Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so, what are our current tactics to deal with Flyers.

Please post your ideas here. I don't want replies stating "Hope for a roll on this power" because hope doesn't deal with flyers when you don't roll the needed power.

The only option i can think of at the moment is Hive Tyrant with devourers and OA. Glance the things to death on AV12. Still a tough call to role 6's and then 6's. Potentially 1-2 glances per Flyrant.
Also possibly including the Trygon Prime. I think thats 12 shots Str 6? I don't have my codex to hand to check.

So, reliable options for dealing with flyers please guys.
Cheers.

Aegis Defense Lines and Quad Guns/Icarus Lascannons.

Or, ignore the Flyers and play the mission. 5/6 of missions are objective based. Flyers can't hold objectives except in 1/6 of missions.

Hive guard would be excellent at it, minus the only hitting on 6's bit, as they don't get Jink cover saves correct? I'm not sure thats the case or not, but Hive Guard do ignore Cover correct?

Hive Guard do not ignore cover. Hive Guard simply don't require LoS to their target. Well when they're not Lurking they don't, at any rate.

Hive guard do ignore cover except for terrain the enemy are physically touching, so if the jink is a cover (not invulnerable) they do not get the save as per the FAQ

Edited to add

The only tactic nids really have is spray and pray I'm afraid, vector striking ht's are a long shot unless it gets faq'd for iron arm to work with it. So until we get a new codex or a white dwarf release model it's just a case of taking it up the tail pipe.

You got about a 53% chance to score 1 or more hit with 2 hive guard against a flyer. Being that most of them are AV10/11/12 you've got a reasonable shot at removing a hull point or suppressing the flyer for a turn.

As far as dealing with a flying circus list, you'd need a bit more.

Vector strikes should help (they can target flyers, right?) Although they're against side armour, they are hits, and flying off the board after a vector strike wouldn't necessarily be bad.

The Nids can easily fit enough psykers into a list that you can rely on objuration mechanicum to deal with flyers. Tyrants, Tervigons, and Zoanthropes are already good choices, and don't require gimping your list because you can tailor your power loadout as needed. Fitting 13 Psykers is easy for a 2000 pt list and that gives you an average of more than 4 OMs per turn.

scimitar wrote:The Nids can easily fit enough psykers into a list that you can rely on objuration mechanicum to deal with flyers. Tyrants, Tervigons, and Zoanthropes are already good choices, and don't require gimping your list because you can tailor your power loadout as needed. Fitting 13 Psykers is easy for a 2000 pt list and that gives you an average of more than 4 OMs per turn.

I second this. I tend to just run 6 psykers with 15 power slots. That means I will statisticly have 3 OM (so its not really a "hope").

Oh and 13 psykers should be at least 26 Slots. Only a 1 in 5 chance of getting OM (have to reroll Void with a Lvl 1). So I would say at least 4 is conservitive (unless you are running Swarmlord).

Honestly I have played against a ton of flyer lists in 6th. (The worse was something like 6 Valks). They are not that bad for Nids.

1) They can't shoot into CC. That means that unless you are running a very shooty army all your good stuff should be safely in CC by turn 3.
2) They are generally only on the board 3 turns of any game.
3) They have massive blind spots.

So far after turn 3 the worse that they have done is shoot up some termigaunts in cover holding objectives. I am generally more worried about what is getting transported in them to be honest.

Gloomfang wrote:

scimitar wrote:The Nids can easily fit enough psykers into a list that you can rely on objuration mechanicum to deal with flyers. Tyrants, Tervigons, and Zoanthropes are already good choices, and don't require gimping your list because you can tailor your power loadout as needed. Fitting 13 Psykers is easy for a 2000 pt list and that gives you an average of more than 4 OMs per turn.

I second this. I tend to just run 6 psykers with 15 power slots. That means I will statisticly have 3 OM (so its not really a "hope").

Oh and 13 psykers should be at least 26 Slots. Only a 1 in 5 chance of getting OM (have to reroll Void with a Lvl 1). So I would say at least 4 is conservitive (unless you are running Swarmlord).

Honestly I have played against a ton of flyer lists in 6th. (The worse was something like 6 Valks). They are not that bad for Nids.

1) They can't shoot into CC. That means that unless you are running a very shooty army all your good stuff should be safely in CC by turn 3.
2) They are generally only on the board 3 turns of any game.
3) They have massive blind spots.

So far after turn 3 the worse that they have done is shoot up some termigaunts in cover holding objectives. I am generally more worried about what is getting transported in them to be honest.

Agreed, its the transporting Flyers that concern me the most.

So to look at all options...

Vector Strikes 1+D3 auto hits on side armour. Most flyers are AV 12 on side armour? So average of 2-3 hits, needing 6's to glance...
This to me isnt really dealing with them.

Flyrant with Twin Linked devourers.
Possibly scoring 1-2 glances per Tyrant. Again, it's not ideal.

Mass of Psykers
I don't really see this as a solution either. Your going to poor all of your Pyskers powers into getting OM?
Surely some of the other powers are useful for buffs and such from Biomancy, Surely you risk leaving yourself in a worse position by trying to ensure you can do 3 OM's a turn to kill a flyer, 3 hull points on flyers?

I'm not sure if I see an ideal answer, nothing really garauntees to get the job done. Possibly better to ignore them if they are running say 2 and just be prepared to deal with the troops that jump onto an objective in turn 5?

L0rdF1end wrote:[
Mass of Psykers
I don't really see this as a solution either. Your going to poor all of your Pyskers powers into getting OM?
Surely some of the other powers are useful for buffs and such from Biomancy, Surely you risk leaving yourself in a worse position by trying to ensure you can do 3 OM's a turn to kill a flyer, 3 hull points on flyers?

I'm not sure if I see an ideal answer, nothing really garauntees to get the job done. Possibly better to ignore them if they are running say 2 and just be prepared to deal with the troops that jump onto an objective in turn 5?

The psykers all going TK would be an issue if:
1) The psykers were only good at being psykers.
2) The other TK powers sucked.
3) If I had to make the choice about what tables I was going to roll on before I knew what I was facing.

The only psyker that is only good as a psyker is the Zoantrope. Biomancy helps the others be more killy in CC. Chances are that Biomancy will not help if there are more than 1 flyer in the other army. Thats becasue the units you probbably REALLY need to kill are in those flyers and you can't kill them while they are flying around. It doesn't matter how many units your Flyrant kills if they are not the ones sitting on objectives. If you can't threaten the flyers they will just zoom off the board till turn 4 and then drop thier units. And then it doesn't matter if the flyer lives or dies for the next few turns as it long as those units live (unless its one of the missions where count as scoring). If I can kill one flyer a turn it presures them to drop thier troops earlier and give me more time to kill them. They can't risk the chance at losing 300pt+ for the flyer and the unit in it.

Necrons are becoming famous for zipping of the board and then late in the game plopping down big units of warriors on objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and for the record I have killed close to 900pts in one turn with 3 OMs (and one lucky shooting attack). If they go flyer heavy then you go TK heavy. I actully need to add 2 more psykers to my list to get more powers. (1 more Broodlord and 1 more Tervigon).

Thanks for the advice Gloomfang.

So TK for flyer heavy it is.

hmm what do I have in my list atm.

2x Flyrant = 4
4x Zoanthrope =8
1x Doom = 1
1x Tervigon with no additional powers. = 1

Total = 14

whats the aim roughly?

3x OM for 2 flyers?
4+ OM for 4 flyers and up?

I guess you have Flyrant devoures and vector strikes to fall back on also.

Lastly, what does "A strength 1 hit" with haywire special rule, actually mean?

L0rdF1end wrote:Thanks for the advice Gloomfang.

So TK for flyer heavy it is.

hmm what do I have in my list atm.

2x Flyrant = 4
4x Zoanthrope =8
1x Doom = 1
1x Tervigon with no additional powers. = 1

Total = 14

whats the aim roughly?

3x OM for 2 flyers?
4+ OM for 4 flyers and up?

I guess you have Flyrant devoures and vector strikes to fall back on also.

I try for 3 at a minimum. Keep in mind you don't want to go to crazy. Once you get 3 OM you can always roll on something else for the psykers you have left. I generally start with my Swarmlord, then my Zoans, then tervigons and finally my broodlords (that way if I think I have I would consider keeping Cataclysm on the Doom or give him Shriek. Him having OM is not as good and he needs to do wounds to power up.

Im a little confused over the sentance in OM though.

It reads "A strength 1 hit" with haywire special rule.

that says to me you still have to roll to penertrate with a STR of 1.
doesnt make sense because that won't pen anything...

confused :(

L0rdF1end wrote:Im a little confused over the sentance in OM though.

It reads "A strength 1 hit" with haywire special rule.

that says to me you still have to roll to penertrate with a STR of 1.
doesnt make sense because that won't pen anything...

confused :(

It is a Haywire attack. Look up the table. Basicaly 2+ to glance and pen on a 6.

yeah i got that, why even mention strength and a value.

"A hit with Haywire" would make more sense.

Its in case you hit something that isn't a vehicle, or a Str value is needed for some reason. In which case its Str1.

Thanks Grey, understood now

2x Flyrant = 4 - These I would rather keep as Biomancy to buff the Tyrants with ideally Iron Arm and Endurance.

4x Zoanthrope =8 - If Flyer heavy - swap out for chances to get OM.

1x Doom = 1 - Worth the swap to try for OM. Although if I pick up enough OM with Zoeys i'd probably go Biomancy just for the chance of Iron Arm which pretty much makes him immortal.

1x Tervigon with no additional powers. = 1 - Again will try for OM again if I haven't secured enough with the Zoey's. Ideally rolling on Biomancy for that Warp Speed chance as my Tervigon has Crushing Claws also for the increased amount of Smash attacks that we still seem to be debating in another thread.

L0rdF1end wrote:Thanks Grey, understood now

2x Flyrant = 4 - These I would rather keep as Biomancy to buff the Tyrants with ideally Iron Arm and Endurance.

4x Zoanthrope =8 - If Flyer heavy - swap out for chances to get OM.

1x Doom = 1 - Worth the swap to try for OM. Although if I pick up enough OM with Zoeys i'd probably go Biomancy just for the chance of Iron Arm which pretty much makes him immortal.

1x Tervigon with no additional powers. = 1 - Again will try for OM again if I haven't secured enough with the Zoey's. Ideally rolling on Biomancy for that Warp Speed chance as my Tervigon has Crushing Claws also for the increased amount of Smash attacks that we still seem to be debating in another thread.

I still think that you should take all 3 powers on the Tervigon in either case. Give you better odds on getting Warp Speed if that is what you want.

Also if you see a lot of flyers you should still roll on TK for the flyrants. As I pointed out before the buffs do nothing for Vector Strike and it doesn't matter if they live if the opponents flyers are still flying around.

With each game you have to say "What do I need my Flyrant to kill?" Then take the disciple that has the best chance to aid in that objective.

Sure, thanks again Gloomfang.

You are right, note to self, don't be stubborn and use the dicipline required to get the job done against the army you are facing.

Just ensure order of preference as we noted earlier.

L0rdF1end wrote:Sure, thanks again Gloomfang.

You are right, note to self, don't be stubborn and use the dicipline required to get the job done against the army you are facing.

Just ensure order of preference as we noted earlier.

It is a hard thing to do as people tend to come up with tactics prior to the game and it is hard to think outside the box sometimes.

I will say that it helps a lot with psykers.

The second game I played against IG was blob squads (same poor guy who had the flyer list). I took Telepathy for one of my rolls on everyone but the Broodlords and Biomancy for all the other rolls.

Then I defaulted to Psykic Shriek on the 4 other psykers. The devistation was massive. Tabled by turn 3. The stealers with broodlords ripped up the few pieces of mech and I targeted all the things that gave leadership bonuses to the troops. (Note: If you take Deathleaper and they have a Commissar with Aura of Command use "Its after me" on him. It forces every unit within 6" to use his lower Ld.)

One thing to consider with Psychic powers is that you choose what powers to use right before the game. You are not required to mark down which Disciplines you will be using.

So in a way you can tailor your psykers to the enemy army.


You also don't need to declare which discipline everyone is rolling on before you roll any powers.

You can roll on the desired chart till you get the power you want and then switch to another chart for other stuff with your other psykers.



So you are facing a couple Flyers. You roll for your first 2 level 1 psykers. One gets OM, the other gets Invisibility. Now you roll for your Hive Tyrant. His first roll gives him OM. now for his second roll(because 2 OMs is enough to counter the Flyers) you roll on Biomancy, and for the rest of your psykers you also roll on Biomancy.

Oh.. you know what. I thought you had to roll all your powers for each physker under one dicipline. I didn't even realise you could swap to say Biomancy after rolling OM in TK on your first roll.

L0rdF1end wrote:Oh.. you know what. I thought you had to roll all your powers for each physker under one dicipline. I didn't even realise you could swap to say Biomancy after rolling OM in TK on your first roll.

That is not quite right. You can point to the model and say " I am rolling once on TK and once on Biomancy." Then you roll to see what he gets. Then you can go to the next model and say "I am rolling twice on TK" and see what you get.

You state the tables that you are rolling on and how many times per psyker one at a time.

But you can take the Swarmlord and take 2 rolls on TK, 1 roll on Biomancy and 1 roll on Telepathy.

Gloomfang wrote:

L0rdF1end wrote:Oh.. you know what. I thought you had to roll all your powers for each physker under one dicipline. I didn't even realise you could swap to say Biomancy after rolling OM in TK on your first roll.

That is not quite right. You can point to the model and say " I am rolling once on TK and once on Biomancy." Then you roll to see what he gets. Then you can go to the next model and say "I am rolling twice on TK" and see what you get.

You state the tables that you are rolling on and how many times per psyker one at a time.

But you can take the Swarmlord and take 2 rolls on TK, 1 roll on Biomancy and 1 roll on Telepathy.

you sure about that? I was sure it says it is only 1 table to roll on.

Positive. It is clearly spelled out in the Tyranid FAQ.

Second page: "Tyranids generate a new power from the TK, Biomancy or Telepathy disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed."

Gloomfang wrote:Positive. It is clearly spelled out in the Tyranid FAQ.

Second page: "Tyranids generate a new power from the TK, Biomancy or Telepathy disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed."

But where in the rules does it say you must declare how many rolls per discipline you must make? The way i'm remembering (my BRB is at home) is that you roll powers one at a time, on any table - there's no need to declare beforehand how many powers you're rolling from each. So you can, in effect, try to get OM before flipping back to Biomancy if possible.

Also you re-roll any warp charges you can't cast, so anyone but the swarm lord who rolls hallucination or invisibility or the other warp charge 2 power would re-roll that result.

tetrisphreak wrote:But where in the rules does it say you must declare how many rolls per discipline you must make? The way i'm remembering (my BRB is at home) is that you roll powers one at a time, on any table - there's no need to declare beforehand how many powers you're rolling from each. So you can, in effect, try to get OM before flipping back to Biomancy if possible.
.

I don't have it on me at work today either, but it is not spelled out either way in the FAQ. It is possible I misread the BRB. I will have to check.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic
disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the
chosen psychic discipline"

"Note that second and
subsequent psychic powers do not have to be generated from the same
psychic discipline as the Psyker's first power."

You roll for the powers one at a time.

Groovy, ty Fallen

I seem to have the worse luck, ok, I have a very small game sample at the moment.

I played IG last night, pretty standard list, 3 Vendettas, Chimera's with plasma and melta dudes, 2 Hydra's + Manti.

I got shafted mainly by lack of cover and not going first. Over about 10 roles i managed to secure 3 O.M's.
To be honest, after a few turns I think I would of been better off ignoring the vendetta's and sticking with lance on the Zoans to nuke his tanks.

I only managed to knock off a few hull points. I'm still not convinced with relying on phychic powers for flyers.

I did though have a rather bad game, lost my Warlord turn 1 to the Manticore + Chimera. (good hits and bad rolls).
He rolled strtegic and got -1 to my reserves.
I got to reroll my reserves but I was still coming in on a 4+ after that.
So I ended up tabled bottom of turn 4 as my stuff came down in dribs and drabs.

To be honest, I played the game pretty bad too, I rushed for his Manitcore when perhaps I should of stayed back and spread out until my turn 2 when back up arrives.