Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dozer Blades wrote:Wrong... The rule doesn't tell you to keep swooping. You lose the jink and you can be assaulted. It's explicit you're no longer swooping anymore.

Saw a dude at my FLGS throw a tantrum when we wouldn't let him keep swooping. He got all red in the face and started shouting.

1) Rehashing the exact same argument (from 5 pages ago).

2) Selective reading of the rules (Grounding specifically states what happens to jink and immunity to assault, that's it)

3) Strawman (your FLGS is important, why?).

People have responded to this exact argument several times. You do not need to be told you keep/retain/still have/have the benefit of/do not lose Swooping after a Grounding test any more than you need to be told that you keep Feel no Pain when you take a Pinning test.

The horse is dead, Dozer, please stop beating it if you have nothing original to add.

DoW

I don't understand how you can be assaulted but still considered to be swooping. Those two conditions do not coexist. It doesn't come right out and say it but it is strongly implied that grounded monstrous creatures are no longer swooping and can not do so again until a later turn.

Kevlar wrote:I don't understand how you can be assaulted but still considered to be swooping. Those two conditions do not coexist. It doesn't come right out and say it but it is strongly implied that grounded monstrous creatures are no longer swooping and can not do so again until a later turn.

They absolutely can coexist. The results of a grounding hit specify you can be assaulted.

rigeld2 wrote:
They absolutely can coexist. The results of a grounding hit specify you can be assaulted.

Right, and the rule for swooping says that a swooping monstrous creature cannot charge or be charged. In addition, the grounding rule states that MC may again move normally in their following turn.

Why include they "may move normally in their following turn" unless they are indeed no longer moving normally (swooping)?

It doesn't make any sense other than to conclude that grounded models lose swooping. I'm not saying that it is correct by RAW because it is a horribly written rule, but logically it is the only way that works.

I got to page three and wanted to pull my hair out. Really you guys? This is beyond ridiculous that you cannot see the RAW and insist on arguing nonsense.

1. A FMC that fails its grounding test "comes crashing down to the ground..." If you are actually claiming that a FMC can be Swooping after it crashes to the ground...do you understand what crashes means? This is further supported by the rules when it says "...and becomes Grounded." It is no longer Swooping because it becomes Grounded.

2. In the permissive ruleset you have permission to benefit from the Hard to Hit rule when, and only when, you are a Swooping FMC. "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target..." You lose the ability to benefit from Hard to Hit when you are no longer classified as a Swooping FMC. This happens when you "become Grounded."

3. It specifies you lose Jink because Jink covers you until the start of your next movement phase. But, since you lost the ability to Dive, by crashing, you lose Jink immediately.

4. A FMC that is Grounded can Swoop again, as evidenced by the fact that it says you can get Jink back by Diving later in the game. If you cannot Swoop anymore after becoming Grounded then you could not possibly Dive again, and that would be breaking a rule.

Captain Antivas wrote:I got to page three and wanted to pull my hair out. Really you guys? This is beyond ridiculous that you cannot see the RAW and insist on arguing nonsense.

1. A FMC that fails its grounding test "comes crashing down to the ground..." If you are actually claiming that a FMC can be Swooping after it crashes to the ground...do you understand what crashes means? This is further supported by the rules when it says "...and becomes Grounded." It is no longer Swooping because it becomes Grounded.

Fluff argument is fluff. "comes crashing down to the ground" is descriptive language and not an actual rule. If so, do you mean for the player to hold up their FMC and drop it on the table? 'Becomes Grounded' is not a flight mode that the player can choose from, nor does the Grounded rule explicitly say that the Swooping mode is lost. It also doesn't say that Grounded is another flight mode.

Captain Antivas wrote:2. In the permissive ruleset you have permission to benefit from the Hard to Hit rule when, and only when, you are a Swooping FMC. "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target..." You lose the ability to benefit from Hard to Hit when you are no longer classified as a Swooping FMC. This happens when you "become Grounded."

Nope. The FMC loses the property of HtH because it has gained the property of Grounded, not because they lose Swooping. You're right that it's a permissive rule set, you just need to practice what you preach

Captain Antivas wrote:3. It specifies you lose Jink because Jink covers you until the start of your next movement phase. But, since you lost the ability to Dive, by crashing, you lose Jink immediately.

Same answer as before. You lose Jink because Grounded says you lost jink (permissive rule set )

Captain Antivas wrote:4. A FMC that is Grounded can Swoop again, as evidenced by the fact that it says you can get Jink back by Diving later in the game. If you cannot Swoop anymore after becoming Grounded then you could not possibly Dive again, and that would be breaking a rule.

You have yet to point to anywhere in the Grounded rule where it says that you actually lose the Swooping flight mode. Grounded is simply a property that is applied to a Swooping FMC. It's definitely a gap in the way the RAW is written and I don't think it ought to play that way. I imagine in friendly games you shouldn't have too much difficulty in convincing your friends, but this is RAW.

-Yad

Yad has it.

I certainly don't blame the other camp for getting frustrated. Common sense absolutely tells us that a Grounded FMC that was Swooping should lose Swooping. It makes sense from a fluff perspective, it makes sense from a gaming perspective, and it makes sense from what we can imagine GW probably intended to balance out the rules for FMC.

What most certainly doesn't support it is the RAW. To be fair, RAW is not everything (especially if it breaks the game and there is no way to play other than packing up and going home) but it should be paramount to players who are wishing to play the game properly. Arguing that something is RAW because you want it to be, the fluff seems to say so, common sense would agree, or it's what GW would have intended, is just plain wrong.

As Inigo Montoya might say: "I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

Never fear, the incoming FAQ will (probably) answer this question.

DoW

It is called a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is the same format as a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. But no let's go ahead and read it like something completely different.

Who died and made you the fluff police? Now something is fluff simply because you decide it is? It is part of the description, it is a rule. It sure takes a brilliant mind to discard every argument that disagrees with you and label it "fluff" and declare victory. Nice work.

It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Captain Antivas wrote:It is called a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is the same format as a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. But no let's go ahead and read it like something completely different.

And yet it's not a formally defined Flight Mode that can be chosen during the controlling player's Movement phase. Nor is it ever described as a 'flight mode' in the text of the rules.

Captain Antivas wrote:Who died and made you the fluff police? Now something is fluff simply because you decide it is? It is part of the description, it is a rule. It sure takes a brilliant mind to discard every argument that disagrees with you and label it "fluff" and declare victory. Nice work.

uh oh. It's fluff cause I'd rather not drop my FMC onto the table thank you very much

Captain Antivas wrote:It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Why not? Seems to me that you're missing the forest for the trees. The RAW describes two flight modes, Swooping and Gliding. Grounded is a property that can be applied to Swooping FMC. It's not a matter of me showing you the appropriate rules, it's a matter of you understanding the rules as written.

Captain Antivas wrote:Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Of course, I'm not, and never have, stating that a FMC still has HtH when affected by the Grounded rule. Not sure where you're getting that from...

-Yad

Captain Antivas wrote:It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Page 49 refers to it as a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature" and we know it is Swooping because that is what flight mode we chose for the FMC in the previous movement phase. (Instead of Gliding, which is the other movement mode of the two we have to choose from). Therefore it is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that has declared swooping as its movement mode in the movement phase.

We do have "permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping". Becoming Grounded only adds two things to a Flying MC that has declared swooping as its movement mode. These are "can be charged in the following Assault phase" and "automatically loses the Jink special rule".

That is it. It could not be charged and grounded over-rides that restriction, and if it had jink it loses it, because Grounded says so.

Unfortunately that is all Grounded takes away so it is still Swooping and you will need to take further Grounded tests if you are hit by a different unit.

I'm not really sure who is on which side anymre.

Yad wrote:And yet it's not a formally defined Flight Mode that can be chosen during the controlling player's Movement phase

This is because you cannot choose to be a Grounded FMC. You are never given permission to. You are only given permission to choose to be a Gliding FMC or a Swooping FMC. However, a Flying FMC can become a Grounded FMC.

Whether or not GW ever decided to clarify what they intended in the rules is questionable.

Yes, it was probably intended for the FMC to lose Swooping and Hard to hit, but the rules are not written that way.

They are written so that they can be assaulted and lose Jink, and that is all they lose RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:We do have "permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping". Becoming Grounded only adds two things to a Flying MC that has declared swooping as its movement mode. These are "can be charged in the following Assault phase" and "automatically loses the Jink special rule".

That is it. It could not be charged and grounded over-rides that restriction, and if it had jink it loses it, because Grounded says so.

Unfortunately that is all Grounded takes away so it is still Swooping and you will need to take further Grounded tests if you are hit by a different unit.

False. You become grounded. You are no longer Swooping as you are Grounded. You were forced to the Ground and are no longer Swooping. The RAW is clear. Again, show me where you have permission to be a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. You cannot be one because that doesn't exist. You become grounded, then you are referred to as a Grounded Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. They didn't specify you lose your Hard to Hit because it is obvious since you are a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged..." You are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature you are a Grounded one. RAW.

Captain Antivas wrote:False. You become grounded. You are no longer Swooping as you are Grounded. You were forced to the Ground and are no longer Swooping. The RAW is clear. Again, show me where you have permission to be a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. You cannot be one because that doesn't exist. You become grounded, then you are referred to as a Grounded Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. They didn't specify you lose your Hard to Hit because it is obvious since you are a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged..." You are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature you are a Grounded one. RAW.

False. Grounded is not a movement mode. Only Gliding and Swooping, and those both last until the FMC's next movement phase.

A Swooping MC can become grounded. this status does not say that Swooping is lost, so it is not (Permissive Ruleset).

I have shown permission to be Swooping. It lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase. Unless you have a rules quote that says that the FMC loses the benefits of the movement mode it chose in its movement phase, which was Swooping, if you have rules that say that it loses Swooping please refer us to the page, because it is not on P. 49.

Here is how I see the RAW - a grounded FMC is no longer swooping because he can be assaulted and loses jink. The rulebook does not state that a grounded FMC is still swooping either. This is the RAW.

Dozer Blades wrote:Here is how I see the RAW - a grounded FMC is no longer swooping because he can be assaulted and loses jink. The rulebook does not state that a grounded FMC is still swooping either. This is the RAW.

It doesn't have to.

In a permissive ruleset, if you are doing something(swooping) you must told explicitly that you stop doing something for it to stop.

Grounded does NOT say Swooping ends, therefore it does not. If they had really meant for Swooping to end, they would have said "a FMC that fails a Grounding test is no longer swooping, it is now Gliding for all rule purposes"

That would have also removed Jink and Hard to Hit(because you MUST be swooping to have those), but instead they singled out those 2 very specific parts of a Swooping FMC(that may or may not have dived earlier)


The very fact they singled those out says they it does indeed retain Swooping, and Hard to Hit(which is never mentioned)

Dozer and Antivas, you do realize that just saying 'RAW' several times in your posts doesn't make it reflect the actual rules, right?

I get the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point since neither of are disproving, countering, or even addressing GreyTemplar or Deathreaper's points.

I hate to say it, but this one is pretty cut and dry. It's certainly not HIWPI, but that's a different argument altogether.

DoW

And with the same token you don't automatically get to be right by telling me I am wrong either. Its a 2-way street. I am addressing the points they just don't agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:False. You become grounded. You are no longer Swooping as you are Grounded. You were forced to the Ground and are no longer Swooping. The RAW is clear. Again, show me where you have permission to be a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. You cannot be one because that doesn't exist. You become grounded, then you are referred to as a Grounded Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. They didn't specify you lose your Hard to Hit because it is obvious since you are a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged..." You are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature you are a Grounded one. RAW.

False. Grounded is not a movement mode. Only Gliding and Swooping, and those both last until the FMC's next movement phase.

A Swooping MC can become grounded. this status does not say that Swooping is lost, so it is not (Permissive Ruleset).

I have shown permission to be Swooping. It lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase. Unless you have a rules quote that says that the FMC loses the benefits of the movement mode it chose in its movement phase, which was Swooping, if you have rules that say that it loses Swooping please refer us to the page, because it is not on P. 49.

It sure is. The permission to benefit from Hard to Hit is to be a Swooping Monstrous Creature. You are not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. You are a Grounded Monstrous Creature. Grounded is not a movement mode because you are not moving. The Flight mode you are using is decided when you move. Swooping isn't a movement mode either, it is a Flight mode. But when you lose control and crash to the ground you are no longer flying. You are Grounded. You were Swooping, you got hit, you become Grounded and are now a Grounded FMC. Again, show me where you get permission to be both Swooping and Grounded.

No, Grounded is NOT a state of movement. The only states of movement are Swooping and Gliding. Grounded is a modification of Swooping.

I have permission to Swoop in the movement phase. Nothing ever takes that away(a point you have failed to counter) and then Grounded gets added onto it.

You must show that they are mutually exclusive(they are not) to say they cannot exist together.

I have shown that. A FMC that is Swooping and gets hit takes a Grounded test. If you fail you become Grounded. You become Grounded. You are no longer Swooping you become Grounded and are treated as a Grounded FMC.

That is how I see it to and this equates to the glide mode.

Yeah, you become Grounded. Whats that mean?

"a grounded FMC may be assaulted in the following assault phase and loses the Jink special rule(if it had it)"


Thats it, nothing else. Ziltch, nada, no mo, etc...

There is nothing there that shows it stops Swooping and loses Hard to Hit.

Except that you need permission to be both Grounded and Swooping. Which you do not have. It then gives special rules for being Grounded.

I have permission to be both.

I have permission to pick A or B. I am forced to take C on as a result of a Test. It is always allowed to have multiple states(except where specifically disallowed)

Captain Antivas wrote:And with the same token you don't automatically get to be right by telling me I am wrong either. Its a 2-way street. I am addressing the points they just don't agree.

We do not agree because you have no actual rules supporting your viewpoint, while ours is backed fully by the rules.

Captain Antivas wrote: The Flight mode you are using is decided when you move. Swooping isn't a movement mode either, it is a Flight mode.

Which is movement.

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes:" P.49

FMC's Move by using a flight mode.

Flight mode = Movement.

Captain Antivas wrote:But when you lose control and crash to the ground you are no longer flying

Nowhere in the actual rules on P.49 does it say this.

It does not say that you are no longer Flying.

Stop insisting that it does, unless you have a quote to back you up, which you do not.

Mine is supported by the rules, you just don't interpret them to mean what I say they mean. You cannot argue that it is as clear as it should be. We are back to going around and around the same circular argument so I am stepping out before this gets out of hand.

But before I go, I have one quote for you. I assume you are going to label this as fluff and discount it, but I am going to try anyway.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

Yep, it never says the beast stops flying, it just crashes to the ground, becomes grounded, and takes a S9 hit from hitting the ground. But you are right, you can crash and hit the ground and still be flying. Good catch there.

That is because the rules do not actually say what you are insisting that they say.

Where does it specifically mention the removal of the Swooping Status?

If it does not specifically mention the removal of the Swooping Status then the Swooping Status is retained. (Permissive ruleset tells us this).

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, you become Grounded. Whats that mean?

"a grounded FMC may be assaulted in the following assault phase and loses the Jink special rule(if it had it)"


Thats it, nothing else. Ziltch, nada, no mo, etc...

There is nothing there that shows it stops Swooping and loses Hard to Hit.

You've just made my point for me. Thanks for that. You are trying to establish a case that an FMC can be partially swooping which I find silly.

No, your point was not made for you. It never says Swooping is lost. NEVER.

Which is exactly what you are trying to say, but utterly failing.


FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

It can't be partially swooping / either it is or it is not.