooping mode = Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping = Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature

That is in spite of the fact that's an assumption, not written in the rules, so that a FMC qualifies for the following rule:

Hard To Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target to hit. only resolved as Snap shots

The problem here, is that if that is the logic we are using, then the following must also be True.

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Flying Monstrous Creature that is Grounded = Grounded mode

Individuals will say that this isn't possible because the FMC can be in one of only two modes. Which, as you can see above, is absolutely false. If I choose not to move my FMC I don't have to declare a mode and am now legally in neither mode.

Similarly, because "Grounded mode" isn't listed in the Flight mode section, the argument is that it doesn't exist. The problem with this argument is that those rules are for "movement".

FMC can move using one of two flight modes

If I am not attempting to move in Grounded Mode then I am not breaking the Flight mode rule. So yes, I can be in "Grounded mode" so long as I am not attempting to move.

There is also a common misconception that being in "Swooping mode" is what grants Hard to Hit. That is not true.
What grants Hard to Hit is *being* a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Hard To Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target to hit. only resolved as Snap shots

If you are not or no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, as is the case when you BECOME a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you can not legally gain Hard to Hit.
Do Flying Monstrous Creature have HtH? No.
Do Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature have HtH? No.
Do Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature have HtH? No.

Only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature have HtH.

If you are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature then you do NOT have Hard to Hit.

If you are following any of the rules for Grounded Flying Monstrous Creatures, then you are quite obviously NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

P49
Grounded Tests
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the best comes crashing to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armor or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally next turn.

So logically, if you have reached this point in the rules, and are applying the assault stipulation to your Flying Monstrous Creature, and are considering your FMC a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, then no you do not have Hard to Hit, and you never "lost it" you are simply ineligible for the rule. In the end, whether the FMC is Grounded or Suave or nothing... none of that matters.

All that matters after the resolution of the rules, if followed correctly, is that the FMC is *not*, and is no longer, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. Therefor it cannot have Hard to Hit.

paidinfull wrote:


A Flying Monstrous Creature (FMC) is mistakenly thought to only be permitted in one of two modes:

p49
Flight Modes
FMC can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding

What folks fail to see is that a FMC can be in a mode that is neither Swooping nor Gliding.

"At the start of its move, a FMC must declare which mode..."

So if I choose not to move I can choose not to declare either mode. Thus proving that it is possible for a FMC to be neither Swooping nor Gliding.

I'm a bit confused by what you're asserting here. With regards to the rules you've partially quoted, at the start of its [the FMC] move, a FMC must declare which mode... I presume this is that part about which flight mode is chosen (I don't have my book with me right now). You then say that if you choose to not move the FMC you can avoid declaring for either mode. Is that really possible given the partial quote you've provided? If you absolutely must declare which flight mode the FMC has at the start of it's move then you have to do so regardless if you actually move the model.

Is there an exception to the flight mode declaration if you choose not to move the FMC?

-Yad

So wrong on multiple levels. An FMC must be either swooping or gliding - that is it.

One of my larger problems in posting is the speed in which I write, which limits my ability to properly convey my meaning.
I meant, a simultaneous round in which shooting occured seperatley from other actions, but more intentionally that it isn't really seperate from the other phases by a large amount of time, meaning that the phase itself and the movement phase are seperate as if movement and shooting don't happen at the same time even though you can choose to shoot different targets meaning that what happenes in the movement phase doesn't happen at the same time as what happens in the shooting phase and that there is no simultaneous actions happening because the tactics of such a board game are based on what we choose to do in what phase...So, in my not well written post, possibly confusing because, sadly, its how I think about thigns... I meant to say, that both player phases are happening at the same base in time, thus if a vehicle moving fast is hard to hit because it was moving fast until it is wrecked, then so should a flying monstrous creature. Because it is swooping whilst everyone was shooting at it, and although it has been shot, falling from the sky, like a vehicle stopping at its destination, wouldn't happen until the turn was over, or as it seemed in six, the shooting phase was over. I feel a bit foolish for misunderstanding that part of the game concept that there is no simultaneous actions in it. I suppose it is extremely possible I merely viewed that way for my own personal enjoyement, shame on me there.

HOWEVER, based off the reatiration of paidinfull and the assessment of the rule as paidinfull broke it down, I will at this juncture, agree with his assessment. As it seems, a "Swooping Monstrous Creature" being grounded is covered in the rules, assuming he is taking pages from the actual rulebook, and as it is what sold me on the part is the quote about what counts as hard to hit. It says a swwoping flying monstrous creature, which you are no longer if you count as grounded, which it says you count as. You really can't be both I would gather. Though I could still make an argument about the creature not landing until the assault phase began, I will not. As my assumption of simultaneousness was hardily reprimanded with obvious points against it. Making the wording of hard to hit and what happens to a swooping monstrous creature when its grounded.

I agree with the creature no longer having hard to hit.

`Alot of argument here says Grounding dosent say you lose swooping. It also dosent say you keep swooping and keep hard to hit yet it allows your challenger to assault, you cant jink, and can return to normal movement next turn.

If and when GW faq's this your sad arguments to the contrary will be put to rest.

Whats even sadder is theres and argument at all about simple logic. Too much importance is put on Raw and Rai, which to my understanding is not the venacular of Gw at all. Its a made up term used to try and win arguments..

If your grounded your not flying, nor swooping. Not flying can be assaulted, cant jink and are hit at normal Bs. Just because they didnt spell out every senario to the mass's does not mean you can bend senarios to fit your desires.

I myself if my opponent was to discuss this with me and we cant agree we do the dice roll. Id live with the results. However when my flying deamons are grounded I say good job have at them. I wont even argue the point since ill rely simply on logic.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So wrong on multiple levels. An FMC must be either swooping or gliding - that is it.

Completely different to what's being discussed here, but no.
A FMC can choose to simply remain stationary. For all intents and purposes this is the same as gliding since it offers no benefits, but there's no reason to assume that a FMC *has* to move (and therefore, has to pick a movement method). You may as well say that a vehicle has to select cruising or combat speed.

Lungpickle wrote:
Alot of argument here says Grounding dosent say you lose swooping. It also dosent say you keep swooping and keep hard to hit yet it allows your challenger to assault, you cant jink, and can return to normal movement next turn.

Right the permissive Ruleset tells us that.

It has to say you lose it otherwise you do not lose it.

It dosent say you keep swooping and keep hard to hit because it does not need to say you keep it, you already have it and nothing removes Hard to hit or Swooping. Because of the Permissive ruleset.

 Testify wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So wrong on multiple levels. An FMC must be either swooping or gliding - that is it.

Completely different to what's being discussed here, but no.
A FMC can choose to simply remain stationary. For all intents and purposes this is the same as gliding since it offers no benefits, but there's no reason to assume that a FMC *has* to move (and therefore, has to pick a movement method). You may as well say that a vehicle has to select cruising or combat speed.

Except you still have to declare a movement mode even if you remain stationary.

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

You must declare a flight mode.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Except you still have to declare a movement mode even if you remain stationary.

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

You must declare a flight mode.

"At the start of its move". If you don't move, you don't declare.

Not true, since even when remaining stationary "At the start of its move" always happens.

They are even in a flight mode at the start of the game when they are deployed before they even had a chance to move.

 Testify wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So wrong on multiple levels. An FMC must be either swooping or gliding - that is it.

Completely different to what's being discussed here, but no.
A FMC can choose to simply remain stationary. For all intents and purposes this is the same as gliding since it offers no benefits, but there's no reason to assume that a FMC *has* to move (and therefore, has to pick a movement method). You may as well say that a vehicle has to select cruising or combat speed.

Then he is in the glide mode and functions like a jump MC.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not true, since even when remaining stationary "At the start of its move" always happens.

They are even in a flight mode at the start of the game when they are deployed before they even had a chance to move.

That is absolutely preposterous.

"At the start of its move..."

If I do not move then there is no start.
I can't believe you're even debating that.

It does not say "At the start of its Movement Phase" if it did you'd have a point, but it doesn't so you don't.
They are not in a flight mode at the start of the game. They're not even on the table at that point since they must start in Reserves.

If I choose NOT to move then there is no "at the start of my move". Did I move? No.
So how can something happen at the start of something that never happened?

Ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So wrong on multiple levels. An FMC must be either swooping or gliding - that is it.

Completely different to what's being discussed here, but no.
A FMC can choose to simply remain stationary. For all intents and purposes this is the same as gliding since it offers no benefits, but there's no reason to assume that a FMC *has* to move (and therefore, has to pick a movement method). You may as well say that a vehicle has to select cruising or combat speed.

Then he is in the glide mode and functions like a jump MC.

No he is not.

Read the rule.

"At the start of its move" is not the same as "At the start of its movement phase"

You are 100% wrong.

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Except you still have to declare a movement mode even if you remain stationary.

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

You must declare a flight mode.

"At the start of its move". If you don't move, you don't declare.

That's an incredibly literal interpretation of the rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're equating "At the start of its move" to "as you start to physically move the model". I don't think you're correct. During the movement phase you iterate through all the units/models you control and decide how you will or will not move them. The start of its move is when you make a movement decision for that model. The actual results of your decision are irrelevant. The FMC rule forces you to choose the flight mode.

-Yad

paidinfull wrote:
They are not in a flight mode at the start of the game. They're not even on the table at that point since they must start in Reserves.

I do not know where to begin to tell you that this is 100% incorrect.

FMC's can start on the table.

If they do they are in Glide mode.

Perhaps have a read of P.49

"Ridiculous" indeed.

Yad wrote:

That's an incredibly literal interpretation of the rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're equating "At the start of its move" to "as you start to physically move the model". I don't think you're correct. During the movement phase you iterate through all the units/models you control and decide how you will or will not move them. The start of its move is when you make a movement decision for that model. The FMC rule forces you to choose the flight mode.
-Yad

You've made all of that up. Nothing in the rules makes you go through all your units and do that. There are plenty of things that you do at the start of a model's move - certain spells and abilities, for example.

Testify wrote:

Yad wrote:
That's an incredibly literal interpretation of the rule. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're equating "At the start of its move" to "as you start to physically move the model". I don't think you're correct. During the movement phase you iterate through all the units/models you control and decide how you will or will not move them. The start of its move is when you make a movement decision for that model. The FMC rule forces you to choose the flight mode.
-Yad

You've made all of that up. Nothing in the rules makes you go through all your units and do that. There are plenty of things that you do at the start of a model's move - certain spells and abilities, for example.

So during the Movement phase you don't decide how to move your models/units?

-Yad

 DeathReaper wrote:

I do not know where to begin to tell you that this is 100% incorrect.

FMC's can start on the table.

If they do they are in Glide mode.

Perhaps have a read of P.49

"Ridiculous" indeed.

A FMC coming in from reserves cannot do so without moving - hence why it needs to choose glide or swoop.

A FMC already on the board is perfectly capable of standing still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:

So during the Movement phase you don't decide how to move your models/units?

-Yad

Not if it isn't moving, no.

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

I do not know where to begin to tell you that this is 100% incorrect.

FMC's can start on the table.

If they do they are in Glide mode.

Perhaps have a read of P.49

"Ridiculous" indeed.

A FMC coming in from reserves cannot do so without moving - hence why it needs to choose glide or swoop.

A FMC already on the board is perfectly capable of standing still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:

So during the Movement phase you don't decide how to move your models/units?

-Yad

Not if it isn't moving, no.

oh my

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

I do not know where to begin to tell you that this is 100% incorrect.

FMC's can start on the table.

If they do they are in Glide mode.

Perhaps have a read of P.49

"Ridiculous" indeed.

A FMC coming in from reserves cannot do so without moving - hence why it needs to choose glide or swoop.

A FMC already on the board is perfectly capable of standing still.

Yes a FMC already on the board can stand still.

He still needs to chose Swooping or Gliding (Though it is automatically Gliding because you did not move and Swooping requires at least 12 inches of movement).

FMC's are even in a flight mode at the start of the game when they are deployed before they even had a chance to move.

Yad wrote:

oh my

So when you play 40k, you point to each unit in your army and tell your opponent what you're going to do with it?
If you don't move a model, it hasn't moved. Stop acting like this is somehow weird.

Not moving a model IS deciding how to move your models/units.

You made a choice to keep the model stationary at the start of its move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not moving a model IS deciding how to move your models/units.

You made a choice to keep the model stationary at the start of its move.

Ding, ding, ding. This While you may not formally announce to your opponent that you aren't moving a model/unit (which I do, not only for my benefit, but also so that my opponent is aware of what I'm dong), you are making a movement decision at the start of that model/unit's move.

-Yad

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not moving a model IS deciding how to move your models/units.

You made a choice to keep the model stationary at the start of its move.

Page number?

You either choose to move your models or you don't.

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not moving a model IS deciding how to move your models/units.

You made a choice to keep the model stationary at the start of its move.

Page number?

You either choose to move your models or you don't.

Page 10. Left Column, 2nd Graph, 1st sentence in bold, and 2nd sentence.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units" (1st bold sentence).

"until you have moved all of the units you wish to move" (2nd sentence).

This tells us we have a choice to either move our units or to keep the model stationary.

This is done in the movement phase, and logically any choices that need to be made at the start of a models move must be made at this point.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not moving a model IS deciding how to move your models/units.

You made a choice to keep the model stationary at the start of its move.

Page number?

You either choose to move your models or you don't.

Page 10. Left Column, 2nd Graph, 1st sentence in bold, and 2nd sentence.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units" (1st bold sentence).

"until you have moved all of the units you wish to move" (2nd sentence).

This tells us we have a choice to either move our units or to keep the model stationary.

This is done in the movement phase, and logically any choices that need to be made at the start of a models move must be made at this point.

Uhm no. You can refrain from moving units. The quotes you've provided say that. Nothing in the rulebook makes you go through each unit 1 by 1 and declare how they are moving.

And not moving models is a choice you have made for that units movement.

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This tells us we have a choice to either move our units or to keep the model stationary.

Uhm no. You can refrain from moving units.

Umm that is what I said...

 DeathReaper wrote:
And not moving models is a choice you have made for that units movement.

Otherwise, how would you know when you were or were not required to snapfire heavy weapons in an infantry squad? Because you decided to move or not move them at the start of that unit's move.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This tells us we have a choice to either move our units or to keep the model stationary.

Uhm no. You can refrain from moving units.

Umm that is what I said...