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DeathReaper wrote:"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn." P.49

Those are the only rules adjustments that the Grounded status adjusts.

Nowhere does it state that you are now Gliding, so you are still Swooping.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote: The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping?

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes Graph.

This details that they are Swooping until the start of their next turn.

Now, where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to be not a Swooping creature until the start of their next turn?

Those are not the rules for your mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, those are the rules of what it means to be a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. You even have the duration given of being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature in that quote, specifically allowing you to move normally the next turn.

You still cannot point to any reference or permission on Grounded to still be Swooping and continue to ignore that your whole argument is pointless in regard to Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the

RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Your point is point quite solid, but I do have a couple counter points.

1. There is nothing supporting the idea that you are no longer swooping other than the different name you're given. The two states of swooping and grounded have no mention of each other in either rule, as opposed to swooping and gliding. Nothing suggests that you can't be both. Since you must first be swooping to become grounded, and grounded does not specifically state that you are no longer swooping, you do not lose this state. You are not a swooping ground fmc and you suggest you would be. You are both a swooping fmc and a grounded fmc.

I have given reference.

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes graph.

This tells you how long you are in Swooping Flight mode.

This has a specific timeframe and nothing, short of the timeframe expiring, says you loose Swooping status.

Permission is needed to override the Swooping flight mode, and nothing in the Grounded rules say you are no longer swooping.

2. If in fact you are no longer swooping, why would they specifically state that 2 special rules that are part of swooping are removed, but omit others from the removal?

Sothas wrote:2. If in fact you are no longer swooping, why would they specifically state that 2 special rules that are part of swooping are removed, but omit others from the removal?

Because the Jink USR applies "until the start of the next movement phase", so removing the Swooping State would leave it in place (since it's triggered by Dive).

Testify wrote:

Sothas wrote:2. If in fact you are no longer swooping, why would they specifically state that 2 special rules that are part of swooping are removed, but omit others from the removal?

Because the Jink USR applies "until the start of the next movement phase", so removing the Swooping State would leave it in place (since it's triggered by Dive).

And the same logic applies to Swooping.

Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

DeathReaper wrote:
Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

Sothas wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the

RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Your point is point quite solid, but I do have a couple counter points.

1. There is nothing supporting the idea that you are no longer swooping other than the different name you're given. The two states of swooping and grounded have no mention of each other in either rule, as opposed to swooping and gliding. Nothing suggests that you can't be both. Since you must first be swooping to become grounded, and grounded does not specifically state that you are no longer swooping, you do not lose this state. You are not a swooping ground fmc and you suggest you would be. You are both a swooping fmc and a grounded fmc.

DeathReaper wrote:I have given reference.

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes graph.

This tells you how long you are in Swooping Flight mode.

This has a specific timeframe and nothing, short of the timeframe expiring, says you loose Swooping status.

Permission is needed to override the Swooping flight mode, and nothing in the Grounded rules say you are no longer swooping.

Since the answer relates to both of you,

Youare told to choose which flight mode until the next turn, Swooping in this case, and are then referred specifically to a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. This vernacular is then used exclusively tnroughout the special rules to describe what and what not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can and cannot do. The RAW is therefore,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Once you hit the rules for Grounded, you are specifically told that you become Grounded and from then on are referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature with rules specific to being Grounded. So therefore,

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now while you want to keep pointing to choosing a flight mode lasts until the next movement turn, you are given a specific set of circumstances that can occur whose result is then forcing you to change from being a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature (thus Swooping) and become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature (thus Grounded). The RAW is explicit in this change in the rules for Grounded with zero allowance given to remain Swooping or Gliding in any form.

The way the rules are written is not that you are either Swooping, Gliding, or Grounded. The rules are laid out explicitly that you are either Swooping or Gliding (until next turn), unless you are Grounded. That is why they specifically refer to a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and do not reference anywhere being a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature or any other imagined hybrid.

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

They do, they just don't use those exact words.

Exact words are needed in a permissive ruleset.

You are making assumptions to their thought process in writingthe rules. I'm not saying your assumption is wrong, I'm saying that it could be wrong and that your "facts" about "raw" are just assumptions. The RAW never removes swooping it just adds additional rules that happen to remove some other rules.

OK. Good job. You both make valid argument. Now lets all agree to disagree, and maybe when GW finally gets around to releasing a rulebook FAQ (sometime next year probably), we can all go back to arguing because it is not answered.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

And the "crashing down to the ground" part of that line is fluff since it does not define anything that is truly definable in the game without using speculative interpretation.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

Then keep reading the rule where it tells you that you become Grounded and are then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Per the RAW,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now where in the rules for Grounded are you given allowance to remain Swooping?

Just to note, it has been more then a few posts that every single person for a imagined Swooping/Grounded hybrid has not been able to address that their argument is pointless when it comes to Hard to Hit.

If failing a grounding test removes swooping and its benefits, why did they need to spell out "and may be assaulted"?

The only thing preventing a FMC from being assaulted is swooping status. They went out of their way to remove 2 of the 3 benefits of swooping specifically, but never specifically said "no longer swooping" or "no longer hard to hit".

If they intended Grounding to override Swooping fully and completely, there were many opportunities to do it with much clearer wording. Something like "unless grounded, a FMC is hard to hit". Or "a grounded FMC loses swooping status and all benefits from".

The "and can be assaulted" statement implies to me "...despite retaining swooping status".

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

Then keep reading the rule where it tells you that you become Grounded and are then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Per the RAW,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now where in the rules for Grounded are you given allowance to remain Swooping?

Just to note, it has been more then a few posts that every single person for a imagined Swooping/Grounded hybrid has not been able to address that their argument is pointless when it comes to Hard to Hit.

Except you've seemly ignored what I've said. You are correct that when grounded you are a grounded fmc. And when swooping you are a swooping fmc. But never in and sentence, paragraph, or phrasing of any time on any page of any book or fAQ does it say that you cannot be both. You say that it has to say you keep it when in fact this is backwards. The state the fmc is in is swooping and thus the rules must say you are no longer swooping. It is that simple grounded does not state it removes swooping and therefore does not.

hyv3mynd wrote:If failing a grounding test removes swooping and its benefits, why did they need to spell out "and may be assaulted"?

The only thing preventing a FMC from being assaulted is swooping status. They went out of their way to remove 2 of the 3 benefits of swooping specifically, but never specifically said "no longer swooping" or "no longer hard to hit".

If they intended Grounding to override Swooping fully and completely, there were many opportunities to do it with much clearer wording. Something like "unless grounded, a FMC is hard to hit". Or "a grounded FMC loses swooping status and all benefits from".

The "and can be assaulted" statement implies to me "...despite retaining swooping status".

You have formed a conclusion and are searching for proof which isn't how it works.

The rule allowing you to assault and losing a Jink save (if it had it) are not rules for an imagined Swooping/Ground hybrid. They are the rules for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, that is it. That is the RAW. You do not need to be specifically told that you are not Swooping when the rule specifically tells you that you are no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, which is does in Grounded. You cannot be Swooping if you are no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Sothas wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

Then keep reading the rule where it tells you that you become Grounded and are then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Per the RAW,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now where in the rules for Grounded are you given allowance to remain Swooping?

Just to note, it has been more then a few posts that every single person for a imagined Swooping/Grounded hybrid has not been able to address that their argument is pointless when it comes to Hard to Hit.

Except you've seemly ignored what I've said. You are correct that when grounded you are a grounded fmc. And when swooping you are a swooping fmc. But never in and sentence, paragraph, or phrasing of any time on any page of any book or fAQ does it say that you cannot be both. You say that it has to say you keep it when in fact this is backwards. The state the fmc is in is swooping and thus the rules must say you are no longer swooping. It is that simple grounded does not state it removes swooping and therefore does not.

Dingdingdingdingding!! We have a winner!!

Permissive ruleset, ie, you have absolutely zero permission to be both. You are either a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you have zero permission to be both or a hybrid of both.

Thanks for killing your own argument.

No. Lol. Your argument for this is backwards. You're already swooping. Grounding never states swooping is removed, thus it is not. My mind is literally boggled on how you have turned this so backwards.

Sothas wrote:No. Lol. Your argument for this is backwards. You're already swooping. Grounding never states swooping is removed, thus it is not. My mind is literally boggled on how you have turned this so backwards.

You are Swooping, thus a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. The RAW tell you that you BECOME Grounded, thus a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

Now where in Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you see the word Swooping? Where in the entire rules for Grounded do you even see the word, Swooping?

You want to try and imply that Swooping is still present yet the RAW does not support a Swooping/Grounded hybrid, the RAW does not contain a single reference to Swooping in the Grounded rules, and lastly the rules for Grounded go specifically go out of their way to change you from a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature with its own set of rules for being Grounded and the specific permission as to when you can go back to being either Swooping or Gliding.

You have zero RAW to back up your premise.

That is my point. It never says swooping. You don't lose swooping and you don't lose hard to hit. The only time in the whole book that it says you are not swooping is when you choose to glide in the movement phase. The permissive rule argument that you are giving is backwards. You are swooping and need permission to not be swooping. The fmc is grounded it applies the ground rule. This rule never says that the fmc is no longer swooping and therefore is still subject to ALL swooping rules. Additionally, it says certain rules that swooping applies are removed by the grounded rule, but these are specific rules granted by swooping but not swooping its self. Therefore swooping is never removed and still applies all if its rules with the exception of those specifically mentioned in the grounded rule

The way I read it, there are two states FMC can be in, gliding and swooping. Being grounded in almost like a subset of swooping. You are a grounded swooping FMC so you loose XYZ.

If the rules said you become grounded and loose swooping that would be something else entirely.

Swooping and Gliding are mutually exclusive, the rules say you are one or the other. Swooping and grounded are never said to be mutually exclusive.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

If you are interpreting the rule you are, by definition, moving beyond the RAW and into your own, personal interpretation. That's fine if the RAW breaks the game, but if the RAW is clear and does not violate any other rules then you must assume it is valid until a FAQ or Errata comes out to correct it.

Long story short, no matter what people *think* or *interpret* as what "grounded" means, it means exactly as it says in the book and nothing more.

Those who are arguing that a FMC is still Hard to Hit are not "grasping at straws", it is quite the opposite. The ones who are saying it loses that benefit are the ones who have no basis in the rules whatsoever. I personally think it makes much more sense for a Swooping FMC that becomes Grounded to no longer be considered Swooping. The rules do not say that so we must wait for a FAQ for this to be true.

DoW

This is really obvious and only one way really makes sense taking all related rules into consideration.

Can a bird, plane or parachuting human swoop or glide after it has come crashing to the ground and is grounded? No.

Hard to Hit doesn't do anything if you are shooting with Skyfire. If you are Grounded, must you be shot with Skyfire? No.

If your Grounded model was still swooping or gliding it could Dive again, however grounded models only regain Jink "if it Dives later in the game". This assumes you've lost the benefits of swooping by bring grounded. I.E. >>> it doesn't actually state you can't Dive after being grounded.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW ignores this one altogether and does not FAQ it. There's Flying (swooping, gliding, soaring, floating) and there's Grounded. They are opposites. Ask a child. Literally ask a child and it will be so painfully obviously why GW doesn't explain this. I don't mean that to be rude. It would be insulting for GW to explain that something that is Grounded is no longer flying as if we don't understand this simple concept.

=====

Hello again DakkaDakka! Here I am back after getting a feel for the 6th rules. Nice to see lots of familiar names still here.

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

If you are interpreting the rule you are, by definition, moving beyond the RAW and into your own, personal interpretation. That's fine if the RAW breaks the game, but if the RAW is clear and does not violate any other rules then you must assume it is valid until a FAQ or Errata comes out to correct it.

Long story short, no matter what people *think* or *interpret* as what "grounded" means, it means exactly as it says in the book and nothing more.

Those who are arguing that a FMC is still Hard to Hit are not "grasping at straws", it is quite the opposite. The ones who are saying it loses that benefit are the ones who have no basis in the rules whatsoever. I personally think it makes much more sense for a Swooping FMC that becomes Grounded to no longer be considered Swooping. The rules do not say that so we must wait for a FAQ for this to be true.

DoW

You completely fail at RAW.

Hard to Hit:

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42). Template, Blast, and Large Blast Weapons cannot hit Swooping models.

Grounded Tests:
<snip>
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn.

To fulfill the requirements of Hard to Hit, you must be a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, nothing more, nothing less. When Grounded, you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. By all means, try and weasel your way out of this one which I have been pressing many others to try and address this whole time. Even if you take the stance of Deathreaper and fall on the, "nothing says I can't be both types, so I can" argument fallacy, Hard to Hit only allows you to be one, not the imaginary hybrid.

Nemesor Dave wrote:A bunch of stuff

Ad hominem attacks aside, you haven't really added anything new to the discussion. People have been beating the 'interpretation' argument to death for 4 pages now.

Attributing common sense to a 40k rules discussion isn't usually very useful. It's an abstraction of a fictional universe — common sense isn't really part of the equation.

Ask a child how many inches an 8 foot tall armored killing machine should move in a single turn? Or how about psychic and daemonic powers? It's just silly.

If you can show us a rule that states how a FMC cannot be swooping AND grounded at the same time —within the confines of the rules and not attributing 'common sense'— then I would gladly agree with you and change my viewpoint.

DoW

So those who say that a Grounded FMC is different from a Swooping FMC are basically saying that the grounded rule is just extra text GW decided they needed to add?

If they are truly different things then why say it loses jink and can be assaulted as neither of these things are something the Grounded FMC had in the first place. Why remove a rule from a model that it does not have?

I think this mat become the next overflow thread.

If I walked to my local airstrip and asked a friend if a pilot was flying today, and he replied "he is grounded", I would be seen as an epic moron if I asked "so is he still flying?".

Why? Because we all know grounded =\= flying (or gliding, or swooping). It would be as silly to demand of GW that they define stopped as meaning "not moving". We know what the word means and the designers expect us to use solid definitions in rule interpretation.

DogOfWar wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:A bunch of stuff

Ad hominem attacks aside, you haven't really added anything new to the discussion. People have been beating the 'interpretation' argument to death for 4 pages now.

Attributing common sense to a 40k rules discussion isn't usually very useful. It's an abstraction of a fictional universe — common sense isn't really part of the equation.

Ask a child how many inches an 8 foot tall armored killing machine should move in a single turn? Or how about psychic and daemonic powers? It's just silly.

If you can show us a rule that states how a FMC cannot be swooping AND grounded at the same time —within the confines of the rules and not attributing 'common sense'— then I would gladly agree with you and change my viewpoint.

DoW

Show me where after a flyer that "Crash and Burn's" and it is destroyed - where the BRB says the flyer is not allowed to come back on the board. But indeed apparently this rule comes into effect:

"It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave
the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens,
the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters
Ongoing Reserves (see page 125)."

In fact, you interpret the rules all the time. It is quite RAW. Here it is, and I quote. "Grounded". Grounded means not flying. Swooping is flying and so is gliding. I'm sure if you asked the authors of the BRB they would tell you the same thing.

Now you seem to have no problem interpreting the former, and yet have trouble with the latter. For that I have no explanation.

Here is my take on the situation. First lets look up the definition of the word swooping since the only thing that keeps the arguement that swooping is taken away is RAI:

Swooping:
1. The act of sweeping through the air, as a bird or a bat, especially down upon prey.
2. The act of coming down upon something in a sudden, swift attack.

I can see this as interpreted realistically in two ways that could still allow the monstrous creature to still be "swooping" by literal definition.

A. The creature's wing gets shot by the bullet, and it starts plummeting towards the ground. Considering flyers are suppose to be at flying altitude, the thing is falling out of the sky while everyone else on the field continues to shoot at it's falling body. SLAM! It hits the ground and takes it's Str 9 hit, now the shooting phase is over. Since it has just hit the ground, someone could nearby jump on the split second before the creature takes off again to assault it.

B. The creature's wing gets shot by the bullet, and it plummets to the ground. SLAM! It his the ground and take's it's Str 9 hit, than gets up from just hitting the ground and getting hurt. He is still a creature with wings, and while he is not at flying altitude he gusts his wings and flies evasive maneuvers just above the ground with his wings. You can imagine this by any bird you've seen eating seed off the ground or hunting a small critter. They "jump" around at incredibly fast speeds, land, and take off again. There is nothing stopping the MC from doing this, and as such still being incredibly hard to hit. However, since it would take the monstrous creature a bit to gain his altitude again he is now vulnerable to someone running up, jumping on him, and assaulting him.

Both of these are reasonable understandings of what is going on with a "swooping" creature that has been grounded. Both of them can, RAI and logically, support keeping hard to hit when being grounded from a shot. RAW means that you keep Hard to Hit, and while you can purpose scenarios that would mean you aren't flying anymore I simply was able to purpose a scenario where you were still flying just not in the traditional "maintaining flight" sense. Since RAW and logic can come to the same conclusion on this issue, I learn towards keeping Hard to Hit.