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Lobukia wrote:I think this mat become the next overflow thread.

If I walked to my local airstrip and asked a friend if a pilot was flying today, and he replied "he is grounded", I would be seen as an epic moron if I asked "so is he still flying?".

Why? Because we all know grounded =\= flying (or gliding, or swooping). It would be as silly to demand of GW that they define stopped as meaning "not moving". We know what the word means and the designers expect us to use solid definitions in rule interpretation.

I would agree with you completely if they had said a FMC that fails a grounding test is grounded and left it at that, but since they went so far as to remove certain rules specifically but not others, we have to assume they had planned it this way and specifically pointing out one rule but not another forces us to keep the rule unless it is specifically removed.

You are using the logical real world application of the word "grounded" and trying to apply it to rules which just isn't the case.

DogOfWar wrote:If you are interpreting the rule you are, by definition, moving beyond the RAW and into your own, personal interpretation. That's fine if the RAW breaks the game, but if the RAW is clear and does not violate any other rules then you must assume it is valid until a FAQ or Errata comes out to correct it.

Long story short, no matter what people *think* or *interpret* as what "grounded" means, it means exactly as it says in the book and nothing more.

Those who are arguing that a FMC is still Hard to Hit are not "grasping at straws", it is quite the opposite. The ones who are saying it loses that benefit are the ones who have no basis in the rules whatsoever. I personally think it makes much more sense for a Swooping FMC that becomes Grounded to no longer be considered Swooping. The rules do not say that so we must wait for a FAQ for this to be true.

DoW

in·ter·pret/inˈtərprit/
Verb:
Explain the meaning of (information, words, or actions): "interpret the evidence".

You seem to be confusing the word "interpret" with the word "infer".
Everyone interprets the rules. When you interpret them, you are assuming that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Swoop mode - this is in spite of any evidence whatsoever in the book.
The rulebook implicitly states that the FMC is a Grounded FMC. For some reason, you seem to think that this stacks with Swoop, when nothing in the rulebook says anything of the sort.
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please. This is a discussion about what's written in the book, nothing more.

English definition of the name of a rule does not, can not, and will not ever change what the rules say unless otherwise stated to be so.

Fluff != rules (except with plasma syphon where the rules specifically state fluff = rules).

The fluff part is that it comes crashing to the ground and the rules part is "and becomes grounded" because we have a definition of the term "grounded". We can not assume anything about the rule as it was written. To start making assumptions on one rule and calling that assumption the rule will end up breaking the game.

Here's a great example of RAI failing... Eldar Shadowseer, Veil of Tears.

The FAQ replaces the second and third sentences with the ability to gain shround and stealth. However, it is quite obvious that the intent was to make it the second and third sentences of the second paragraph. Because of this failure in the FAQ, the eldar shadowseer now requires you to roll to spot AND gives the squad stealth and shroud. The RAW is just that, and must be followed, even if it is plainly obvious RAI is something different.

In this case, it is NOT plainly obvious what RAI is, because it is entirely possible they intended for the FMC to just hit the ground harder after taking multiple hits (multiple grounding rolls). Perhaps the FMC is on it's way down (still flying so has hard to hit) but cannot manouver anymore because it's falling (no more jink). There are several ways to interpret the RAI. Here, the RAW is clearly defined. RAI cannot be used in 99.9% of situations withs rules because we cannot actually KNOW what the intent was on a rule, we can only speculate. Because of this we must adhere to the exact letter of the law which we call RAW. And RAW swooping is NOT removed from the model. It ONLY gains grounded and does not specify if swooping stays or goes. Since the model MUST be swooping, and grounded DOES NOT remove swooping then swooping IS NOT removed.

I don't know how else to spell this out.


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Testify wrote: you are assuming that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Swoop mode - this is in spite of any evidence whatsoever in the book.
The rulebook implicitly states that the FMC is a Grounded FMC. For some reason, you seem to think that this stacks with Swoop, when nothing in the rulebook says anything of the sort.
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please. This is a discussion about what's written in the book, nothing more.

There is no assumption. The rules for swooping SPECIFICALLY and without any doubt tell us that swooping remains in effect until your next movement phase. By this, and by the fact that everyone agrees the rules are permisive, in order to end swooping the rules must SPECIFICALLY state that the FMC stops swooping. You are using permisive rules backwards when saying that it says it has to stay. In fact IT DOES state swooping stays until your next movement phase. It says that. We all agree. So RAW says the FMC is swooping until your next movement phase. Swooping stays. Do I need to say that again? Ok I won't. Now we move on.

A permisive ruleset means two things.

1. In order for the unit/model/what have you, to be granted an ability or have the ability to do something, it has to say specifically that it can do that thing and it does get that thing.

2. In order for a granted ability, condition, modifier, ect... to be removed it must specifically state that ability is removed.

With this in mind. Please show me in the book where ANYTHING (at this point I don't care what it is) other than starting your next movement phase, states that swooping is removed, the FMC is no longer swooping, or some varient of the word swooping coupled with the negation of it. Simply calling it something else DOES NOT remove something else it already is without saying that it is removed with the exact wording.

If the FMC was still in the flight mode after being grounded the rules would say so. They don't so it doesn't work that way and it's just that simple.

Dozer Blades wrote:If the FMC was still in the flight mode after being grounded the rules would say so. They don't so it doesn't work that way and it's just that simple.

Backwards logic


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I'm swooping but then I shoot my gun, I'm now shooting. I'm not swooping anymore because it doesn't say that I am.

^Your logic.

Here's some other interesting info on the actual format of the page (49).

Flying Monstrous Creatures is the page title in the largest font.

The next largest font is for 5 subtitles:
Flight Modes
Deployment
Gliding
Swooping
Special Rules

The third largest font is for 6 subtitles of the above subtitles:
Changing Flight Mode
Swooping Hunters
Hard to Hit
Leaving Combat Airspace
Dive
Grounded Tests*

The term "Grounded Monstrous Creature" doesn't appear until the last paragraph of the third smallest (6th) subtitle.

Since it did not receive equal billing to the "Gliding", "Swooping", or "Special Rules" subtitles, we can infer that its state does not cancel out gliding or swooping, or create a third state.

Since "grounded monstrous creature" doesn't occur until the 5th subtitle under the LARGER "swooping" title, we can infer that the "grounded monstrous creature" is a modifier of "swooping monstrous creature", and does not replace it or become mutually exclusive.

Since "a grounded monstrous creature can be charged in the following assault phase and loses the jink special rule" does not remove or replace swooping status or the hard to hit special rule as they specifically noted which benefits it did lose.

I do agree the wording is the worst thing ever. Right up there with "emplaced weapons" being TOTALLY DIFFERENT from "weapon emplacements".

Verbage aside, I think the formatting of the page as a whole indicates grounded is a modified state of swooping that removes two specifically mentioned benefits, but not all of them.

Testify wrote:
Everyone interprets the rules. When you interpret them, you are assuming that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Swoop mode - this is in spite of any evidence whatsoever in the book.
The rulebook implicitly states that the FMC is a Grounded FMC. For some reason, you seem to think that this stacks with Swoop, when nothing in the rulebook says anything of the sort.
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please. This is a discussion about what's written in the book, nothing more.

1) Grounded is very specifically described. It does not replace, nor remove Swooping. In fact, GW went as far as to explicitly mention the two parts of Swooping that are negated. (I would rather go with what the rules explicitly say, rather than what you can implicitly make up.)

2) You do not need to 'retain' Swoop. You must either choose to Glide, or have it be removed from your model via another means. The rules for Grounding do not remove the rules for Swooping, merely a subset thereof.

3) Stacking has nothing to do with it. Does Fearless say it stacks with Fleet? If a model becomes Pinned, do they lose Feel no Pain?

4) What are you talking about with regards to common sense? Did you actually read my post? I very clearly stated that common sense is NOT welcome in a discussion of RAW as it has no basis in the rules. Were you intending to respond to someone else perhaps?

For those saying —or implying, since evidently we have an English professor present— "Errmagerrd I would never play you!" Keep in mind, HYWPI is NOT the same as RAW. This is a RAW discussion.

DoW

I played a game versus Tyranids with double Flyrant today. My opponent did not even know about this shennigan and I told him to go ahead and use even though he said it felt really dirty. Turn 2 I shot them both down and off the table - its really not all that great for Nidz in my opinion. It is broken for Tzneetch flying circus though. We both agreed we won't tell anyone else in our local gaming circles.

I am thinking GW will FAQ this one. Should be very interesting if they do.

Despite all the blustering of RAW this and RAW that, not a single one of you has shown any RAW to support your imaginary hybrid of a Swooping and Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

1. Show me the permission to first create a hybrid. DeathReaper outed himself when he said he could not find anywhere that did not allow a FMC to be both, so he could, which flies right in the face of a permissive rule set.

2. Show me the rules and directions to then use said hybrid. There is absolutely no mention of a hybrid Swooping/Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature anywhere, so please direct me that entry.

3. Show me how said hybrid is allowed to fulfill the requirement of Hard to Hit.

As much as people want to point to the first paragraph telling you that a flight mode lasts until the end of the turn, it is specifically countered by the last sentence of Grounded which tells you that you will be able to move normally on its next turn. That alone crushes that argument without even needing to point out that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES a Grounded Monstrous Creature (notice the distinct lack of Swooping).

And for the lastl damn time, losing a Jink save (if it had one) and being able to be assaulted are NOT the rules for a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature that has been Grounded!! They are specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is titled under the rule of Grounded Tests and the beginning of the damn sentece even says,

"A GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it)."

If you keep insisting otherwise, there is no other way of putting it, but you are lying. The RAW is directly contradicting you and yet you are insisting that you are right.


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Holy crapola, I was just going over the Grounded Tests rules again and yet another wrench gets tossed into the creation of an imaginary hybrid!

I stand corrected, Swooping is mentioned in the Grounded Tests section. It is used in the very first sentence of the rule when it clarifies what happens if a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a Shooting attack. It takes a Grounded test.

Now when it fails, that is specifically when the RAW tells you that it becomes Grounded and from then on refers it to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. For those of you keeping track, that is when you lose Swooping.

You started as a FMC that is Swooping, you suffered hits from a Shooting attack, and you became a GFMC. Notice the distinct lack of, ".....that is Swooping" that was present prior to suffering hits from a shooting attack and failing a Grounded test. It was right there, post failed Grounded test it is gone.

Coffin meet the multitude of other nails on this thread.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Despite all the blustering of RAW this and RAW that, not a single one of you has shown any RAW to support your imaginary hybrid of a Swooping and Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

1. Show me the permission to first create a hybrid. DeathReaper outed himself when he said he could not find anywhere that did not allow a FMC to be both, so he could, which flies right in the face of a permissive rule set.

2. Show me the rules and directions to then use said hybrid. There is absolutely no mention of a hybrid Swooping/Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature anywhere, so please direct me that entry.

3. Show me how said hybrid is allowed to fulfill the requirement of Hard to Hit.

As much as people want to point to the first paragraph telling you that a flight mode lasts until the end of the turn, it is specifically countered by the last sentence of Grounded which tells you that you will be able to move normally on its next turn. That alone crushes that argument without even needing to point out that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES a Grounded Monstrous Creature (notice the distinct lack of Swooping).

And for the lastl damn time, losing a Jink save (if it had one) and being able to be assaulted are NOT the rules for a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature that has been Grounded!! They are specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is titled under the rule of Grounded Tests and the beginning of the damn sentece even says,

"A GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it)."

If you keep insisting otherwise, there is no other way of putting it, but you are lying. The RAW is directly contradicting you and yet you are insisting that you are right.

Another thing missing from this discussion is losing the ability to Dive.

If the FMC still is Swooping, then it can still Dive and gains jink back???

So your Flying Monsterous Creature is flying 100 meters in the sky, minding his own business when he gets shot out of the sky. "The beast comes
crashing down to the ground and is Grounded". Now he's so low he can get hit in close combat and can't jink out of the way of additional shots. But I'm supposed to believe he's still swooping and can Dive (perhaps underground?) and gain the Jink special rule if he is shot at again.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Despite all the blustering of RAW this and RAW that, not a single one of you has shown any RAW to support your imaginary hybrid of a Swooping and Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

1. Show me the permission to first create a hybrid. DeathReaper outed himself when he said he could not find anywhere that did not allow a FMC to be both, so he could, which flies right in the face of a permissive rule set.

I did not say that did i?

Tell me, what Flight Mode has a Grounded MC that moved 24 inches used in his movement phase Gliding or Swooping?

after you answer, when do the rules state that the movement mode ends?

2. Show me the rules and directions to then use said hybrid. There is absolutely no mention of a hybrid Swooping/Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature anywhere, so please direct me that entry.

Swooping is a Flight Mode. Grounded is not, your question is moot.

3. Show me how said hybrid is allowed to fulfill the requirement of Hard to Hit.

Again Moot.

As much as people want to point to the first paragraph telling you that a flight mode lasts until the end of the turn, it is specifically countered by the last sentence of Grounded which tells you that you will be able to move normally on its next turn. That alone crushes that argument without even needing to point out that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES a Grounded Monstrous Creature (notice the distinct lack of Swooping).

It does not say it Loses Swooping it says it becomes grounded, Grounded is not a movement mode, so it is either Swooping or Gliding until its next turn. the part about moving normally notes that you are not stuck in Swooping mode,

I was just going over the Grounded Tests rules again and yet another wrench gets tossed into the creation of an imaginary hybrid!

I stand corrected, Swooping is mentioned in the Grounded Tests section. It is used in the very first sentence of the rule when it clarifies what happens if a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a Shooting attack. It takes a Grounded test.

Now when it fails, that is specifically when the RAW tells you that it becomes Grounded and from then on refers it to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. For those of you keeping track, that is when you lose Swooping

It does not say it loses Swooping in the graph you mention.


In all reality it will probably be FAQed to no longer be swooping, and I will probably play it whatever way my opponent wants too, as there are benefits and drawbacks of both flight modes.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:"A GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it)."

If you keep insisting otherwise, there is no other way of putting it, but you are lying. The RAW is directly contradicting you and yet you are insisting that you are right.

I think you need to calm down. No one is 'lying' here. You are simply mistaken in your interpretation of the rules.

You only need to prove one thing. Namely that Swooping ends, is replaced, or the granted effects are removed upon Grounding. You have quoted the text that clearly shows a Swooping FMC that has been Grounded loses the immunity to assault AND loses the Jink rule. No-one is arguing that fact.

Please show me which page it says that A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature also loses Hard to Hit or that it is no longer Swooping. If you cannot, then you are not basing your argument on RAW at all. It really is as simple as that.

We have presented our case and you have not refuted it with any actual rules. Sorry but there isn't really an argument here if you don't have any new evidence to bring to light.

If it makes it easier to see our point of view, imagine a unit with Feel no Pain is forced to take a Pinning test, fails, and Goes to Ground. I argue that they should lose Feel no Pain as a result of Going to Ground. Prove me wrong.

DoW

My head is getting dizzy from reading this.

When I first read the rules, I was of the camp that once grounded, you lose hard to hit. But, after further reading and comments on YMDC, I have conceded that, as the way the rules are written now, if you fail a grounding test, you still remain hard to hit and must continue to take grounding tests.

Yes. This flies in the face of common sense, but this are GW rules we are talking about. Not actual physics, reality, or anything else.

What completely convinced me that you remain hard to hit is when GW explicitly removed the jink save and allowed a grounded FMC to be assaulted. This seems pretty intentional (or complete incompetence by GW rules writers) that some of the perks of swooping remained. As has been stated numerous times, why did GW specifically remove certain abilities but not others? If the FMC's status changed completely, the rules could have been written such as:

a. The monster comes crashing to the ground. Treat the FMC as gliding until its next movement phase where it may choose to move normally.

b. The monster comes crashing to the ground. Treat as a regular monstrous creature for the remainder of this turn.

Again, when I run or play against FMCs, I clarify up front how they want to play it. (much like deffrollas and vehicles before GW FAQ'd it). I could care less which way it is played as long as it is consistent throughout the game. Everyone I have played against treats a Grounded FMC as gliding (i.e. hit as normal, can be assaulted, etc.). If they wanted to retain hard to hit, that is fine. But then they are going to continue to take grounding tests as well.

You can stop arguing now, it just goes round in circles and everyone is set in his way until the FAQ comes out.

For what it's worth my two cent: I only play Tyranids, and in my eyes it's obvious that GW meant that a Grounded MC lose Swooping and Hard to Hit until its next movement phase. They just failed to mention it explicitly.

When you are sitting on your @ss you aren't soaring through the sky.

Do I feel it's a kick against Tyranids, unwarranted and unbalanced? Yes. Fliers never lose Hard to Hit, and it makes no sense a FMC would crash to the ground by mere hits, bouncing harmlessly from their carapace, or even searchlights 'OMG A FLASHLIGHT HIT ME IN THE BACK, AAAAHHH I'M GOING DOOOWN!'

The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Green is Best! wrote:
When I first read the rules, I was of the camp that once grounded, you lose hard to hit. But, after further reading and comments on YMDC, I have conceded that, as the way the rules are written now, if you fail a grounding test, you still remain hard to hit and must continue to take grounding tests.

You don't. You've already assumed that GW have written the rules wrong and that's clouding your judgement.
Read the paragraphs about Grounded again.


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N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Testify wrote:


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N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:


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N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

Because Fateweaver/LOCs would become truely invincable. At least now if you shower them with lasguns or bolt pistols, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll come down. But if you have to cause an unsaved wound you're looking at 6s to hit, wounding Toughness6, then a re-rollable 3++ invulnerable save .

Testify wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:


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N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

Because Fateweaver/LOCs would become truely invincable. At least now if you shower them with lasguns or bolt pistols, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll come down. But if you have to cause an unsaved wound you're looking at 6s to hit, wounding Toughness6, then a re-rollable 3++ invulnerable save .

Point taken. I was looking from only a tyranid perspective - no re-rollable 3++ saves for us. :( Best we can do is 3+ armor followed by 5+ feel no pain.

Testify wrote:You don't. You've already assumed that GW have written the rules wrong and that's clouding your judgement.
Read the paragraphs about Grounded again.

I have read the rules and, while I disagree with them, concede that AS WRITTEN, that if I am swooping and fail a grounding test, I lose my jink save, can be assaulted, and take a STR 9 hit with no armor save. I see nothing that removes hard to hit. Nothing (despite the fact I do indeed play it this way, nothing removes hard to hit). And, as they went out of their way to make it this way, I have to assume that a Grounded FMC is still hard to hit and continues to take grounding tests. Show me anything in the brb that states otherwise. As I read it, Swooping gives you X, Y, and Z. If you fail a grounding test, it removes Y & Z, so I have to assume X still applies.

The follow up question is, can a FMC that is locked in assault declare itself swooping on its following movement phase? This would immediately remove it from CC (as swooping FMCs cannot be assaulted) and allow it to fly away.

Green is Best! wrote:The follow up question is, can a FMC that is locked in assault declare itself swooping on its following movement phase? This would immediately remove it from CC (as swooping FMCs cannot be assaulted) and allow it to fly away.

Being assaulted and being locked in combat are two different things, there is no permission (again that word) for it to ignore being locked in combat.

Green is Best! wrote:

Testify wrote:You don't. You've already assumed that GW have written the rules wrong and that's clouding your judgement.
Read the paragraphs about Grounded again.

I have read the rules and, while I disagree with them, concede that AS WRITTEN, that if I am swooping and fail a grounding test, I lose my jink save, can be assaulted, and take a STR 9 hit with no armor save. I see nothing that removes hard to hit. Nothing (despite the fact I do indeed play it this way, nothing removes hard to hit). And, as they went out of their way to make it this way, I have to assume that a Grounded FMC is still hard to hit and continues to take grounding tests. Show me anything in the brb that states otherwise. As I read it, Swooping gives you X, Y, and Z. If you fail a grounding test, it removes Y & Z, so I have to assume X still applies.

As long as you accept that you are inferring from the rules that you retain Hard To Hit - there is no RAW basis for it.

I am not inferring anything.
The rules state you declare yourself swooping or gliding. If you are swooping, you are hard to hit.
If you fail a grounding test, you become grounded and lose some of the perks of swooping.
At no point does it ever say you lose hard to hit.

It does not sound right, but that is the way the rule is written.


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HoverBoy wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:The follow up question is, can a FMC that is locked in assault declare itself swooping on its following movement phase? This would immediately remove it from CC (as swooping FMCs cannot be assaulted) and allow it to fly away.

Being assaulted and being locked in combat are two different things, there is no permission (again that word) for it to ignore being locked in combat.

OK, but by the book, I could do the following if locked in combat:

Declare myself swooping.
I am locked in combat, therefore I cannot move 18".
Since I am swooping and cannot move 18", (can't remember if its removed or take a wound).

Not saying this is a great idea, but if I had a 1 wound FMC locked in combat, I could conceivably kill it in order to be able to shoot at the no longer locked in combat squad, could I not?

Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

Green is Best! wrote:I am not inferring anything.
The rules state you declare yourself swooping or gliding. If you are swooping, you are hard to hit.

At the start of your movement, yes.

Green is Best! wrote:
If you fail a grounding test, you become grounded and lose some of the perks of swooping.
At no point does it ever say you lose hard to hit.

It does because a Grounded Monstrous Flying Creature is not a Swooping Monstrous Flying Creature.
Take the deamon ability that transforms a model into a chaos spawn. The rules don't need to clarify that the unit in question is no longer a jump infantry, or no longer has a power weapon, because the new rules over-ride the old. You can't be two contradictory things, you have to be the most recent.

Bottom line is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. To suggest that it IS requires an inference.


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hyv3mynd wrote:Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

You're seriously suggesting interpriting rules by font size?
The "A grounded monstrous creature is still swooping" crowd is really scraping the barrel now

hyv3mynd wrote:Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

It is because your post means absolutely nothing.

And again, despite what DogofWar thinks, the rules listed under Grounded are for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, period! You people keep saying it is for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, but that is NOT what the rule says. The RAW 100% clearly says a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and then gives you two rules specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

I have asked where you get permission to create a hybrid FMC. I have asked where the rules and direction are for a hybrid FMC. I have asked how do you apply Hard to Hit to Hit to a hybrid FMC. Not a single person has been able to reference a single rules reference in answer.

DeathReaper tries to play it off that he didn't pull a, "the rules don't say I can't, so I can", yet I quoted and emboldened where he did exactly that. DogofWar tries to say that it isn't lying when the rules specifically apply to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and people insist that they are rules for a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature (a term that is pure player creation). The truth is that an imaginary Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is either Gliding or Swooping is nothing but an made up hybrid to justify an argument. Despite it not be referenced ANYWHERE, for some insane reason people are giving it a set of rules and direction under the headings of GW defined terms.

It is useless putting forth a RAW based argument when the opposition will merely just make up rules to support their side and when pressed for RAW support, they ho hum the need for proof. I feel sorry for the fact that GW has to FAQ such an issue. At some point in time, I am sure GW felt the player base was more capable then what is presented here.

I am out.

Testify wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:I am not inferring anything.
The rules state you declare yourself swooping or gliding. If you are swooping, you are hard to hit.

At the start of your movement, yes.

Green is Best! wrote:
If you fail a grounding test, you become grounded and lose some of the perks of swooping.
At no point does it ever say you lose hard to hit.

It does because a Grounded Monstrous Flying Creature is not a Swooping Monstrous Flying Creature.
Take the deamon ability that transforms a model into a chaos spawn. The rules don't need to clarify that the unit in question is no longer a jump infantry, or no longer has a power weapon, because the new rules over-ride the old. You can't be two contradictory things, you have to be the most recent.

Bottom line is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. To suggest that it IS requires an inference.


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hyv3mynd wrote:Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

You're seriously suggesting interpriting rules by font size?
The "A grounded monstrous creature is still swooping" crowd is really scraping the barrel now

Yes I seriously am. Because grounded monstrous creature is mentionedin the last paragraph of the swooping section. Swooping and gliding are mutually explusive and each have their own section on page 49. If grounded was a mutually exclusive state to swooping, it would have received its own section with a title the same size as swooping and gliding. The placement of grounding rules under the swooping section denote it as a modifier, not an independent state.

hyv3mynd wrote:
denote it as a modifier, not an independent state.

Source? Where does it say this in the rulebook.

It doesn't, you're inferring it.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:And again, despite what DogofWar thinks, the rules listed under Grounded are for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, period! You people keep saying it is for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, but that is NOT what the rule says. The RAW 100% clearly says a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and then gives you two rules specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

I have asked where you get permission to create a hybrid FMC. I have asked where the rules and direction are for a hybrid FMC. I have asked how do you apply Hard to Hit to Hit to a hybrid FMC. Not a single person has been able to reference a single rules reference in answer.

Page 49, Right Column, Grounded test heading, 3rd Paragraph tells us that there is such a thing as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

Let me Quote it for you: "If a [Number] is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength [Number] hit with no arrnour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule..."

See the underlinded? it tells us that a MC that fails its roll becomes grounded, and is now a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature"

Did you not read that part?

It Still is a FMC, it still has used Swooping for its movement mode, and nothing takes away the Hard to Hit rule.

This is what the RAW say.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:It is useless putting forth a RAW based argument when the opposition will merely just make up rules to support their side and when pressed for RAW support, they ho hum the need for proof.

We gave proof through page reference, your side is the ones that have not proven that the rules state that you lose Swooping.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:


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N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

Because Fateweaver/LOCs would become truely invincable. At least now if you shower them with lasguns or bolt pistols, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll come down. But if you have to cause an unsaved wound you're looking at 6s to hit, wounding Toughness6, then a re-rollable 3++ invulnerable save .

Point taken. I was looking from only a tyranid perspective - no re-rollable 3++ saves for us. :( Best we can do is 3+ armor followed by 5+ feel no pain.

Lets not forget shooting down our FMCs with our own Psychic buffs.. Onslaught anyone . But yes, markerlight hits, etc... are just silly. It should be based on wounds and even if you have a nasty Fateweaver/LOC, then you have fliers to take care of those things.

Inferring it yes based on the layout of the entire FMC page. Have you stepped back and looked at the page formatting as a whole?

There are only 4 major subtitles. Changing flight mode, gliding, swooping and special rules. Gliding and swooping are mutually exclusive as you choose one of the other and cannot be both. If grounded was an exclusive state, it would have its own section with equally large font.

Instead, it appears in the very last paragraph of the very last subtitle under swooping. Because its in the swooping section, and specifically removes jink and the assault ban, and does not specifically cancel swooping or had to hit, that makes it a modified state of swooping.