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The rule as written is fine. It's not the fault of GW that some people want to read more into the rule than is there. The term grounded is self explanatory. The rules do not state that a grounded FMC is still flying.

...Where does it say you are not swooping anymore?

I think the better question is where does it state the FMC is still flying? Ah - it doesn't. If it did then you could but it doesn't so you can't.

Dozer Blades wrote:The rule as written is fine. It's not the fault of GW that some people want to read more into the rule than is there. The term grounded is self explanatory. The rules do not state that a grounded FMC is still flying.

...Where does it say you are not swooping anymore?

I think the better question is where does it state the FMC is still flying? Ah - it doesn't. If it did then you could but it doesn't so you can't.

Your logic is backwards here. The state that the fmc is in is swooping, therefore it doesn't need to say it's still doing that, it needs to say it's no longer swooping in order to change it. This doesn't happen until your next movement phase.

The FMC must count as having fallen to the ground - that's quite clear. To say that it leaps back up into the skies is not.

Dozer Blades wrote:The FMC must count as having fallen to the ground - that's quite clear. To say that it leaps back up into the skies is not.

But it's not clear. It never changes state. You're trying to use your own logic to counter a writen rule and that doesn't work. You're trying to make it what you want. Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant. We can't claim to know their intent behind every rule. This rule is writen as it is writen. It specifically states what you lose when the FMC is grounded, and no longer swooping is not there. Even if the intent was to no longer be swooping then it would have been MUCH easier to just say no longer swooping, but they didn't. They said you can be assault and lose jink. That's it. That's all that happens. No amount of logical argument can change what the rule states. If it gets FAQed then that's fine and I'll play it how it is FAQed.

I am interpreting the rule based upon how it's written - not how I would like it to read. I have a Flyrant in my Tyranid army... Your interpretation would be great however I'm of the opinion you are wrong. Like I said the term grounded is very specific.

You're right it is specific. It specifically has a rule that specifically applies certain conditions when certain conditions are met. To sum up, while flying, if you're hit, you roll the check, if you fail you're grounded, if you're grounded you take a Str9 hit, don't get jink, and the FMC can be assaulted that turn.

It does not say anything else. To assume more conditions are applied or removed is wrong. It is a clearly defined rule. You're assumption on the rule is based soley on your definition of grounded. I agree with you that the word grounded would make sense that you're no longer flying, but the rules do not agree with that. We must follow the rules otherwise there is no game.

You are simply adding to a rule certain conditions that do not exist in the rule.

The rules as written right now do not remove swooping as your mode of movement even after a failed grounding test, they just add grounded.

You're looking for the logic in this line of thinking and if that's what you need look at it this way. A creature is difficult to hit while it is moving quickly, now when it crashes to the ground it is moving just as quickly if not more so... just towards to ground. Multiple grounding tests all ow us to show the difference between a round of shooting taking a flying creature off balance and wounding itself on the way down. While multiple grounding tests represent a large amount of fire being directed at the creature, taking its wings out from under it and it crashing to the ground like a meteor.

From a reality perspective the army wouldn't be firing one at a time to see if it comes down, they are all going to be firing at the same time so they are all shooting a swooping creature.

If you're looking for the logic in the word grounding though, you're not going to find it as it is clearly just a word they threw in there because the test needed a name of some sort and that fit the theme.

Maybe it will get FAQ'd and changed, but until then just play your nids and enjoy the perk your tyrant gets in not being instantly killed for not having tyrant guard.

I would never play a rule intentionally wrong to gain an advantage. : (

Dozer Blades wrote:I would never play a rule intentionally wrong to gain an advantage. : (

Considering that 3 guardsmen rapiding firing have a 1 in 3 chance of doing a S9 no save hit is not an advantage.
With nothing better to shoot out, my mortar team grounded a flyrant.
If you've got spare squads sitting around, it's not all that hard to roll a six.

-Matt

Easy for most guard armies but not necessarily the case for other armies.

It's not better for any specific army. It's still easy enough to roll one six with any squad, which is all you need to force a grounding roll. On the other hand, you still have to hit a FMC with a 6 to wound it.

If there is a winner here it's the FMC. And let's be honest here... Nid need all the help they can get since it's pretty obvious GW hates the nid. The only other army that has enough FMC to matter is daemons, and they're not in great shape either.

Also you're not playing it wrong to gain an advantage if you stay swooping. You're playing it right, and it helps make flyrants usable this edition.

I am playing it right.

DogOfWar wrote:

TheKbob wrote:And how hard do the folks at GW *FACEDESK* when they see threads like this?

My *facedesk* would be pretty hard if anyone from GW emerged from their ivory tower and actually read a useful discussion by tabletop gamers regarding a poorly written rule.

And how hard to they *FACEDESK* when they realize how its their poorly written document causing all the confusion...

Don't malign the people on this thread trying to play using the rules instead of some game loosely based on the rules.

Dozer Blades wrote:I am playing it right.

No.



Funny how that works both ways, eh?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:I am playing it right.

No.



Funny how that works both ways, eh?

No, yes. Fixed that for you.

Dozer Blades wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:I am playing it right.

No.



Funny how that works both ways, eh?

No, yes. Fixed that for you.

There's no wiggle room here. The rule is defined and you're adding to it what you think it should be based on the English definition of grounded. This doesn't work.

Dozer Blades wrote:Grounded =/= Flying.

You have a rules quote that says this?

Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

DeathReaper wrote:Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

HoverBoy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

What you've missed is that you're being trolled.
Now quit feeding it.

No, I really think he just thinks the rule works that way.

HoverBoy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

What you've missed is that you're being trolled.
Now quit feeding it.

I have quoted the rules previously and they were disregarded based upon personal interpretation.

The rules for Grounded, tell you that you BECOME Grounded. From that point on the RAW, not me, refers to the Flying Monstrous Creature as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Not a Gliding Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, not a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is still Gliding, and not a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is still Swooping,. Just a

GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE.

The only people reading into the rules beyond what they say are the people insisting that a GFMC is still Swooping. You have absolutely no RAW support for a SGFMC nor any direction on how to play a GFMC that is still Swooping. None at all.

You have people keep shouting out permissive ruleset like a bunch of parrots when they have no idea what they are talking about;

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

In this case you are specifically told that you BECOME Grounded. Your argument that that declaration does not necessarily negate Swooping is then further debunked when the RAW no longer refers to you as a Swooping Fling Monstrous Creature, but a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. The rule for Grounded then goes on to specifically clarify when you get to move normally (Swooping or Gliding) which is on its next turn.

I also made the point that your argument for a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a fruitless argument because you will still not benefit from Hard to Hit. Hard to Hit is explicit in who it applies, Swooping Monstrous Creature. So even if you ignore the RAW that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatue BECOMES a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and create your mythical SGFMC or GFMC that is still Swooping, Hard to Hit only applies to a SFMC.

Nice try at easter egging, rules lawyering, or just flat out making up rules, but RAW is against not only your argument, but also against your proposed advantage of being Hard to Hit while being Grounded.

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

When Does Swooping end?

It ends when the Rule say it ends, which is at the start of the MC's next movement phase.

To make it end at any other time, you need to have specific permission to no longer count as Swooping.

Where is that specific permission to no longer count as Swooping in the rules?

What page number?

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

It does tell you to be both. you are Swooping as per movement mode, and Grounded because of being hit and failing a test.

There is no permission to STOP the Swooping Status, so it is still Swooping.

Grounded Specifically tells you what other rules are in effect.

That is is.

That is how a permissive ruleset works.

You need something to say you are no longer Swooping. and there are no rules that say that until the MC's next movement phase.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Again, Wrong.

The RAW does say you are both. You are Swooping. You become Grounded. We are not told they are mutually exclusive and there is no rule conflict that would mandate they be so. We are not told to stop Swooping.

Therefor, there is no permission to STOP swooping. Permissive works both ways. If you are told to do something, you must also be told to stop doing it.

DeathReaper wrote:When Does Swooping end?

It ends when the Rule say it ends, which is at the start of the MC's next movement phase.

To make it end at any other time, you need to have specific permission to no longer count as Swooping.

Where is that specific permission to no longer count as Swooping in the rules?

What page number?

Under Grounded when the explicit RAW tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Before that you were a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and then you became a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. You are looking for permission NOT to be a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature when the very RAW specifcally tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping? You won't because it doesn't exist.

And both of you still can't even begin to address the fact that your whole reason for arguing for the Hard to Hit advantage is pointless because you still wont be able to use it per the RAW requirements of Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When Does Swooping end?

It ends when the Rule say it ends, which is at the start of the MC's next movement phase.

To make it end at any other time, you need to have specific permission to no longer count as Swooping.

Where is that specific permission to no longer count as Swooping in the rules?

What page number?

Under Grounded when the explicit RAW tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Before that you were a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and then you became a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. You are looking for permission NOT to be a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature when the very RAW specifcally tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping? You won't because it doesn't exist.

And both of you still can't even begin to address the fact that your whole reason for arguing for the Hard to Hit advantage is pointless because you still wont be able to use it per the RAW requirements of Hard to Hit.

You do not need permission to keep swooping. You have it when you are told to choose between Swooping or Gliding.


In order for this to change you need explicit instruction that you stop swooping.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn." P.49

Those are the only rules adjustments that the Grounded status adjusts.

Nowhere does it state that you are now Gliding, so you are still Swooping.

Grey Templar wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Again, Wrong.

The RAW does say you are both. You are Swooping. You become Grounded. We are not told they are mutually exclusive and there is no rule conflict that would mandate they be so. We are not told to stop Swooping.

Therefor, there is no permission to STOP swooping. Permissive works both ways. If you are told to do something, you must also be told to stop doing it.

And you have the same problem as DR.

The RAW says you are a Swooping Flying Monstrous creature. The RAW says you become Grounded and then specifically refers to you as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Now where in the Grounded rules does it say that you are still Swooping? Where in the Grounded rules does it say you count as Swoopong? Where in the Grounded rules does it refer to you as a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature? It doesn't one single time.

Once you become a Grounded Flying Monstrsous Creature you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Monstrous Creature which is exactly what the rules for Grounded does.

Also as with DR, keep ignoring the fact that your whole argument is pointless.

Grounded is not a Flight mode you can choose.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote: The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping?

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes Graph.

This details that they are Swooping until the start of their next turn.

Now, where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to be not a Swooping creature until the start of their next turn?