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I was glancing over the rules and noticed something peculiar, page 96 of the ork codex for Mad Dok Grotsnik, says "Any unit in an army including Grotsnike may upgrade its members to have cybork bodies +5 points per model. " Now this is where the questions arouse.
1. If you ally with an army can you give them cybork bodies ? (the FAQ does not state anything about this IIRC )
2. If this is true can you upgrade a vehicle with this? Now I know that last one sounds to be frank incredibly ridiculous, looking a bit more it says unit, not specifying the unit type. Now in the rulebook, on page 3 it states "A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster is also considered to be a unit in its own right." So if in the Ork codex it says I can give any unit a cybork body, can I then make a tank get a cybork body due to the fact that a tank is a unit?
Clearance would be so much needed for this Even if this is a little cheesy for intents and purposes I am pretty much looking for RAW.

I would think the fact that Cybork Body doesn't show up in the vehicle armory would mean that they are unable to acquire said item. There's also this entry in the FAQ:

Q. How many units in an army with Mad Dok Grotsnik can be upgraded to have cybork bodies? Are there any restrictions (apart from non-vehicle) or can it even be Gretchin or Independent Characters? (p59)

A> Any number of units can be upgraded. This includes Gretchin and Independent Characters (except for unique characters), effectively giving them a 5pt discount on the cybork body upgrade.

That at least infers that cybork bodies may not be taken by vehicle units, Grotsnik or no.


As to the first part of your sentence, currently there is some debate about that. RAW I believe the answer is yes. RAI? Probably not so much although considering we're talking about Ork, I wouldn't put it past GW to allow for some truly awe-inspiring conversion to take place for said army to be actualized.

The Ork Codex is clearly talking about units from the Ork Codex.

Your Primary and Secondary detachments are their own army within the overall "Army" list you take.

So no Cybork bodies for anyone except Ork units.

Your army can included an ally detachment, so it is part of your army.

And you can't target allies of convince or desperate allies with abilities...

Convince me a unit given cybork bodies is not a "target" of mad dok's abilities... Since orks have no battle brothers outside dredbash, discuss on if you think special abilities applying to units is being a 'target' or not. Pretty. Lear that you are not supposed to be using abilities on desperate allies and allies of convience.

That I think would be more RAI rather than RAW, also it states that "if you wish your army can include one allied detachment for each primary detachment in your army." Include as in be a part of your own army.

The fact that the Ork book refers to Army, it means Ork Army.

Context is everything in this case.

First of all... it's gotta be Ork units within the Ork codex that can take cybork...

However...

C'mon ya'll... how "Orky" is it that you can "borrow" your friends and cybork them w/o their approve.

I can easily see da mad dok makin' sum "improvements" on does squishy 'umies.

nkelsch wrote:And you can't target allies of convince or desperate allies with abilities...

Convince me a unit given cybork bodies is not a "target" of mad dok's abilities... Since orks have no battle brothers outside dredbash, discuss on if you think special abilities applying to units is being a 'target' or not. Pretty. Lear that you are not supposed to be using abilities on desperate allies and allies of convience.

Okay, it's not a target of Mad Dok's abilities. The actual page detailing Mad Dok Grotsnik, the page that lists and describes all his abilities (Codex Orks, page 59 for reference), isn't the page that grants the ability to take Cybork Bodies on units. That option is granted in the army list section (Codex Orks, page 96), in the same sort of box that allows a Warboss to take Nobz as troops. It never says "target", "friendly", "ork" or anything else which provides a limiter. The exact verbage is:

Da Big Dok:
Any unit in an army including Grotsnik may upgrade its members to have cybork bodies for +5 points per model.

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that the Ork book refers to Army, it means Ork Army.

Context is everything in this case.

See above. The context in terms of RAW is quite clear. "Any unit in an army including Grotsnik". Does your army include Grotsnik? That's the only question that needs an answer. Now, RAI, I agree it was probably not what they meant. But until an updated FAQ says otherwise, that would be RAW.

whembly wrote:First of all... it's gotta be Ork units within the Ork codex that can take cybork...

However...

C'mon ya'll... how "Orky" is it that you can "borrow" your friends and cybork them w/o their approve.

As I said in posts above, the rule itself makes no requirements other than having Grotsnik in the army.

And as I said in my first post, I could easily see GW allowing this one through for exactly the reason you state! The fluff of an army "enhanced" by Grotsnik. I mean, his fluff does mention rumors of him building an uber-ork from "borrowed" pieces...

edited to include page number cites.

That's nice. Your abilities don't target non battle brothers. Parsing what counts as targeting to get special abilities to work on allies of convinence or desperate allies isn't raw unless you can provide hard definitions of what targeted means which you can't.

Sure sounds like any unit who attempts to have cyborg bodies are under the influence of an allies special rules. Every unit in the army can be the target of the ability. Being chosen to be under the effect is being targeted.

I think it's agreed that vehicles can take it though, yes?

Spellbound wrote:I think it's agreed that vehicles can take it though, yes?

The FAQ said no vehicles in 5th, not sure why it would work in 6th when it didn't work in 5th.

Says in the FAQ it doesn't work on vehicles.

nkelsch wrote:That's nice. Your abilities don't target non battle brothers. Parsing what counts as targeting to get special abilities to work on allies of convinence or desperate allies isn't raw unless you can provide hard definitions of what targeted means which you can't.

Sure sounds like any unit who attempts to have cyborg bodies are under the influence of an allies special rules. Every unit in the army can be the target of the ability. Being chosen to be under the effect is being targeted.

I will ignore the fact that you are the one adding "target" to Da Big Dok, which says nothing of the sort. It makes "parsing what counts as targetting" irrelevant as there is no targetting.

Page 112: Desperate allies and Allies of Convenience. Could you please quote exactly which rule covers Da Big Dok? My book only specifically disallows:
Charging them
Shooting them
Targeting them with psychic powers
Placing templates or blast markers over them
Cannot be joined by ICs
Can not benefit from warlord traits

Perhaps I am just missing it?

Of course this is all predicated on the idea that Da Big Dok is a special rule of Grotsnik;it is not.

Let me give a parallel: I am running Zogwort in a game against a Space Marine army. Said SM army is using Bike squads as its only troops thanks to the CM being on a bike. Now the rule that allows SM bikes to be taken as troops is done in the exact same format as Da Big Dok: a blurb in the army list separated from the actual section labeled "Special Rules".

I turn that Space Marine Chapter Master into a Squig using Zogwort's curse. Zogwort's curse specifically states thay the model loses all special rules. By your ruling that things not under the "Special Rules" are still special rules, I would now automatically won as my opponent's list contains no troops and is thus illegal. Clearly, that is not meant to be the case.

You missed "abilities and so on" not just psychic powers.

Battle brothers only, which orks have none.

And it is a mad dok special ability. There is no army creation phase where abilities cease to be abilities.

The line that you are referring to under battle brothers says abilities and so on. The linea under desperate allies and alliea of convenience only specifically disallows psychic powers. They say nothing about other special rules or abilities ceasing to work for those types of allies.

Again: Da Big Dok is not listed in Grotsniks list of special rules. By your ruling anu character that altered the Force Org would lose that "power" and void the army list and game were he turned into a spawn, squig or simply killed. Do you honestly believe that to be the case?

BTW: Page 118 explicitly state that selecting an army to an agreed upon points value is part of a game. That is rather neither here nor there though.

Doesn't change a thing about Grotznik never targeting anything. Your allies can be affected by abilities or psychic powers that do no target. Most prominent example would be a psychic blast scattering onto them. Or a trukk being forced to use its Kaboom! ability right next to them.

nkelsch wrote:You missed "abilities and so on" not just psychic powers.

Battle brothers only, which orks have none.

And it is a mad dok special ability. There is no army creation phase where abilities cease to be abilities.

You are quoting the most general rule I have ever read. and its really just saying battle brothers are treated as friendly units. that's it. But what does "and so on" mean as far as a rule goes? When the first example is psychic powers, when are they used to target someone? during the game of course. so as its the first example its the most heavily weighted and clearly everything that follows is for in game purposes.

Mad dok gives you permission to modify any unit in your army. Are allies a part of your army? yes. Does a HQ and a troop choice count as units? yes. ergo the mad dok can upgrade em.

does the dok care if the unit is friendly or otherwise? nope. he gets permission to modify anyone in his army. A clear case of a specific codex rule trumping a general BRB rule.

The Mad Doc can only Cybork his own army.

Any secondary detachment from a different army can not benefit from his ability because the ability is in the Ork (Army) Codex, and not in any other (Army) Codex.

Incorrect. In 6th edition especially they have made it quite clear that while you havw primary and possibly secondary detachments as well as possiblg primary and secondary allied detachments all making up one army.

Incorrect. Each army book is an army within the larger "Army" of Primary and Secondary Detachments.

An Ork Army is still an Ork army even if it is the Primary or Secondary Detachment.

Things in the Ork Codex only have an effect on the Ork codex units.

DeathReaper wrote:The Mad Doc can only Cybork his own army.

Any secondary detachment from a different army can not benefit from his ability because the ability is in the Ork (Army) Codex, and not in any other (Army) Codex.

pg 108, choosing your army.
pg 109, allied detachments, your army can included
pg 118 fighting a battle, two armies must now test their mettle, (my army and your army.)
pg 121 deploy forces, places his entire army (primary and allies)
pg 122 VC, his entire army is wiped out.

Every reference to army refers to your army list, and everything on your list is your army. You are not fielding 2 separate armies, you are fielding 1 army.

The "Army" as referenced by the Ork Codex Clearly refers to The Ork units in an Ork Army.

It is a term used by all of the codexes that were made pre-6th ed to denote the codex to which they were referring..

DeathReaper wrote:The "Army" as referenced by the Ork Codex Clearly refers to The Ork units in an Ork Army.

It is a term used by all of the codexes that were made pre-6th ed to denote the codex to which they were referring..

That was then, this is now. Now the orks can be either the primary detachment, or an allied detachment, in your army. Until FAQ'd to say differently any unit in a army that includes the dok is fair game to upgrade.

This is a flawed logic path with major slippery slope implications. By this logic, a Grey Knights army could take Crowe, 6 minimal Purifier squads as troops, then a second detachment with a 25 point inquisitor HQ and another six purifier squads. I think we can all agree this would be ridiculous situation, and for the same reason as this Grotsnik interpretation.

When you field a second detachment, whether allied or not, it must stand legally on its own merits: It must follow its own force org, it must meet its own minimum requirements, and it must abide by its own army's codex. Is an allied army with an upgrade from a different codex legal? No. Is a Grotsnik-free ork army with that upgrade legal? No. Therefore, detachments taking advantage of this upgrade without being part of the same detachment as Grotsnik do not form legal armies, and therefore are not legal detachments.




You can either interpret it in its simplest reductive form (you do not have explicit permission to spread Grotsnik's love around, therefore cannot do so.), or you can be TFG and go through loopy psuedo-logic to allow it and open the door for massive ridiculosity in other lists. Honestly, who wants to see 12 purifier squads, or Burna Boyz with Vulcan twinlinking, or any of the other illogical armies rendered possible by unrestricted interpretations like this?

Tuagh wrote:This is a flawed logic path with major slippery slope implications. By this logic, a Grey Knights army could take Crowe, 6 minimal Purifier squads as troops, then a second detachment with a 25 point inquisitor HQ and another six purifier squads. I think we can all agree this would be ridiculous situation, and for the same reason as this Grotsnik interpretation.

When you field a second detachment, whether allied or not, it must stand legally on its own merits: It must follow its own force org, it must meet its own minimum requirements, and it must abide by its own army's codex. Is an allied army with an upgrade from a different codex legal? No. Is a Grotsnik-free ork army with that upgrade legal? No. Therefore, detachments taking advantage of this upgrade without being part of the same detachment as Grotsnik do not form legal armies, and therefore are not legal detachments.




You can either interpret it in its simplest reductive form (you do not have explicit permission to spread Grotsnik's love around, therefore cannot do so.), or you can be TFG and go through loopy psuedo-logic to allow it and open the door for massive ridiculosity in other lists. Honestly, who wants to see 12 purifier squads, or Burna Boyz with Vulcan twinlinking, or any of the other illogical armies rendered possible by unrestricted interpretations like this?

You can not ally with the same codex as your main army codex is.

Also, Vulkan was FAQ:d to only work on C:SM units.

Mad Doc was not FAQ:d, so using him to give +5 invul to allies is perfectly legal.

sirlynchmob wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The "Army" as referenced by the Ork Codex Clearly refers to The Ork units in an Ork Army.

It is a term used by all of the codexes that were made pre-6th ed to denote the codex to which they were referring..

That was then, this is now. Now the orks can be either the primary detachment, or an allied detachment, in your army. Until FAQ'd to say differently any unit in a army that includes the dok is fair game to upgrade.

No they are not.

Look at the context of the Ork Codex, and the Mad Doc's entry.

It will be clear that the Mad Doc's entry is talking about the Ork Army.

So it is not legal.

Polecat wrote:You can not ally with the same codex as your main army codex is.

But at 2000 points you get a second detachment out of the same codex as your primary detachment.

So this is correct:

Tuagh wrote:This is a flawed logic path with major slippery slope implications. By this logic, a Grey Knights army could take Crowe, 6 minimal Purifier squads as troops, then a second detachment with a 25 point inquisitor HQ and another six purifier squads. I think we can all agree this would be ridiculous situation, and for the same reason as this Grotsnik interpretation.

DeathReaper wrote:
But at 2000 points you get a second detachment out of the same codex as your primary detachment.

So this is correct:

Tuagh wrote:This is a flawed logic path with major slippery slope implications. By this logic, a Grey Knights army could take Crowe, 6 minimal Purifier squads as troops, then a second detachment with a 25 point inquisitor HQ and another six purifier squads. I think we can all agree this would be ridiculous situation, and for the same reason as this Grotsnik interpretation.

And both are legal, what you can do with 2 FOC's is what you can do with 2 FOC's. so 12 purifier squads are legit. Just like the orks could put up 16 battle wagons, or 18 killa kans, 12 mobs of boys for 360 boys or my favorite 90 lootas . Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean its illegal. RAW points to the dok being a valid and legal thing to do.

Tuagh wrote:
When you field a second detachment, whether allied or not, it must stand legally on its own merits: It must follow its own force org, it must meet its own minimum requirements, and it must abide by its own army's codex. Is an allied army with an upgrade from a different codex legal? No. Is a Grotsnik-free ork army with that upgrade legal? No. Therefore, detachments taking advantage of this upgrade without being part of the same detachment as Grotsnik do not form legal armies, and therefore are not legal detachments.

and when looking at battle brothers and the horribly general statement of "and so on" depending on the upgrade it could very well apply to allied units. With a catch all like that in the rules, just about anything you can imagine between battle brothers is legal. and the Dok most definitely gives permission to upgrade any unit in his army. I myself have no intention of doing "the DOK" until after the FAQ for the BRB comes out. after its out, then they are most definitely fair game and legal things to do IMHO.

The OP has clearly not read his own codex or the rulebook, he is just trying to break the game with this new "permissive" ruleset.

May I also put dozer blades on my infantry squads to keep them from getting stuck in difficult terrain? Doesn't say I can't...

sirlynchmob wrote: what you can do with 2 FOC's is what you can do with 2 FOC's. so 12 purifier squads are legit.

No it is not.

Since Coteaz is unique, you can not take him in both detachments, so Purifiers remain an elite in the second detachment.