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Captain Antivas wrote:The context of the rules says that you lose Swooping and become Grounded. Context is everything. Even though it doesn't explicitly say I can't bring a Blood Angels Dreadnought as Heavy Support choice when my primary force of SM has a MotF so I can't do it, but here it has to explicitly say it? How does that work? Either context = explicit or it does not, which means you have to concede one point, here or there. You cannot have it both ways. The context of the rules says you cannot be both, as we have already proven. You have yet to quote a single rule that defeats the context and explicit rule that you become Grounded and lose Swooping.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

The situation with the Dreadnought is not applicable, as the situations are not comparable.

In this case we are explicitly told when Swooping ends.

Becoming Grounded does not remove the fact that the MC used Swooping flight mode, that lasts until the start of its next turn, so it is still considered to have used Swooping Flight mode.

The benefits and penalties that go along with that are still intact, except the ones that are specifically overruled by the Grounded section of the rules.


P.S. It was probably intended to work the way you are saying Captain Antivas, but the BRB lacks sufficient rules language to make that the truth. It will probably be FAQed to no longer be swooping, but until then the RAW is that it retains hard to hit.

Kevlar wrote:

Kiredor wrote:
Grounded does not have that rule, so as I have permission from Swooping to be Hard to Hit, and nothing in the Grounded rule takes that away, and as Grounded does not, as a non contradictory adjective describing my FMC, remove swooping, I am still hard to hit.

You honestly believe that you can be on the ground and swooping at the same time?

The Rules are written that way, so in 40K yes, you can be a Swooping FMC that has become grounded.

Like I said, sometimes context doesn't mean anything, and other times is means everything. I would ask for some consistency in arguments please.

HoverBoy wrote:I just realised something.
These threads allways boil down to "pure logic" vs "common sense". I wonder how many of the pure logic people are affected by their knowledge (if any) in programming?

I program in PHP and I'm on the side that you would call "common sense".
I am also aware that there is no such thing as pure logic

Testify wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:I just realised something.
These threads allways boil down to "pure logic" vs "common sense". I wonder how many of the pure logic people are affected by their knowledge (if any) in programming?

I program in PHP and I'm on the side that you would call "common sense".
I am also aware that there is no such thing as pure logic

And thus the quotes, besides when it comes to the human mind nothing is ever truly pure.

There is only one correct way to play this. The RAI is quite clear. If you read carefully the RAW is also quite clear.

1. The type of monster is Flying Monsterous Creature. We'll say FMC.

2. In the start of its move it becomes either a "Gliding FMC" or a "Swooping FMC". A Swooping FMC gets Hard to HIt and can Dive to get a Jink save.

3. "A FMC that is swooping" must take a grounded test if hit.

4. Here is the RAW fact BRB p.49: "If a I or 2 is rolled, the beast comes
crashing down to the ground - it
suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no
armor or cover saves allowed, and
become Grounded. A Grounded Flying
Monstrous Creature can be charged
in the following Assault phase..."

You see, it no longer says Swooping FMC.

I'll break down #4 for you slow-mo style:
a. Swooping FMC
b. "crashing to the ground"
c. "suffers a single S9 hit"
d. "become Grounded"
e. Grounded FMC

Did you see that? From (d) to (e) it actually turned from a Swooping FMC to a Grounded FMC. That sound you hear is the sound of it losing Swooping.

Other things that don't make sense any other way:

Why take away Jink if you could just declare your FMC is diving and get it back? That would be pointless.

How is something already on the ground going to dive? That's rediculous.

If your brain hurts imagining a FMC made of rubber bouncing off the ground, taking multiple S9 hits, diving through solid ground, flying so fast you must roll 6's to hit but then you can walk and hit it with your sword...

Captain Antivas wrote:You are seriously saying that Grounded and Swooping are not contradictory?

Yes.

The Rules as Written, do not state that the two situations are mutually exclusive. In fact, Gliding and Swooping are the ONLY movement types. Grounded is a subset, and specifically does not remove every aspect of Swooping.

Please understand that for us (on this side of the fence) you are the one who cannot seem to grasp what we believe is a very simple concept.

With regards to those who are making arguments about the feasibility of rubber balls, and bouncing FMC. Really? You want to argue about reality and physics in a tabletop wargame full of daemons, sapient mushrooms, and psychic powers? Can we just stick to the rules instead? Thanks.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:You are seriously saying that Grounded and Swooping are not contradictory?

Yes.

The Rules as Written, do not state that the two situations are mutually exclusive. In fact, Gliding and Swooping are the ONLY movement types. Grounded is a subset, and specifically does not remove every aspect of Swooping.

The poster above you posts the RAW do in fact state that. You just refuse to see it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Why take away Jink if you could just declare your FMC is diving and get it back? That would be pointless.

This. Those who think you still get to Swoop when you are shot out of the sky please explain this.

GW need to include a dictionary with every rule book so that people can understand things like swooping and grounded are mutually exclusive.

Or they could have ya know, said that when Grounded you are no longer Swooping.

Knowing what was meant does not change what was written.

As written, it is as silly as posited.
Grounded does what it states, not all of what people assume.

kirsanth wrote:Knowing what was meant does not change what was written.

As written, it is as silly as posited.
Grounded does what it states, not all of what people assume.

Its not an assumption. You were Swooping, you were referred to as a Swooping FMC, you crashed, you become Grounded, you are referred to as a Grounded FMC. Pretty clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:Or they could have ya know, said that when Grounded you are no longer Swooping.

Yes they should have. Since they didn't we have to rely on context to find out what it means.

Grounded FMC, like Swooping FMC are all just descriptors, not different unit types.

A model is not a "Swooping FMC", it is a Swooping "FMC",
This is also written as a FMC that is Swooping.

You become a FMC that is Swooping, that is Grounded.

Swooping adds rules,
Grounded adds rules, and removes some.

Hard to hit is not one of these, so we have no permission to ignore it. So we can't.

Also Captain Antivas, i'm fine with you explaining why I'm wrong, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting me.

Kiredor wrote:Also Captain Antivas, i'm fine with you explaining why I'm wrong, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting me.

Insult? The only thing I said to you was made up monstrosities like a Grounded Swooping FMC have no place in this civilized rules debate. Since the rules don't say it exists it must have been made up. I am missing the insult..I wouldn't take that personal as it was not an insult.

Do you even think about what you say or do you just spew whatever comes to your brain onto the page?

was what I was talking about.

I'm perfectly fine with the rule being FAQ'd to how you view it, because there are so many ways that it can be abused as it is.

Since you lose Jink at that point, but nothing stops you diving again as soon as the next unit shoots you, or if you are grounded in your own turn, nothing stops you from assaulting in your turn, then not being assaulted in their turn.

Kiredor wrote:

Do you even think about what you say or do you just spew whatever comes to your brain onto the page?

was what I was talking about.

Still not an insult. But ok. It hurt your feelings and I am sorry. Like I said though, I would not take things I say personally. I am sarcastic and snarky, but not insulting.

To be honest, it reduces the validity of your argument, rather than hurts my feelings.

Its the whole "I can't beat your words so i'll just beat you" thing.

Not that I think its intentional on your part though.

But that's off track!

Basically, I read the use of Swooping, Gliding and Grounded as verbs describing the FMC, rather than specific to the type of the FMC. They are capitalised because they refer to the rule that is labelled Gliding, Grounded or Swooping, not because they are an aspect of the FMC. Which is why I can see them as non-contradictory.

But it does need an FAQ

Kiredor wrote:To be honest, it reduces the validity of your argument, rather than hurts my feelings.

Its the whole "I can't beat your words so i'll just beat you" thing.

Not that I think its intentional on your part though.

But that's off track!

Basically, I read the use of Swooping, Gliding and Grounded as verbs describing the FMC, rather than specific to the type of the FMC. They are capitalised because they refer to the rule that is labelled Gliding, Grounded or Swooping, not because they are an aspect of the FMC. Which is why I can see them as non-contradictory.

But it does need an FAQ

It does need an FAQ for sure. What I don't get is why is Gliding and Swooping contradictory if Grounded is not? The verbs describe what the FMC is doing. He is Swooping, Gliding, or Grounded. When he is Swooping he cannot be Gliding, when he is Swooping he cannot be Grounded. If they are verbs describing the FMC then the answer is clear. One cannot Swoop while Grounded. If it says he becomes Grounded, and Grounded is a verb describing the FMC, how is he also Swooping?

You determine your flight mode at the start of your turn, so at this point you decide on Gliding or Swooping.

From this point on, you are doing that thing.

They aren't contradictory adjectives, just there is no way to be both under the rules.

I am a sitting, typing, person.
It is a Swooping, Grounded, FMC.

Both are valid.

Remember due to the abstract nature of the rules, the FMC is Grounded (rule) Swooping (rule), not specifically the dictionary definition of Swooping and Grounded.

Kiredor wrote:You determine your flight mode at the start of your turn, so at this point you decide on Gliding or Swooping.

From this point on, you are doing that thing.

They aren't contradictory adjectives, just there is no way to be both under the rules.

I am a sitting, typing, person.
It is a Swooping, Grounded, FMC.

Both are valid.

Remember due to the abstract nature of the rules, the FMC is Grounded (rule) Swooping (rule), not specifically the dictionary definition of Swooping and Grounded.

Sitting and typing are not the same as comparing Grounded to Swooping. The only definitions I use are the ones described in the rules. When Swooping you are very hard to hit without special equipment. Grounded you can be hit with a sword but not a gun? And you have yet to address my specific question I posted before.

Captain Antivas wrote:One cannot Swoop while Grounded.

In real life that is correct, but The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

Captain Antivas wrote:OIf it says he becomes Grounded, and Grounded is a verb describing the FMC, how is he also Swooping?

FMC's can be under the rules for Swooping and for Grounded at the same time.

He is also Swooping because that is the movement mode (Flight mode) he used during his movement and nothing at all on that page explicitly says that he is no longer Swooping, and as we know Swooping lasts "until the start of its next turn."

Nothing explicitly says that Swooping is no longer in effect, so Swooping lasts "until the start of its next turn."

You can be simultaneously performing two actions.

Since the rules do NOT state that being grounded stops you swooping, then you don't stop swooping.

Happyjew wrote:Or they could have ya know, said that when Grounded you are no longer Swooping.

GW could write five paragraphs on each rule to make sure the intent and contents can never be confused but then again even if they did there would still be arguments.

Kiredor wrote:You can be simultaneously performing two actions.

Since the rules do NOT state that being grounded stops you swooping, then you don't stop swooping.

The rules don't state that once a model is dead, its effects stop working.
Or that once a model is moved, it is no longer where it was.
Or lots of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
In real life that is correct, but The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

Well, they were. They're written using the English language, not a programming language, or an abstract Games Rules Language.

So when they say "comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature", they mean... well. You know exactly what that means.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
In real life that is correct, but The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

Well, they were. They're written using the English language, not a programming language, or an abstract Games Rules Language.

So when they say "comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature", they mean... well. You know exactly what that means.

So you are saying that an assault cannon, which is basically just a gatling machine gun, has a range of about 40* meters?

Seems like the rules do not reflect Real Life Modern day logic.

(How I got this range? a Land Raider is just over 10 meters according to the Lexicanum and the model measures about 6.5 inches long. so 6.5 inches is about 10 meters, which 6 inches x 4 =24 inches = about 40 meters).

When the say "comes crashing down to the ground and becomes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature" it means you add in the rules for Grounded to the model, and it does not replace any previous rules. Unless you are saying a grounded FMC no longer has the Fear rule, because come on, who would be afraid of something that just plummeted to its death...

I don't understand why you guys are having such a hard time with this?? A Deffrolla clearly causes hits and wounds, so it can obviously be the target of a 'Weapon Destroyed' result!

Wait... sorry, what were we talking about?

DoW

This rule can easily be interpreted 2 different ways: RAW.

Interpretation 1. It does not explicitly state the words , "loses Swooping" or "loses Hard to Hit" - therefore it retains Swooping (and therfore Hard to Hit) until start of next turn where you get to choose a flight mode again.

Interpretation 2. By making Grounded FMC a State (by capitalising the word "Grounded" as well as "FMC" - note you do not generally capitalise adjectives), you are in fact creating a third State that cannot be chosen at the start of your turn (hence why it is not mentioned there) but only comes into play when people shoot at a Swooping FMC. By referring to a Swooping FMC in the Grounded rules, that when a test is failed, become Grounded, and then is referred to as a Grounded FMC - it's not a stretch at all to say that this is just a different way of saying it loses Swooping (obviously without using those particular magic words that would make this all easier).

So given that there are 2 RAW ways of interpreting it - which way works best within the ruleset (RAW).

If we retain Swooping for the reason stated in #1, we run into these problems:
1. The "Lose Jink" rule doesn't work, because you simply Dive again (which is allowed by both the Swooping and Grounded rules) which regains you the Jink ability
2. The same argument applied in #1 can be applied to the Grounded rules - as in once you are told you a Grounded, there is nothing in the rules that allows you to 'lose' this status. So you become Grounded for the rest of the game, and can be assaulted for the rest of the game even if you Swoop in later turns.

If you do not retain Swooping as per the reasoning states in #2 - you do not have either of these problems as:
1. You are no longer Swooping, so you have no ability to Dive later in this turn and regain Jink
2. As Grounding is a State, and the Grounded rules allow you to move normally in the next turn, you know return to being either Gliding or Swooping and are no longer Grounded.

Also, what would be the point in stating you can move normally next turn? Weren't you moving normally already?

Kiredor wrote:You can be simultaneously performing two actions.

Since the rules do NOT state that being grounded stops you swooping, then you don't stop swooping.

As a perfect example.

Standing FMC.
A Standing FMC is now Sitting. A Sitting FMC may not jump.
Sitting FMC.

Would you have to ask if a Sitting FMC was still Standing once it was Sitting?

SERIOUSLY.

Seriously guys.

Play it how you see fit.
This thread has two camps. No one is coming over to the darkside or the lightside on this until GW FAQ it.

It's however quite obvious that a grounded FMC is no longer Swooping.

We will all laugh at you and NOVA FAQ once GW puts it right.

Until then, play it how you see fit.

L0rdF1end wrote:We will all laugh at you and NOVA FAQ once GW puts it right.

Why?

I have said multiple times that losing swooping was probably how the rules were intended.

They are just not written to lose Swooping currently.

I would be fine with the FAQ ruling it either way, as both ways have their benefits and drawbacks.

Exactly. FWIW I took 2 Flyrants to a tournament this weekend that used the yo-yo interpretation. They weren't significantly less survivable, nor significantly harder to kill.