Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I really had no plans to get into this debate until I actually read the rules in question and then began to question the sportsmanship of everyone in this thread trying to maintain that a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is still either Swooping or Gliding.

Will this ever stop?
It's sportsmanlike to play by the rules. It's sports,a like to have a rules discussion. It's not sportsmanlike to insinuate cheating just because the rules aren't 100% clear.

Dear god... Discussions in YMDC are rarely played the way they're argued.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I really had no plans to get into this debate until I actually read the rules in question and then began to question the sportsmanship of everyone in this thread trying to maintain that a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is still either Swooping or Gliding.

Will this ever stop?
It's sportsmanlike to play by the rules. It's sports,a like to have a rules discussion. It's not sportsmanlike to insinuate cheating just because the rules aren't 100% clear.

Dear god... Discussions in YMDC are rarely played the way they're argued.

Yea here we argue RAW, that don't mean we always follow it IRL.
With that said the RAW in this situation is clear and arguing is pointless, honestly i suggest you get together with your gaming group and house rule it, other than that ask the TO.

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Nothing states that swooping ever ends. Note that the gliding entry does not specifiy that Hard To Hit is no longer in effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Except thats not what Grounded says.


Grounded says you lose your Jink save and can be assaulted. I doesn't say you cease to Swoop.

Unlike the part where you choose to either Swoop or Glide. The language there is that one is exclusive of the other.

Grounded is not exclusive of Swooping. Its mearly a substate of Swooping.

You are inferring that it is a substate of swooping. You have no RAW argument to back it up.

Semantically speaking it is obvious that it over-rides swooping, to the extent that they didn't feel the need to explicitly state it. Any more than a model that's dead is no longer alive, or a model with 1 wound no longer has 2 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoverBoy wrote:
Yea here we argue RAW, that don't mean we always follow it IRL.
With that said the RAW in this situation is clear and arguing is pointless, honestly i suggest you get together with your gaming group and house rule it, other than that ask the TO.

A lot of people in YMDC are so hooked on this argument that they will insist that RAW points to an absurd and badly-written rule that proves that GW are incompetant. But this rule is not badly written - grounding over-rides swooping.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Nothing states that swooping ever ends. Note that the gliding entry does not specifiy that Hard To Hit is no longer in effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Except thats not what Grounded says.


Grounded says you lose your Jink save and can be assaulted. I doesn't say you cease to Swoop.

Unlike the part where you choose to either Swoop or Glide. The language there is that one is exclusive of the other.

Grounded is not exclusive of Swooping. Its mearly a substate of Swooping.

You are inferring that it is a substate of swooping. You have no RAW argument to back it up.

Semantically speaking it is obvious that it over-rides swooping, to the extent that they didn't feel the need to explicitly state it. Any more than a model that's dead is no longer alive, or a model with 1 wound no longer has 2 wounds.

Actually, I have a RAW argument that they both apply.

Because Grounded doesn't say you stop Swooping, you do not stop it. Permissive rule set you know.


The only thing Grounded does is override two things Swooping applies to your creature. You no longer have a Jink save and you may be assaulted. That is all.

Therefore, the RAW is that the FMC is still Swooping. It is still Hard to Hit, but the other 2 effects of Swooping have been specifically removed because of the Grounded rule.


Grounded and Swooping are not in conflict because Grounded comes in a specific order of operations and has priority(but never removes the Swooping state)

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Nothing states that swooping ever ends. Note that the gliding entry does not specifiy that Hard To Hit is no longer in effect.

You keep saying this, even after it's been pointed out that in the 'Changing Flight Mode' section, it says you must choose 'Swooping or Gliding'. They are exclusive states. If you are Gliding then you behave exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature (no Hard to Hit, Dive, Grounding Tests, etc), if you choose Swooping then all the Swooping rules apply.

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

The Grounded rules does exactly that when it specifically tells you that the Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES Grounded and then refers specifically to it from that point as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

From that point of BECOMING a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature again, which the rule allows when it tells you that you can move normally in its next turn.

That is how a permissive ruleset works. The rule tells you that you BECOME Grounded and then gives you permission to BECOME Swooping or Gliding on its next turn.

Despite the explaination above, it still wouldn't matter when it comes to Hard to Hit because that rule is 100% clear on what it applies to, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. There is absolutely zero RAW support room for the mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature to maintain the requirements of Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

The Grounded rules does exactly that when it specifically tells you that the Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES Grounded and then refers specifically to it from that point as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

From that point of BECOMING a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature again, which the rule allows when it tells you that you can move normally in its next turn.

That is how a permissive ruleset works. The rule tells you that you BECOME Grounded and then gives you permission to BECOME Swooping or Gliding on its next turn.

Despite the explaination above, it still wouldn't matter when it comes to Hard to Hit because that rule is 100% clear on what it applies to, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. There is absolutely zero RAW support room for the mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature to maintain the requirements of Hard to Hit.

Wrong, in a permissive ruleset you MUST be told to stop doing something if you are doing it for that action/state of being to cease.

I am either poor or rich. I become a College Student. Does that mean that I am no longer either poor or rich? No, they are no mutually exclusive states.

We are not told to stop swooping. We are very specifically told that we no longer get a Jink save and that we can be assaulted.

If they had meant for the FMC to not be swooping they would have said as much. It would have removed the Jink save, allow the MC to be assaulted, and have removed Hard to Hit all at once. But they only said "you no longer get a jink save and can be assaulted"


They are still a Swooping FMC for all purposes, with special exceptions to the normal rules as outlined in th Grounded rules.

You can't assault a swooping FMC - therefore its no longer swooping after failing a grounding test.

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, I have a RAW argument that they both apply.

Because Grounded doesn't say you stop Swooping, you do not stop it. Permissive rule set you know.


The only thing Grounded does is override two things Swooping applies to your creature. You no longer have a Jink save and you may be assaulted. That is all.

Therefore, the RAW is that the FMC is still Swooping. It is still Hard to Hit, but the other 2 effects of Swooping have been specifically removed because of the Grounded rule.


Grounded and Swooping are not in conflict because Grounded comes in a specific order of operations and has priority(but never removes the Swooping state)

Yep. Nothing removes the Swooping state. The rules state that you choose to MOVE as swooping or gliding. They don't state that all previous effects no longer apply. Hard to Hit has no expiration in the rule, therefore it applies indefinitely. "Permissive Ruleset" eh?

undertow wrote:
You keep saying this, even after it's been pointed out that in the 'Changing Flight Mode' section, it says you must choose 'Swooping or Gliding'. They are exclusive states.

Yep, but...

undertow wrote:
If you are Gliding then you behave exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature (no Hard to Hit, Dive, Grounding Tests, etc), if you choose Swooping then all the Swooping rules apply.

Where does it say this in the rulebook? Find me the page where it says that hard to hit is cancelled once the FMC starts gliding again.

If a Grounded Monstrous Creature still has Hard To Hit, then a gliding one must as well - the rules do not say that Grounding ends Hard To Hit, they also don't say that Gliding ends it.

Testify wrote:Yep. Nothing removes the Swooping state. The rules state that you choose to MOVE as swooping or gliding. They don't state that all previous effects no longer apply. Hard to Hit has no expiration in the rule, therefore it applies indefinitely. "Permissive Ruleset" eh?

Actually the rules for Swooping/Gliding remove the state at the start of its next turn. Re-read P.49. It tells you this specifically under the "Changing Flight Mode" section.

As it stands that is the only way to change your flight mode.

Testify wrote:

undertow wrote:
You keep saying this, even after it's been pointed out that in the 'Changing Flight Mode' section, it says you must choose 'Swooping or Gliding'. They are exclusive states.

Yep, but...

undertow wrote:
If you are Gliding then you behave exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature (no Hard to Hit, Dive, Grounding Tests, etc), if you choose Swooping then all the Swooping rules apply.

Where does it say this in the rulebook? Find me the page where it says that hard to hit is cancelled once the FMC starts gliding again.

If a Grounded Monstrous Creature still has Hard To Hit, then a gliding one must as well - the rules do not say that Grounding ends Hard To Hit, they also don't say that Gliding ends it.

Page 49. in the rulebook says that.

The underlined argument is Incorrect.

Dozer Blades wrote:You can't assault a swooping FMC - therefore its no longer swooping after failing a grounding test.

No, the Grounding test's effect is that it gives an exception to the rule you can't assault a FMC thats Swooping. It specifically allows you to assault a Swooping FMC.

Testify wrote:
You are inferring that it is a substate of swooping. You have no RAW argument to back it up.

Semantically speaking it is obvious that it over-rides swooping, to the extent that they didn't feel the need to explicitly state it. Any more than a model that's dead is no longer alive, or a model with 1 wound no longer has 2 wounds.

Normally I would completely agree with you, but in this case, the rules are so specific to set out that an FMC is either Gliding or Swooping that your argument falls apart. Grounded is an effect or state, NOT a movement mode. The rules make zero RAW relationship with Grounded and the two movement states that they so clearly define at the beginning of the FMC rules. Comparing it to being alive and dead is an invalid argument as alive / dead are mutually exclusive in RAW, RAI, semantically, whatever.

Had the rules stated "Your FMC is either Gliding, Swopping, or Grounded," you'd have an argument. But saying that Grounded is a third movement state doesn't hold any water. In terms of RAW, it would be like saying I wasn't Swooping because I was Raged. I'm not saying it is what GW intended, I'm just saying the rules are total fail.

Grey Templar wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

The Grounded rules does exactly that when it specifically tells you that the Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES Grounded and then refers specifically to it from that point as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

From that point of BECOMING a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature again, which the rule allows when it tells you that you can move normally in its next turn.

That is how a permissive ruleset works. The rule tells you that you BECOME Grounded and then gives you permission to BECOME Swooping or Gliding on its next turn.

Despite the explaination above, it still wouldn't matter when it comes to Hard to Hit because that rule is 100% clear on what it applies to, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. There is absolutely zero RAW support room for the mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature to maintain the requirements of Hard to Hit.

Wrong, in a permissive ruleset you MUST be told to stop doing something if you are doing it for that action/state of being to cease.

I am either poor or rich. I become a College Student. Does that mean that I am no longer either poor or rich? No, they are no mutually exclusive states.

We are not told to stop swooping. We are very specifically told that we no longer get a Jink save and that we can be assaulted.

If they had meant for the FMC to not be swooping they would have said as much. It would have removed the Jink save, allow the MC to be assaulted, and have removed Hard to Hit all at once. But they only said "you no longer get a jink save and can be assaulted"


They are still a Swooping FMC for all purposes, with special exceptions to the normal rules as outlined in th Grounded rules.

You are pushing a, "The rules don't say I can't, so I can", argument which is not how this game works.

When the rules tell you that you BECOME a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Monstrous Creature again, which is exactly what the rules do by telling you that it can move normally on its next turn.

The very fact that the GFMC is given permission to move normally on its next turn supports that Grounded is a specific state that is not Swooping or Gliding as both are the normal modes for a FMC.

This reminds me of the Dreadknight with a personal teleporter argument on the Bolter & Chainsword, that despite the RAW telling you that it became JI, people tried to create a mythical JI/MC hybrid with zero rules support. This was later proved by the FAQ to be wrong as they made the DK with a personal teleporter a MC that only moved like JI, not a MC/JI hybrid. The people were wrong on creating a new unit type then and you are wrong on this one now.

The RAW is clear, a GFMC is not a SFMC nor a GFMC. And there is no such thing as a SGFMC nor a GGFMC.

a FMC that has been grounded still chose Swooping at the start of its movement phase. It is still in Swooping Flight Mode.

It lasts until the start of its next turn, as nothing states that Swooping is removed.

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes" P.49

That is it, only 2 modes.

So then if it grounded it's no longer in a flight mode.

Dozer Blades wrote:So then if it grounded it's no longer in a flight mode.

And the rules that state that are on what page?

There is no permission to not be in a flight mode.

No, Grounded is not a mode. Its mearly a modification of Swooping.

Dude you just proved it yourself in your last post. You've already quoted the page - hence no need for me to repeat it.

Dozer Blades wrote:Dude you just proved it yourself in your last post. You've already quoted the page - hence no need for me to repeat it.

Quote where I "Proved it"

I do not see anything that states that (a Grounded MC is no longer in Swooping Flight Mode.)

The word grounded explicitly implies the unit is no longer flying. This is just something that you want but the rules don't support your stance.

No, I do not "want or not want it." I do not care either way as long as the rules are followed.

Please do not accuse me of having a motive when clearly there is none. I look at the rules with an Impartial eye, please do not make accusations to the contrary.

The rules may imply that it looses Swooping, but unless they actually say that the MC looses Swooping then it does not loose Swooping, and the rules that go with it.

My explaination for it is that the FMC doesn't actually hit the ground till the end of the shooting phase, so its still in the air and as such is hard to hit but each hit might unbalance it even more. Hence it taking more hits by face planting.

Grounded =/= Flying

Pretty simply and nowhere does the rules state it occurs at the end of the shooting phase... Grasping at straws now.

Dozer Blades wrote:Grounded =/= Flying.

You have a rules quote that says this?

Please quote it, or tell me where I can read this information.

If not, it is simply not true.

Dozer Blades wrote:Grounded =/= Flying

Pretty simply and nowhere does the rules state it occurs at the end of the shooting phase... Grasping at straws now.

I understand your view, it's common sense that once a FMC becomes grounded one would assume it is no longer swooping.

However, the rules clearly state that a Swooping FMC specifically loses its jink save and the immunity to assaults. That's it.

Common sense would also tell us that if they intended to remove all the effects of swooping, they would not have gone to the trouble of simply mentioning 2 out of 3. The overarching question remains: Why did they go to the trouble of stating exactly what a FMC loses when grounded, rather than simply saying "A FMC that is grounded is no longer Swooping"?

We can't answer that question and, as such, there will need to be a FAQ to clarify the issue, regardless of how 'clear' you may think the intention of the rule may be.

DoW

Dozer Blades wrote:You can't assault a swooping FMC - therefore its no longer swooping after failing a grounding test.

post hoc ergo proptor hoc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:No, I do not "want or not want it." I do not care either way as long as the rules are followed.

Please do not accuse me of having a motive when clearly there is none. I look at the rules with an Impartial eye, please do not make accusations to the contrary.

The rules may imply that it looses Swooping, but unless they actually say that the MC looses Swooping then it does not loose Swooping, and the rules that go with it.

agree.

And, it's just as easy to say some people "want the grounded FMC to be hit at regular BS"

Who cares what the motivation behind a post is anyway... just talk about the rules. Parse the text. We'll figure it out.

And how hard do the folks at GW *FACEDESK* when they see threads like this?

Our shop plays it how it will be FAQ'd... your flying dudebro hit the dirt and is waddling his rear around because he can be assaulted and he crashed into the ground.

A S9 hit is the same as getting Lascannon'd in the face, short of eating a railgun shot. Game is more 'cinematic' and what not. Follow the bouncing Daemon Prince just sounds completely out of place and context. Like all the other really poorly fought arguments in 6E, use some common sense.

If I just buried a two story tall thing into the battefield, the only reason it'd be harder to hit is because half of it is underground. I'll be curious to see how tournaments vet this one.

And I'm a Daemon player. If my flyer gets tagged, and is grounded, it's now easier to shoot. Them's the breaks.

So here's the deal.

When grounded:

Never does it say you are not swooping anymore.

No where ever does it say that you lose hard to hit. This means that you do not. Simple as that.

No where does it say you cannot be grounded more than once.

For those of you that make the argument of it not making sense to be grounded more than once, a friend of mine brought up a decent way of explaining it in a fluffy kind of way. You get hit by multiple shots by several squads, you fail to correct your flying and compinsate for the hits and the more times you are hit the hard you hit the ground. A decent fluffly was to describe it.

TheKbob wrote:And how hard do the folks at GW *FACEDESK* when they see threads like this?

My *facedesk* would be pretty hard if anyone from GW emerged from their ivory tower and actually read a useful discussion by tabletop gamers regarding a poorly written rule.

How is it that a few gamers, with no official rule-making training, can come to the conclusion that writing "The FMC is no longer considered swooping in all regards" would have been better than cherry picking two of the rules to mention and leaving other aspects up for debate?

Common sense is an excellent way to figure out what the rules are probably supposed to be saying, but there's absolutely no reason why the rules can't be written properly in the first place.

The way this rule is written, the FMC is technically still hard to hit and can still be grounded again. I'm sure someone could cook up a valid explanation for this within the bounds of the 40k universe but it's really not necessary. That's what the rules say, silly as it may be.

DoW