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DeathReaper wrote:
We do not agree because you have no actual rules supporting your viewpoint, while ours is backed fully by the rules.

Zing.
No it's not. I asked you to show a quote supporting this earlier in the thread and you couldn't, because it isn't.
Everything about your argument, you have inferred - will you at least concede that?
Either something is written (like, say, "and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature"), or it is inferred.

You are saying that the rules state that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Hard To Hit. Show me where it says that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:No, your point was not made for you. It never says Swooping is lost. NEVER.

Which is exactly what you are trying to say, but utterly failing.


FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

Actually no.
If you follow that logic through - that a MC is swooping until the rules say that it is not - then it never stops swooping. The rules say that you choose how it moves - they do not state that Swooping is no longer in effect.

Yeah it's a lot like people who tried to say Sanguine Sword stayed activated forever once activated.

Grey Templar wrote:FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

Unless they are shot out of the sky.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
We do not agree because you have no actual rules supporting your viewpoint, while ours is backed fully by the rules.

Zing.
No it's not. I asked you to show a quote supporting this earlier in the thread and you couldn't, because it isn't.
Everything about your argument, you have inferred - will you at least concede that?
Either something is written (like, say, "and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature"), or it is inferred.

You are saying that the rules state that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Hard To Hit. Show me where it says that.

It is not inferred. The rules explicitly state the duration of Swooping. I have not inferred this information.

Here are your rules quotes you asked for. Page 49 is where it says that:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature rnust declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

Rules say that it is Swooping until the start of its next turn.

"HARD To Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target..."

Rules say that it has the Hard to Hit rule whilst Swooping. Swooping lasts until the start of its(The MC's) next turn.

Nothing in the Grounded rules explicitly say that Swooping is lost.

Since Swooping lasts until the start of its next turn, and nothing takes Swooping away, then it is hard to hit, because it is Swooping, until the start of its next turn.

Grounded takes away the two rules it takes away, it does not explicitly take Swooping away.

Grey Templar wrote:No, your point was not made for you. It never says Swooping is lost. NEVER.

Which is exactly what you are trying to say, but utterly failing.

FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

Actually no.
If you follow that logic through - that a MC is swooping until the rules say that it is not - then it never stops swooping. The rules say that you choose how it moves - they do not state that Swooping is no longer in effect.

DeathReaper wrote:
Rules say that it has the Hard to Hit rule whilst Swooping. Swooping lasts until the start of its(The MC's) next turn.

Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit.
And you have failed to find me a quote that says otherwise.

To me it doesnt matter, the MC can take as many grounded tests, as units that shoot at him and hit him. He is then able to be assaulted if still alive.

The good thing, is that now grounded, i.e. assaultable, he is getting smacked at regular weapon skill with a T-hammer and will likely bite it rather quickly.

To me, I play raw, the MC is still swooping, just assaultable. No problems, no questions. Simple as that. If he is locked in assault, he is not able to move away, so any questions regarding movement in the next phase are irrelevant.

Not every army has marines standing by with thunderhammers covering the entire table... wishful thinking.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Rules say that it has the Hard to Hit rule whilst Swooping. Swooping lasts until the start of its(The MC's) next turn.

Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit.
And you have failed to find me a quote that says otherwise.

See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

You cannot be in two states simultaneously - therefore you cannot be grounded and swooping at the same time. To say otherwise is a purely logical fallacy.

DeathReaper wrote:
Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

"and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature".
This is then defined.

I no more have to justify why a Grounded MC does not have Hard To Hit, than I have to justify why all jump infantry do not have FNP, or why independant Charectors are not all WS10.

DeathReaper wrote:
See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

I posted a quote earlier but you didn't respond to it. Either you missed it or ignored it, I am not sure. Could go either way. So here it is again.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

You asked for rules quotes, I gave them to you. It cannot be flying if it crashed into the ground. And what proof do I have that it hit the ground? Well, it says the beast crashes for one. It also takes a S9 hit. What do you think that hit came from? Wishful thinking?

The model may move normally, which does more than imply but straight says the FMC is no longer moving like he was before. There, further rules quotes that you lose Swooping.

If you claim that Grounded FMC does not mean it is Grounded and not Swooping then Swooping FMC does not mean what you say it means. You do not have permission to be a Swooping Grounded FMC. You have explicit permission to be a Swooping FMC or a Grounded FMC not both. Prove that you can have both. I have proven that you cannot.

That does not say it loses Swooping Flight Mode.

Find something that does or you have no Rules basis for your argument.

Dozer Blades wrote:You cannot be in two states simultaneously - therefore you cannot be grounded and swooping at the same time. To say otherwise is a purely logical fallacy.

Grounded is not a Flight mode. Not sure what you are getting at.

Kevlar wrote:By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

So why specify that you lose Jink and can be assaulted, but no mention of Losing Hard to hit?

DeathReaper wrote:That does not say it loses Swooping Flight Mode.

Yes it does. It is implicit.

1. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a State, otherwise it would not be capitalised ( p49

2. Under the Grounded Test rules, the creature is first referred to as a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, and then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature if it fails a Grounded Test.

3. If it fails a Grounded Test, it becomes Grounded.

4. Definition of "become": to change State, to transform,to grow into something else.

These points together form a pretty strong implicit argument that you cease to be swooping, and become grounded.

couple that with the fact the removal of jink as per the grounded rules has no effect if you are still swooping. (see my post on pg6).

also, following the logic that it never actually states you lose Swooping, it also never states you lose Grounded
_ so once you are grounded in a game I suppose you're grounded for the rest of that game.

All the rules make a lot more sense if you adhere to the strong implicit (I agree, not explicit) interpretation that you do lose Swooping.

As stated before though, as long as you agree with your opponent how you'll play it, I'll personally accept either interpretation

I just realised something.
These threads allways boil down to "pure logic" vs "common sense". I wonder how many of the pure logic people are affected by their knowledge (if any) in programming?

DeathReaper wrote:So why specify that you lose Jink and can be assaulted, but no mention of Losing Hard to hit?

As has been pointed out earlier Jink lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase and has nothing to do with swooping. You gain Jink by diving not by swooping, so it is essential to say you lose it because losing Swooping would not remove Jink.

Saying it is assaultable is just a clarification that although the creature was Swooping, it is no longer unassaultable.

The rules state there are only TWO flight modes,

Swooping and Gliding.

Therefore Grounded is not a flight mode, and does not counteract the model being Swooping.

Thus any rules for Swooping not directly countered by Grounded are still in effect.

No one is claiming that Grounded is a flight mode, will you all please stop saying that and actually read what is being written. It is not a flight mode, but it is specifically stated to be its own mode. The FMC can move as normal after being Grounded, which means he is not moving as normal. Normal moving requires Swooping or Gliding, and since the FMC is not moving as normal he loses the benefits of both. He is a Grounded FMC, not a Gliding Grounded FMC, but the book specifically refers to him as a Grounded FMC.

Right a Grounded FMC, that moved in Swooping flight mode, as NOTHING takes away the movement mode he used in his movement phase.

Nothing in the Grounded Rules says that he loses Hard to hit.

Captain Antivas wrote:As has been pointed out earlier Jink lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase and has nothing to do with swooping. You gain Jink by diving not by swooping, so it is essential to say you lose it because losing Swooping would not remove Jink.

Except you have to be Swooping to declare Dive and get the Jink rule...

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not say it loses Swooping Flight Mode.

Yes it does. It is implicit.

Actually it is implied that it keeps its Swooping Mode, because grounded specifically mentions removal of jink and add in the ability to be assaulted. if they went that far they could have just said it replaces Swooping with Gliding flight mode and everything would have been clear.

But they did not say this so it is implied that only the things listed under Grounded are added/removed and everything else stays the same.

And you have to be Swooping to have to take the Grounding test when you get hit by a shooting attack, what is your point? If you lose Swooping you would not automatically lose Jink so they specified you lose it when you become Grounded.

Captain Antivas wrote:And you have to be Swooping to have to take the Grounding test when you get hit by a shooting attack, what is your point? If you lose Swooping you would not automatically lose Jink so they specified you lose it when you become Grounded.

Right so the Specifically take away Jink, but not Swooping so Swooping flight mode in unaffected.

Nothing in Grounded overrides the rules provided by it having moved as Swooping, which is a flight mode. Thus it is technically a Swooping, Grounded, Flying Monstrous Creature.

Swooping, Grounded, and Gliding are all prefixes to the unit type Flying Monstrous Creature. None of them are unit types, and nothing apart from the rules separating Swooping and Gliding prevent a FMC having more than one of those states.

It is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, that is also a Swooping Monstrous Creature, and has the rules for both

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:And you have to be Swooping to have to take the Grounding test when you get hit by a shooting attack, what is your point? If you lose Swooping you would not automatically lose Jink so they specified you lose it when you become Grounded.

Right so the Specifically take away Jink, but not Swooping so Swooping flight mode in unaffected.

It doesn't have to specify it, once you are Grounded you lose Swooping, but Jink would still apply. They specify Jink gets lost because they have to or it would not be taken away. They don't specify losing Hard to Hit because you lose that when you lose Swooping, which happens when you fall to the ground. My goodness people learn to read and understand basic English. You become Grounded. You are referred to as a Grounded FMC, not a Grounded Swooping FMC. Nowhere in the rules do you have permission to be both at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kiredor wrote:It is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, that is also a Swooping Monstrous Creature, and has the rules for both

Prove it with rules. Show me one rule that says you can be both. Because everywhere else the FMC is defined by its Flight Mode, unless it is Grounded in which case it is not flying anymore and is referred to only as a Grounded FMC, not that monstrosity you invented in your basement that has no place in a civilized person's rules debate.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Kiredor wrote:It is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, that is also a Swooping Monstrous Creature, and has the rules for both

Prove it with rules.

We have.
"Changing Flight Mode: At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

The creature is Swooping until the start of its next turn.

Nothing explicitly says that the creature is no longer in Swooping Flight Mode, so all of its rules still apply, as nothing says that Swooping Flight mode is no longer in effect and it explicitly lasts until the start of its next turn...

Hrm? "A flying monstrous creature that is swooping"

Shows that it is not a (Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature) but a Swooping (Flying Monstrous Creature). Same with Gliding and Grounded.

As it specifically states that it can only move as one of the two flight modes, Swooping and Gliding are contradictory.

Grounded does not have that rule, so as I have permission from Swooping to be Hard to Hit, and nothing in the Grounded rule takes that away, and as Grounded does not, as a non contradictory adjective describing my FMC, remove swooping, I am still hard to hit.

Kiredor wrote:
Grounded does not have that rule, so as I have permission from Swooping to be Hard to Hit, and nothing in the Grounded rule takes that away, and as Grounded does not, as a non contradictory adjective describing my FMC, remove swooping, I am still hard to hit.

You honestly believe that you can be on the ground and swooping at the same time?

You are seriously saying that Grounded and Swooping are not contradictory? Do you even think about what you say or do you just spew whatever comes to your brain onto the page?

This is a easy as wound overflow its wishfull thinking and trying to bend rules. Just wait for F&Q that says they are grounded like the book says.

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

Kiredor wrote:It is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, that is also a Swooping Monstrous Creature, and has the rules for both

Prove it with rules.

We have.
"Changing Flight Mode: At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

The creature is Swooping until the start of its next turn.

Nothing explicitly says that the creature is no longer in Swooping Flight Mode, so all of its rules still apply, as nothing says that Swooping Flight mode is no longer in effect and it explicitly lasts until the start of its next turn...

The context of the rules says that you lose Swooping and become Grounded. Context is everything. Even though it doesn't explicitly say I can't bring a Blood Angels Dreadnought as Heavy Support choice when my primary force of SM has a MotF so I can't do it, but here it has to explicitly say it? How does that work? Either context = explicit or it does not, which means you have to concede one point, here or there. You cannot have it both ways. The context of the rules says you cannot be both, as we have already proven. You have yet to quote a single rule that defeats the context and explicit rule that you become Grounded and lose Swooping.