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Tyrants dont have an invulnerable save - who cares?

Ok people
Remember your turn and your oponants turn are done to create a narative, movie like game. So shooting in your turn all happens at the sames time. but we do it squad by squad to keep the chaos down to a minimum. So its swooping till the assault phase if grounded, at which point you can charge it.. I do however thank all of you for the intertainment in this forum.

chuck

Lungpickle wrote:I do however thank all of you for the intertainment in this forum.

chuck

intertainment? Is that like enjoying yourself from the inside? Or perhaps a form of enjoying yourself while Grounded? Surley you can't be intertained and Swooping at the same time right?

I love it when people try to use fluff to justify how they want to abuse the rules.

Dozer Blades wrote:I love it when people try to use fluff to justify how they want to abuse the rules.

Almost as bad as using a convoluted and abused form of "logic".

Internet+entertainment = Intertainment

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

"and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature".
This is then defined.

I no more have to justify why a Grounded MC does not have Hard To Hit, than I have to justify why all jump infantry do not have FNP, or why independant Charectors are not all WS10.

This is flat out wrong. Start first with the understanding that this is a permissive rule set. Keep that in mind as you iterate through the relevant rules.

As DR pointed out, Swooping is chosen at the start of the [model's] movement phase. It explicitly (permissive rule set) sets the duration of Swooping to last until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase. Next, assume the unit was shot and failed the grounding test.

1.) Where in the Grounded rule does it say that the unit no longer has the flight mode of 'Swooping'. Remember that this is a permissive rule set. Answer: It doesn't specifically say that the Swooping flight mode no longer applies. My opinion is that this is an oversight.

2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set. Answer: It removes the Swooping property of 'Hard to Hit' and it removes the property of 'Jink'. That's it.

Rule guys seem to be confusing what you think the rule should do with what it actually does do.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

In this game, governed by a permissive rule set, it's absolutely possible to have a FMC have a flight mode of 'Swooping' and be affected by Grounded. 'Swooping' is not 'flying really fast', that's fluff. Swooping is a set of rules that dictate certain actions the controlling player may make with the swooping model. It also affects the choices and subsequent actions the opposing player may take regarding the swooping FMC. Your argument becomes a bit problematic when you admit that you're wrong on the RAW. It seems to me that when you say 'logically' you mean RAI. Moving normally simply means that the Grounded property and its affects no longer apply to the Swooping FMC.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:I posted a quote earlier but you didn't respond to it. Either you missed it or ignored it, I am not sure. Could go either way. So here it is again.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

You asked for rules quotes, I gave them to you. It cannot be flying if it crashed into the ground. And what proof do I have that it hit the ground? Well, it says the beast crashes for one. It also takes a S9 hit. What do you think that hit came from? Wishful thinking?

The model may move normally, which does more than imply but straight says the FMC is no longer moving like he was before. There, further rules quotes that you lose Swooping.

If you claim that Grounded FMC does not mean it is Grounded and not Swooping then Swooping FMC does not mean what you say it means. You do not have permission to be a Swooping Grounded FMC. You have explicit permission to be a Swooping FMC or a Grounded FMC not both. Prove that you can have both. I have proven that you cannot.

'Comes crashing to the ground is not a rule', it's fluff. The part of that quote that is an actual rule is, "If a 1 or 2 is rolled it suffers a single S9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. If you think that phrase is a rule then I would expect you to ask the FMC player to drop his model onto the ground

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

slice'n'dice wrote:1. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a State, otherwise it would not be capitalised ( p49

2. Under the Grounded Test rules, the creature is first referred to as a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, and then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature if it fails a Grounded Test.

3. If it fails a Grounded Test, it becomes Grounded.

4. Definition of "become": to change State, to transform,to grow into something else.

These points together form a pretty strong implicit argument that you cease to be swooping, and become grounded.

couple that with the fact the removal of jink as per the grounded rules has no effect if you are still swooping. (see my post on pg6).

also, following the logic that it never actually states you lose Swooping, it also never states you lose Grounded
_ so once you are grounded in a game I suppose you're grounded for the rest of that game.

All the rules make a lot more sense if you adhere to the strong implicit (I agree, not explicit) interpretation that you do lose Swooping.

As stated before though, as long as you agree with your opponent how you'll play it, I'll personally accept either interpretation

I would suggest that your first premise is flawed. You're argument boils down to, 'because it's capitalized it must be statefull'. I think you need a bit more support to suggest state, not only why that's relevant to the flight modes that can be chosen, but also saying that capitalization denotes state is not, in my opinion, sufficient.

-Yad

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

"and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature".
This is then defined.

I no more have to justify why a Grounded MC does not have Hard To Hit, than I have to justify why all jump infantry do not have FNP, or why independant Charectors are not all WS10.

This is flat out wrong. Start first with the understanding that this is a permissive rule set. Keep that in mind as you iterate through the relevant rules.

As DR pointed out, Swooping is chosen at the start of the [model's] movement phase. It explicitly (permissive rule set) sets the duration of Swooping to last until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase. Next, assume the unit was shot and failed the grounding test.

1.) Where in the Grounded rule does it say that the unit no longer has the flight mode of 'Swooping'. Remember that this is a permissive rule set. Answer: It doesn't specifically say that the Swooping flight mode no longer applies. My opinion is that this is an oversight.

2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set. .

Rule guys seem to be confusing what you think the rule should do with what it actually does do.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

In this game, governed by a permissive rule set, it's absolutely possible to have a FMC have a flight mode of 'Swooping' and be affected by Grounded. 'Swooping' is not 'flying really fast', that's fluff. Swooping is a set of rules that dictate certain actions the controlling player may make with the swooping model. It also affects the choices and subsequent actions the opposing player may take regarding the swooping FMC. Your argument becomes a bit problematic when you admit that you're wrong on the RAW. It seems to me that when you say 'logically' you mean RAI. Moving normally simply means that the Grounded property and its affects no longer apply to the Swooping FMC.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:I posted a quote earlier but you didn't respond to it. Either you missed it or ignored it, I am not sure. Could go either way. So here it is again.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

You asked for rules quotes, I gave them to you. It cannot be flying if it crashed into the ground. And what proof do I have that it hit the ground? Well, it says the beast crashes for one. It also takes a S9 hit. What do you think that hit came from? Wishful thinking?

The model may move normally, which does more than imply but straight says the FMC is no longer moving like he was before. There, further rules quotes that you lose Swooping.

If you claim that Grounded FMC does not mean it is Grounded and not Swooping then Swooping FMC does not mean what you say it means. You do not have permission to be a Swooping Grounded FMC. You have explicit permission to be a Swooping FMC or a Grounded FMC not both. Prove that you can have both. I have proven that you cannot.

'Comes crashing to the ground is not a rule', it's fluff. The part of that quote that is an actual rule is, "If a 1 or 2 is rolled it suffers a single S9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. If you think that phrase is a rule then I would expect you to ask the FMC player to drop his model onto the ground

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

slice'n'dice wrote:1. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a State, otherwise it would not be capitalised ( p49

2. Under the Grounded Test rules, the creature is first referred to as a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, and then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature if it fails a Grounded Test.

3. If it fails a Grounded Test, it becomes Grounded.

4. Definition of "become": to change State, to transform,to grow into something else.

These points together form a pretty strong implicit argument that you cease to be swooping, and become grounded.

couple that with the fact the removal of jink as per the grounded rules has no effect if you are still swooping. (see my post on pg6).

also, following the logic that it never actually states you lose Swooping, it also never states you lose Grounded
_ so once you are grounded in a game I suppose you're grounded for the rest of that game.

All the rules make a lot more sense if you adhere to the strong implicit (I agree, not explicit) interpretation that you do lose Swooping.

As stated before though, as long as you agree with your opponent how you'll play it, I'll personally accept either interpretation

I would suggest that your first premise is flawed. You're argument boils down to, 'because it's capitalized it must be statefull'. I think you need a bit more support to suggest state, not only why that's relevant to the flight modes that can be chosen, but also saying that capitalization denotes state is not, in my opinion, sufficient.

-Yad




Automatically Appended Next Post:
doh! sorry for the double post


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:There is only one correct way to play this. The RAI is quite clear. If you read carefully the RAW is also quite clear.

1. The type of monster is Flying Monsterous Creature. We'll say FMC.

2. In the start of its move it becomes either a "Gliding FMC" or a "Swooping FMC". A Swooping FMC gets Hard to HIt and can Dive to get a Jink save.

3. "A FMC that is swooping" must take a grounded test if hit.

4. Here is the RAW fact BRB p.49: "If a I or 2 is rolled, the beast comes
crashing down to the ground - it
suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no
armor or cover saves allowed, and
become Grounded. A Grounded Flying
Monstrous Creature can be charged
in the following Assault phase..."

You see, it no longer says Swooping FMC.

I'll break down #4 for you slow-mo style:
a. Swooping FMC
b. "crashing to the ground"
c. "suffers a single S9 hit"
d. "become Grounded"
e. Grounded FMC

Did you see that? From (d) to (e) it actually turned from a Swooping FMC to a Grounded FMC. That sound you hear is the sound of it losing Swooping.

Other things that don't make sense any other way:

Why take away Jink if you could just declare your FMC is diving and get it back? That would be pointless.

How is something already on the ground going to dive? That's rediculous.

If your brain hurts imagining a FMC made of rubber bouncing off the ground, taking multiple S9 hits, diving through solid ground, flying so fast you must roll 6's to hit but then you can walk and hit it with your sword...

Your 'b' is fluff. I for one am not dropping my FMC on the ground. It's not a rule. Your 'd' is also flawed. You are assuming that the words 'become Grounded' must somehow supplant the chosen flight mode of Swooping, when the Grounded rule gives you no such direction. Furthermore you are attempting to equate how these rules would work 'in real life'. Hence you consternation about them not making sense. As soon as you do this though you are no longer treating them as rules in a game.

-Yad

I forgot we were arguing with the King of Fluff. It is his job to ensure no fluff is let out of their cage and used inappropriately. As such it is his job to determine what is fluff and what is not. Don't even try to argue with the brilliant mind of one who can defeat an argument simply by redefining something that is pivotal to the issue at hand.

Or was I making it up? Either way, you don't get to determine what fluff is and is not, and redefining something to make you right is a fallacy. Context is everything, and in the context of the rules you are wrong. It is not fluff, try making a real argument not a fallacious one.

Oh, and there is taking things beyond literal too. No one expects the owner of the FMC to literally drop their model just like no one expects you to literally kill your units when they die. Saying the monster crashes to the ground does not require the model to do it. Yet another fallacy.

Considering that the rules do not state what action to perform when "crashing to the ground" It is a safe bet that it is fluff.

DeathReaper wrote:Considering that the rules do not state what action to perform when "crashing to the ground" It is a safe bet that it is fluff.

Like I said before, where do you think the str9 hit comes from? You crash to the ground and take a str9 hit and become grounded. But clearly the rules tell you nothing about what to do when crashing to the ground. Wait, no it does. Sorry, lost my train of thought there.

Captain Antivas wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Considering that the rules do not state what action to perform when "crashing to the ground" It is a safe bet that it is fluff.

Like I said before, where do you think the str9 hit comes from? You crash to the ground and take a str9 hit and become grounded. But clearly the rules tell you nothing about what to do when crashing to the ground. Wait, no it does. Sorry, lost my train of thought there.

The Str9 hit comes from the rule saying you take one.
Why does it say you take one? Because fluff.

The Grounded Tests entry says "...automatically loses the Jink special rule(if it had it), but can move normally in it's next turn." Is that to say that once it fails the grounding test it is no longer moving as normal, as in swooping? I understand that it doesn't say LOSING SWOOPING word for word but it seems to me that if it was Swooping(a normal movement type for a FMC) and is no longer moving as normal(because it states it can resume normal movement in the next turn), it is no longer swooping.

OMG reading this thread rustles my jimmies so hard. If you know the intention of the rule, but go by how it is written to get a loophole that benefits you, YOU ARE TFG.

Phragonist wrote:OMG reading this thread rustles my jimmies so hard. If you know the intention of the rule, but go by how it is written to get a loophole that benefits you, YOU ARE TFG.

I agree. Obviously the answer is it is still swooping since nothing removed that.

Phragonist wrote:OMG reading this thread rustles my jimmies so hard. If you know the intention of the rule, but go by how it is written to get a loophole that benefits you, YOU ARE TFG.

1) Its impossible to "know" intent other than what's written.
2) People arguing for a side don't always play that way.
3) Please be polite. Accusations of TFG aren't polite.

And it's not a benefit, really. Yes, it means it's still a 6 to hit. I've still lost 2 Flyrants to shooting in one turn, and one failed 2 grounding tests. If it wasn't for that second one he would've lived. If he wasn't hard to hit, he still would've died to shooting.

Yad wrote:
This is flat out wrong. Start first with the understanding that this is a permissive rule set. Keep that in mind as you iterate through the relevant rules.

As DR pointed out, Swooping is chosen at the start of the [model's] movement phase. It explicitly (permissive rule set) sets the duration of Swooping to last until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase. Next, assume the unit was shot and failed the grounding test.

1.) Where in the Grounded rule does it say that the unit no longer has the flight mode of 'Swooping'.

The bit where it says that it "comes crashing to the ground". Also the bit where it says it becomes a "Grounded Monstrous Creature" (note the capitalisation).

Yad wrote:
2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set.

Well it's not, but anyway.

The rulebook states explicitly what Grounded is. I cba looking it up but it removes jink and makes you assaultable.

Testify wrote:

Yad wrote:2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set.

Well it's not, but anyway.

The rulebook states explicitly what Grounded is. I cba looking it up but it removes jink and makes you assaultable.

This discussion aside, it really is. If you don't understand this there's going to be many fruitless discussions.

Well then if it doesn't specifically say you lose Swooping then you also never lose Grounded which means I can assault your FMC the rest of the game after one failed Grounded test.

Captain Antivas wrote:Well then if it doesn't specifically say you lose Swooping then you also never lose Grounded which means I can assault your FMC the rest of the game after one failed Grounded test.

But it does say you may move normally in your next turn. Being grounded isn't moving normally.

beigeknight wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Well then if it doesn't specifically say you lose Swooping then you also never lose Grounded which means I can assault your FMC the rest of the game after one failed Grounded test.

But it does say you may move normally in your next turn. Being grounded isn't moving normally.

Just so we are on the same page I agree with you. I was using their argument to point out how ridiculous their their "logic" is.

Captain Antivas wrote:

beigeknight wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Well then if it doesn't specifically say you lose Swooping then you also never lose Grounded which means I can assault your FMC the rest of the game after one failed Grounded test.

But it does say you may move normally in your next turn. Being grounded isn't moving normally.

Just so we are on the same page I agree with you. I was using their argument to point out how ridiculous their their "logic" is.

Right on. I am SO GLAD(scarcasm) this thread made it to the front page again lol.

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Yad wrote:2.) What does the Grounded rule explicitly do? Remember that this is a permissive rule set.

Well it's not, but anyway.

The rulebook states explicitly what Grounded is. I cba looking it up but it removes jink and makes you assaultable.

This discussion aside, it really is. If you don't understand this there's going to be many fruitless discussions.

The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

Captain Antivas wrote:Well then if it doesn't specifically say you lose Swooping then you also never lose Grounded which means I can assault your FMC the rest of the game after one failed Grounded test.

No because I could choose to swoop again the following movement phase, which would make the FMC unassaultable again.

Testify wrote:The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

This explains a lot.

None of it good.

I'm confused by people who state that the FMC still has HtH while grounded.

First off, don't FMC actually have three "states of being" and not two? Grounded, Swooping, and Gliding? Don't you start the game on the ground, then decide how to act? FMC don't start the game in reserves like normal flyers. Can't you voluntarily go to ground so you can assault units? If you voluntarily ground yourself, do you get to keep HtH because the rules don't say you lose it?

Testify wrote:The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

Do you play any game? Monopoly? Checkers?
Those are permissive rule sets as well. For them to function, you have to look at the rules to limit what you're able to do.
If the rules don't say you can, you can't.

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

Do you play any game? Monopoly? Checkers?
Those are permissive rule sets as well. For them to function, you have to look at the rules to limit what you're able to do.
If the rules don't say you can, you can't.

The rules don't say lots of things. The crux of this issue is people refusing to accept that "comes crashing to the ground and becomed a Grounded Monstrous Creature" means that it is no longer swooping (and more importantly, hard to hit). I would say common sense dictates that this pretty clearly means that the FMC is no longer Swooping (and HTH).

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:The phrase "permissive ruleset" exclusively turns up whenever someone is trying to pull a dick/WAAC move.
Also, find me the page reference for it.

Do you play any game? Monopoly? Checkers?
Those are permissive rule sets as well. For them to function, you have to look at the rules to limit what you're able to do.
If the rules don't say you can, you can't.

The rules don't say lots of things. The crux of this issue is people refusing to accept that "comes crashing to the ground and becomed a Grounded Monstrous Creature" means that it is no longer swooping (and more importantly, hard to hit). I would say common sense dictates that this pretty clearly means that the FMC is no longer Swooping (and HTH).

Actually that's not correct.

Only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard To Hit per the rules.

p49
Hard To Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire USR.

Okay, so we make an assumption at this point that if a FMC moved via Swooping that it is now a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. Is that correct? Because as far as I can tell... there's really no definition of a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. Safe assumption IMO and I think most will agree.

Here's where and why you are wrong however...

p49
Grounded Tests
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the best comes crashing to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armor or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally next turn.

Now, you will note, that it specifically refers to GROUNDED Flying Monstrous Creature. It does not say Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. Grounded Flying Monstrous Creatures do not have Hard To Hit nor do Flying Monstrous Creatures. Only Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit.

So if we make the assumption that when the FMC moves via Swooping that it becomes a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, then the same logical assumption would be applied that when the rules tell us that the FMC becomes a Ground Flying Monstrous Creature, that it is no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Effectively we're left with one of two ways to play it. Neither of which are the recurring Grounding Tests per Turn.

1) There is no such thing as a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, as that is not defined, therefore no Flying Monstrous Creatures have Hard to Hit
AND
There is no such thing as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creatures, as that is not defined, therefore no Flying Monstrous Creature that moves via Swooping can ever be assaulted, even if it fails its Grounded Test.

2) When a FMC moves via Swooping it becomes a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, and therefor gains the Hard to Hit rule
AND
When a FMC fails its Grounded Test and become Grounded, they become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature (no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature) and therefor lose the Hard to Hit rule.

In short, we don't need a definition of Grounded or a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, because as soon as the FMC becomes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, it is no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. Therefor it does not have the Hard to Hit rule.

The issue with that argument is how the english language works.

You don't need a definition of either Swooping MC or Grounded MC.

Look at this way

I see a man that is running = I see a running man.

Therefore a MC that is Swooping = a swooping MC.

The rulebook defines what is required for a MC to be swooping.

A grounded MC = a MC that has been grounded

the rulebook defines what it means to be grounded (can be assaulted loses Jink.

There are only 2 modes for a FMC that are given Swoop mode and Glide mode, there is no grounded mode. You can only choose between these 2 things.

That said I generally play Grounded = no longer swooping as it is less advantageuos to me. (which is always how I play unless there is a ruling otherwise.)

However, the only reason I think that a Grounded MC might still get hard to hit is because it would have been far easier for GW to write the rule as "takes a s9 AP1 hit and counts as gliding for the remainder of the turn."

Captain Antivas wrote:Well then if it doesn't specifically say you lose Swooping then you also never lose Grounded which means I can assault your FMC the rest of the game after one failed Grounded test.

No because I could choose to swoop again the following movement phase, which would make the FMC unassaultable again.

Again, I'm on your side. If it works like they say it does then their FMC is always assaultable since it never states it loses grounded once you move again.