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Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut




SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The OP has clearly not read his own codex or the rulebook, he is just trying to break the game with this new "permissive" ruleset.

May I also put dozer blades on my infantry squads to keep them from getting stuck in difficult terrain? Doesn't say I can't...



You are given permission to give cybork bodies to your units if your army includes Grotsnik.

There are no confilcting rules here. If Grotsnik is in, you can give out cybork bodies to any unit in your army. Allies are part of your army.

Even if its ridiculous doesnt mean that its illegal.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






However, Orks have no battle brothers. Allies of convenience or less may not share special abilities. Re-read the allies section.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Polecat wrote:You are given permission to give cybork bodies to your units if your army includes Grotsnik.

There are no confilcting rules here. If Grotsnik is in, you can give out cybork bodies to any unit in your army. Allies are part of your army.

Even if its ridiculous doesnt mean that its illegal.

The fact that the Ork Codex refers to the units in that codex as the Ork Army makes it Illegal.

You can not ignore the context of the Ork Codex.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut




SoloFalcon1138 wrote:However, Orks have no battle brothers. Allies of convenience or less may not share special abilities. Re-read the allies section.


I just finished re-reading allies section on page 112 and I found nothing saying that allies of convenience or less may not share special abilities. Could you point out where does it say that?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:
Polecat wrote:You are given permission to give cybork bodies to your units if your army includes Grotsnik.

There are no confilcting rules here. If Grotsnik is in, you can give out cybork bodies to any unit in your army. Allies are part of your army.

Even if its ridiculous doesnt mean that its illegal.

The fact that the Ork Codex refers to the units in that codex as the Ork Army makes it Illegal.

You can not ignore the context of the Ork Codex.


The ork codex only refers to "an army including Grotsnik".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/01 19:24:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






DeathReaper wrote:Incorrect. Each army book is an army within the larger "Army" of Primary and Secondary Detachments.

An Ork Army is still an Ork army even if it is the Primary or Secondary Detachment.

Things in the Ork Codex only have an effect on the Ork codex units.

Cite the exact rule please. Because pages 108-110 repeatedly refer to detachments within an army, but never once refer to a single detachment as an army unto itself.


Tuagh wrote:This is a flawed logic path with major slippery slope implications. By this logic, a Grey Knights army could take Crowe, 6 minimal Purifier squads as troops, then a second detachment with a 25 point inquisitor HQ and another six purifier squads. I think we can all agree this would be ridiculous situation, and for the same reason as this Grotsnik interpretation.

When you field a second detachment, whether allied or not, it must stand legally on its own merits: It must follow its own force org, it must meet its own minimum requirements, and it must abide by its own army's codex. Is an allied army with an upgrade from a different codex legal? No. Is a Grotsnik-free ork army with that upgrade legal? No. Therefore, detachments taking advantage of this upgrade without being part of the same detachment as Grotsnik do not form legal armies, and therefore are not legal detachments.

You can either interpret it in its simplest reductive form (you do not have explicit permission to spread Grotsnik's love around, therefore cannot do so.), or you can be TFG and go through loopy psuedo-logic to allow it and open the door for massive ridiculosity in other lists. Honestly, who wants to see 12 purifier squads, or Burna Boyz with Vulcan twinlinking, or any of the other illogical armies rendered possible by unrestricted interpretations like this?

In regards to your purifier example, I believe that is in fact the exact intention. It allows for themed armies to continue to be viable all the way into higher point ranges. The section on "Bigger Games" (pg. 110) even comments that above 1,999 points it is the FoC itself that becomes the primary limiter.

There are several reasons allowing army wide special rules to carry over makes sense.

Example 1: I am fielding two primary detachments in my Sisters of Battle army. In one detachment, I take Jacobus, who allows me to reroll the number of Faith Points I receive for my army. If his special didn't apply to the whole army, it would basically cease to function. I wouldn't roll up faith points, then reroll using the second number for the detachment Jacobus is in, as that would give me 2d6 faith points instead of the usual 1d6.

Example 2: I am fielding two primary detachments of Salamanders, one led by Vulkan He'Stan himself. By his FAQ he effects any unit from Codex: Space Marines, regardless of detachment. The exact wording being "If you include Vulkan He'Stan in your army then all friendly units chosen from Codex: Space Marines lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers carried by friendly models from Codex: Space Marines gain the Master Crafted special rule and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas carried by friendly models from Codex: Space Marines have the Twin-Linked special rule." Here the wording mirrors Da Big Dok, except that Da Big Dok makes no specific mention, and was not FAQed to make any specific mention, of a particular army. Da Big Dok simply says "Any".

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:However, Orks have no battle brothers. Allies of convenience or less may not share special abilities. Re-read the allies section.


Rulebook page 112
Allies of Convenience

Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them. However, if a psychic power, scattering Blast weapon or other ability that affects an area hits some of these Allies of Convenience, they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units. This means that, for example, Allies of Convenience units:
  • Can't benefit from the Warlord Trait of an allied character.

  • Cannot be joined by allied Independent Characters

  • Are not counted as friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers.

  • Rulebook page 112
    Desperate Allies
    Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of Convenience. Furthermore, if your primary detachment is in a desperate alliance, units from that allied detachment are non-scoring, non-denial units. In addition, the One Eye Open special rule applies.
    ...

    Please quote where either of those sections prevents Da Big Dok from affecting that unit.

    BiA gives you permission to do A, B and C.
    Allies of Convenience denies the ability to do B and C but doesn't change A.
    Desperate Allies follows Allies of Convenience, but adds special rule D.

    You are trying to state that by removing B and C, A is also removed; it isn't.


    DeathReaper wrote:The fact that the Ork Codex refers to the units in that codex as the Ork Army makes it Illegal.

    You can not ignore the context of the Ork Codex.

    Cite please. I have quoted the exact wording of Da Big Dok previously in this thread. It's on the last page, so I will repost:

    Da Big Dok:
    Any unit in an army including Grotsnik may upgrade its members to have cybork bodies for +5 points per model.


    This is the final wording, as written, with no changes noted in the FAQ. Please cite where it refers to the Ork Codex at all.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/01 21:37:23


     
       
    Made in us
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    Chicago, IL

    streamdragon wrote:Cite the exact rule please. Because pages 108-110 repeatedly refer to detachments within an army, but never once refer to a single detachment as an army unto itself.

    Page 3 Ork Codex.

    Right Column. second Graph titled "Ork Army List"

    Also:

    Page 64. (makes numerous references to the Ork Army)

    Page 94 details the Ork Army List. and the left column, 1st graph says:

    "The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field an Ork Army and fight battles..."

    Same Page right column, 4th Graph:

    "Look in the relevant section of the army list and decide what unit you want to have in your army. How many models there will be in it, and which upgrades you want..."

    "Look at the relevant section of the army list" (The title of that page is Orks Army List).

    Taken in context tells us that an Ork army is contained within the Ork Codex, and you can choose any upgrades you want for the Ork army.

    Also Codex > BRB so the BRB definitions are trumped by the Codex definitions.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/02 06:15:34


    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
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    SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The OP has clearly not read his own codex or the rulebook, he is just trying to break the game with this new "permissive" ruleset.

    May I also put dozer blades on my infantry squads to keep them from getting stuck in difficult terrain? Doesn't say I can't...


    Mad dok does say I can put cybork on whatever I want, as long as its in my army. Explicit permission. Or are you arguing that I can't cybork boyz?

    The FAQ excludes named characters and vehicle, everything else is fair game.

    DeathReaper, you're really going out of your way to not quote a single rule. Maybe quote a source which actually fits your interpretation of "army"? Or would you also argue that the dread mob is not an ork army?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    DeathReaper wrote:
    streamdragon wrote:Cite the exact rule please. Because pages 108-110 repeatedly refer to detachments within an army, but never once refer to a single detachment as an army unto itself.

    Page 3 Ork Codex.

    Right Column. second Graph titled "Ork Army List"

    Also:

    Page 64. (makes numerous references to the Ork Army)

    Page 94 details the Ork Army List. and the left column, 1st graph says:

    "The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field an Ork Army and fight battles..."

    Same Page right column, 4th Graph:

    "Look in the relevant section of the army list and decide what unit you want to have in your army. How many models there will be in it, and which upgrades you want..."

    "Look at the relevant section of the army list" (The title of that page is Orks Army List).

    Taken in context tells us that an Ork army is contained within the Ork Codex, and you can choose any upgrades you want for the Ork army.

    Also Codex > BRB so the BRB definitions are trumped by the Codex definitions.


    Counterpoint: There are units for Codex: Ork outside of the Codex book. Ork bommers, for example.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Oh, and none of those quote actually say that your ork army can't have units not listed in the ork codex.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/08/02 06:54:43


    7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
    Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
    A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
    Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
    Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
    Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
    Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
    Orks do not have the power of believe. 
       
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    Chicago, IL

    Jidmah wrote:Counterpoint: There are units for Codex: Ork outside of the Codex book. Ork bommers, for example.

    Oh, and none of those quote actually say that your ork army can't have units not listed in the ork codex.


    But Alas this is a permissive Ruleset.

    It does not say I can't does not work.

    You have to find something giving permission to give Upgrades to anything other than the Army listed within.

    "Look in the relevant section of the army list and decide what unit you want to have in your army. How many models there will be in it, and which upgrades you want..."

    When they say "the army list" context tells us it is "the (Ork) army list"

    I have quoted rules, why do you think those are not rules?

    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
    Made in de
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    I have quoted rules, why do you think those are not rules?

    I was typing when you posted, just scratch that part.

    DeathReaper wrote:
    Jidmah wrote:Counterpoint: There are units for Codex: Ork outside of the Codex book. Ork bommers, for example.

    Oh, and none of those quote actually say that your ork army can't have units not listed in the ork codex.


    But Alas this is a permissive Ruleset.

    It does not say I can't does not work.

    I have permission to cybork every unit in my army. My army consists of a first detachment, a second detachment, an allied detachment and a fortification, as quoted multiple times.

    You have to find something giving permission to give Upgrades to anything other than the Army listed within.

    You still haven't shown that an army having a primary ork detachment and an allied imperial guard detachment is not an ork army.

    "Look in the relevant section of the army list and decide what unit you want to have in your army. How many models there will be in it, and which upgrades you want..."

    So you either claim that
    a) Allies are not part of your army
    or
    b) You may not use anything not in the back of your codex, including a second detachment, allies, fortifications, white dwarf updates and forge world rules.

    Either one is directly contradicting one or more rules, thus your argument is void, and an army is not limited to choices from your codex only.

    When they say "the army list" context tells us it is "the (Ork) army list"

    That's interpretation and irrelevant. Or are you claiming that allies are not part of my army list, even though ally rules state the opposite?

    "Army" is everything one player fields in a regular game of Warhammer40k. In 5th this was identical to "one FOC from one Codex". In 6th it isn't.

    You also dodged a very important question: Is a Dread Mob an ork army?

    7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
    Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
    A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
    Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
    Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
    Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
    Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
    Orks do not have the power of believe. 
       
    Made in ca
    Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta




    DeathReaper wrote:
    streamdragon wrote:Cite the exact rule please. Because pages 108-110 repeatedly refer to detachments within an army, but never once refer to a single detachment as an army unto itself.

    Page 3 Ork Codex.

    Right Column. second Graph titled "Ork Army List"

    Also:

    Page 64. (makes numerous references to the Ork Army)

    Page 94 details the Ork Army List. and the left column, 1st graph says:

    "The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field an Ork Army and fight battles..."

    Same Page right column, 4th Graph:

    "Look in the relevant section of the army list and decide what unit you want to have in your army. How many models there will be in it, and which upgrades you want..."

    "Look at the relevant section of the army list" (The title of that page is Orks Army List).

    Taken in context tells us that an Ork army is contained within the Ork Codex, and you can choose any upgrades you want for the Ork army.

    Also Codex > BRB so the BRB definitions are trumped by the Codex definitions.


    That was then, this is now:

    BRB:
    pg 108, choosing your army.
    pg 109, allied detachments, your army can included
    pg 118 fighting a battle, two armies must now test their mettle, (my army and your army.)
    pg 121 deploy forces, places his entire army (primary and allies)
    pg 122 VC, his entire army is wiped out.


    Your army is your primary and secondary attachments. Which is really anything on your list is your army.
    Mad dok can upgrade ANY unit in his army.
    I'm glad you agree that codex trumps BRB so you'll agree mad doks rule in the codex trumps a very general rule under the battle brothers right? Because he is using a rule, not an ability. pg 95 orks option 8, last line. Its the "da big dok" rule, not ability. So the line under battle brothers does not apply anyways.

     
       
    Made in us
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    Chicago, IL

    Jidmah wrote:I have permission to cybork every unit in my army. My army consists of a first detachment, a second detachment, an allied detachment and a fortification, as quoted multiple times.

    No you only have permission in the Ork Army to Cybork units in that army, as I have shown.
    You still haven't shown that an army having a primary ork detachment and an allied imperial guard detachment is not an ork army.

    Check the IG book, they reference an IG army. so you have an Ork army and an IG army on the field at the same time.
    So you either claim that
    a) Allies are not part of your army
    or
    b) You may not use anything not in the back of your codex, including a second detachment, allies, fortifications, white dwarf updates and forge world rules.

    Allies are a part of your army, but IG allies are not a part of your Ork army list. That is the difference you are missing.
    Deathreaper wrote:
    Jidmah wrote:When they say "the army list" context tells us it is "the (Ork) army list"

    That's interpretation and irrelevant. Or are you claiming that allies are not part of my army list, even though ally rules state the opposite?

    They are not a part of your Ork army list, but they are a part of your overall army list, subtle but important difference.
    "Army" is everything one player fields in a regular game of Warhammer40k. In 5th this was identical to "one FOC from one Codex". In 6th it isn't.

    You also dodged a very important question: Is a Dread Mob an ork army?

    "Army" is also the primary detachment, and the secondary detachment those are both an "Army" within the larger "Army" list. That is why this issue is confusing.

    What is a Dread Mob? i am not familiar with it.
    sirlynchmob wrote:I'm glad you agree that codex trumps BRB so you'll agree mad doks rule in the codex trumps a very general rule under the battle brothers right? Because he is using a rule, not an ability. pg 95 orks option 8, last line. Its the "da big dok" rule, not ability. So the line under battle brothers does not apply anyways.

    Which does not matter, since Mad dok can only Cybork units in an (Ork) army including mad doc. The IG allied army does not include Mad doc, so you can not Cybork them.

    I have shown that army, taken in context in the Ork book, means Ork Army, and not the General "Army" that 6th ed has produced.

    I am also glad you agree that codex trumps BRB. so the Mad Doc Codex Rule Trumps the BRB's definition of army, and things in the ork codex only apply to the ork army detachment.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/02 16:38:15


    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
    Made in ca
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    DeathReaper wrote:
    "Army" is also the primary detachment, and the secondary detachment those are both an "Army" within the larger "Army" list. That is why this issue is confusing.

    What is a Dread Mob? i am not familiar with it.
    sirlynchmob wrote:I'm glad you agree that codex trumps BRB so you'll agree mad doks rule in the codex trumps a very general rule under the battle brothers right? Because he is using a rule, not an ability. pg 95 orks option 8, last line. Its the "da big dok" rule, not ability. So the line under battle brothers does not apply anyways.

    Which does not matter, since Mad dok can only Cybork units in an (Ork) army including mad doc. The IG allied army does not include Mad doc, so you can not Cybork them.

    I have shown that army, taken in context in the Ork book, means Ork Army, and not the General "Army" that 6th ed has produced.

    I am also glad you agree that codex trumps BRB. so the Mad Doc Codex Rule Trumps the BRB's definition of army, and things in the ork codex only apply to the ork army detachment.



    By those definitions then, if you still have a G weapon, you still need to guess for ranges right? and should I wipe out your allied "army" then I win as your entire allied army is gone. The army definition is crystal clear in 6th. There are no rules implied or stated that leads to concluded you are running two separate armies. You have two detachments, and just the one army. So in the context of 6th edition, you have one army, with an ork detachment and a allied detachment.

    the dread mob are orks from forge world? or Apocalypse?, not in the codex, but they are orks.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 17:06:41


     
       
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    Chicago, IL

    sirlynchmob wrote:By those definitions then, if you still have a G weapon, you still need to guess for ranges right?.

    Not if you know what the FAQ's are.

    The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 17:51:50


    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    Cite please.

    Because page 109 says:
    Rulebook page 109
    Primary Detachment
    This section of the Force Organisation chart is reproduced in many codexes and is integral to building an army. It dictates the units you can take in the main body of your army.

    Underline emphasis mine. The primary detachment may be the main body of your army, but it in no way shape or form is the entirity of it. You are thinking in 5ththe edition terms while the game has moved on to 6ththe edition. The entirety of the "Force Organisation Chart" section on page 109 gives you the updated schema for an army.
       
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    London, England, Holy Terra

    I would say that you could interpret it either way, and that it's neither fluffy nor worth the arguments you'll have to actually do it.

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    Made in us
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    The maddest of ork doks replacing limbs with cyber upgrades, very likely against their will, does not strike you as fluffy? Have you read Mad Dok Grotsnik's fluff? He used to put bombs in the heads of nobz without their knowledge and os rumored to be creating a franken-ork from "donated" body parts..
       
    Made in gb
    Terrifying Wraith




    London, England, Holy Terra

    Well, alright, you'd probably get less arguments if you modeled them to look "experimented on". But the point still stands, particularly if you're just adding one unrelated army to your Orks.

    Pirate Vampire Counts - WIP
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    State of Jefferson

    Vehicles cannot have cybork.

    Allies cannot have cybork unless it is an Ork ally. RAW and RAI. I believe the FAQ would indicate "friendly units." And orks can really only get "friendly" (if that's what you call it) with other orks.

       
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    doktor_g wrote:Vehicles cannot have cybork.

    Allies cannot have cybork unless it is an Ork ally. RAW and RAI. I believe the FAQ would indicate "friendly units." And orks can really only get "friendly" (if that's what you call it) with other orks.



    1. Orks can not ally with orks as per the brb rule that no army can ally with itself.
    2. Da Big Dok does not need to say friendly. It specifically states "any unit in an army including Grotsnik".

    I do agree that vehicles can not have cybork bodies, as per the FAQ.
       
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    DeathReaper wrote:
    sirlynchmob wrote:By those definitions then, if you still have a G weapon, you still need to guess for ranges right?.

    Not if you know what the FAQ's are.

    The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army.


    sure I do, now look in the ork codex and find the entry for Lobba G48. Now look through the ork FAQ and find where that changed. *hint* it doesn't. Now look in the 6th ed BRB pg 415. By what you are trying to argue the lobba should still be a guess weapon.

    I also would like to see a reference where detachment = army.

    and yes this is extremely orky and fluffy. of course it works, because the orks believe it works

     
       
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    Chicago, IL

    The Ork Codex Calls the Ork Army List an "Ork Army" and "Ork Army List" throughout the book

    The Other Codexes call their respective lists "Army" as well.

    Check the Ork Codex pages I listed and do not ignore the context of what you are reading.

    If you do this then you will see that "The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army."

    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
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    Oceanside, CA

    DeathReaper wrote:The Mad Doc can only Cybork his own army.

    Any secondary detachment from a different army can not benefit from his ability because the ability is in the Ork (Army) Codex, and not in any other (Army) Codex.


    Ah, so I should roll twice for warlord abilities, once for each army?
    And roll twice to go first, since I have to armies?

    -Matt


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    DeathReaper wrote:The Ork Codex Calls the Ork Army List an "Ork Army" and "Ork Army List" throughout the book

    The Other Codexes call their respective lists "Army" as well.

    Check the Ork Codex pages I listed and do not ignore the context of what you are reading.

    If you do this then you will see that "The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army."


    If your using previous rulesets as a point of reference, then you'll have to subtract 1 from your armor pen roll for every 10" you are away from the target. Don't worry about that though, I've got some 2nd edition pulsa rockets headed toward you right now.
    Oh wait, this is 6th edition, and previous text from previous basic rule books means nothing.

    -Matt

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/03 04:00:06


     thedarkavenger wrote:

    So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
     
       
    Made in de
    Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






    DeathReaper wrote:The Ork Codex Calls the Ork Army List an "Ork Army" and "Ork Army List" throughout the book

    The Other Codexes call their respective lists "Army" as well.

    Check the Ork Codex pages I listed and do not ignore the context of what you are reading.

    If you do this then you will see that "The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army."


    Grotznik is not limited to an ork army or an ork army list. You argument is irrelevant. A unit of guardsmen in an allied detachment of my army is part of an army that contains mad doc grotznik. Any unit in an army containing mad doc grotznik may have cybork bodies. Any further limitations are made up by you and not part of the rules in question.

    A dread mob is a FW army list from Imperial Armor 8, focusing on the mek theme (spanna boyz, mega dreads, grot tanks, etc). They can ally with Codex: Orks as battle brothers. Are those orks?

    7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
    Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
    A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
    Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
    Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
    Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
    Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
    Orks do not have the power of believe. 
       
    Made in us
    Captain of the Forlorn Hope





    Chicago, IL

    HawaiiMatt wrote:
    DeathReaper wrote:The Mad Doc can only Cybork his own army.

    Any secondary detachment from a different army can not benefit from his ability because the ability is in the Ork (Army) Codex, and not in any other (Army) Codex.

    Ah, so I should roll twice for warlord abilities, once for each army?
    And roll twice to go first, since I have to armies?

    -Matt


    1) If you have two warlords, then yes.
    2) The Player seizes the Initiative, not the army...
    HawaiiMatt wrote:
    DeathReaper wrote:The Ork Codex Calls the Ork Army List an "Ork Army" and "Ork Army List" throughout the book

    The Other Codexes call their respective lists "Army" as well.

    Check the Ork Codex pages I listed and do not ignore the context of what you are reading.

    If you do this then you will see that "The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army."

    If your using previous rulesets as a point of reference, then you'll have to subtract 1 from your armor pen roll for every 10" you are away from the target. Don't worry about that though, I've got some 2nd edition pulsa rockets headed toward you right now.
    Oh wait, this is 6th edition, and previous text from previous basic rule books means nothing.

    -Matt

    I am using currect Codexes for reference, not the 5th ed ruleset. Learn the Difference.
    Jidmah wrote:Grotznik is not limited to an ork army or an ork army list.

    Yes he is, unless you are saying that you can take him in an Imperial Guard Army...
    You think army means Primary detachment and any secondary detachments, and in the BRB for 6th that is correct.

    However Grotsnick and the Ork Codes thinks Army means the Ork Army List you create from the Ork Codex.

    Codex Trumps BRB since they conflict.
    Jidmah wrote:A dread mob is a FW army list from Imperial Armor 8, focusing on the mek theme (spanna boyz, mega dreads, grot tanks, etc). They can ally with Codex: Orks as battle brothers. Are those orks?

    I do not know, I do not have IA8

    Does the IA8 book and the dread mob make reference to the Ork Codex?

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/08/03 08:15:20


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    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    DeathReaper wrote:The Ork Codex Calls the Ork Army List an "Ork Army" and "Ork Army List" throughout the book

    The Other Codexes call their respective lists "Army" as well.

    Check the Ork Codex pages I listed and do not ignore the context of what you are reading.

    If you do this then you will see that "The detachment definition in 6th is Synonymous with the 5th ed definition of Army."


    Again, read the rules starting on page 109. It covers why old codexes refer inside to that "army" and replaces it with Primary Detachment. I'm not going to quote the whole section.
       
    Made in de
    Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






    DeathReaper wrote:Yes he is, unless you are saying that you can take him in an Imperial Guard Army...
    You think army means Primary detachment and any secondary detachments, and in the BRB for 6th that is correct.

    So we both agree that all detachment make up an army.

    However Grotsnick and the Ork Codes thinks Army means the Ork Army List you create from the Ork Codex.

    Not one rule you quoted actually excludes models, units or rules from other sources than the ork army list.

    Codex Trumps BRB since they conflict.

    Unless I'm mistaken, every codex up till now pretty much has the same page as the ork codex.
    So if Codex would trump BRB in this case, all fortifications, allies, and secondary detachments are illegal to play. Is this what you are saying?
    If not, why are you allowed to field more than one army? The BRB explicitly tells you what your army consists of.

    Jidmah wrote:A dread mob is a FW army list from Imperial Armor 8, focusing on the mek theme (spanna boyz, mega dreads, grot tanks, etc). They can ally with Codex: Orks as battle brothers. Are those orks?

    I do not know, I do not have IA8

    Does the IA8 book and the dread mob make reference to the Ork Codex?

    The dread mob has a dread mob army list. It has unique choices and some choices which are also found in Codex: Orks, some in different slots and/or with different options (lootaz are heavy support, burnaz can take dedicated scrap trukks). Pretty much exactly just like harlequins or daemon princes are found in two armies, with slightly different rules. Like all FW publications, it does not contain any rules which are found in GW publications, like rules for burnaz or deff rollas. It's clearly an army consisting of orks, but by your arbitrary definition of the word "army", they wouldn't be.

    7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
    Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
    A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
    Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
    Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
    Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
    Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
    Orks do not have the power of believe. 
       
    Made in fi
    Regular Dakkanaut




    On a somewhat related note:

    You can take Master of the Forge from C:SM as an ally to a GK force, and then take 6 psybolt AC dreads.

    The wording is the same as with Grotsnik, "If you include Master of the Forge in your army..."
       
    Made in de
    Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






    Sure, why not? It's not like Grey Knights couldn't have done it without allies at all anyways.

    7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
    Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
    A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
    Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
    Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
    Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
    Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
    Orks do not have the power of believe. 
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    As long as the ones from codex: Grey Knights are just called "Dreadnought" instead of "Grey Knight Dreadnought" or somesuch (no book on me) then I dont see why not.
       
    Made in us
    Decrepit Dakkanaut






    Springfield, VA

    Grey Knights can practically do that already (they have to use Venerable 'Noughts, though. Boo.).
       
     
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