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Hello fello dakkanauts (ites?) I have thought about this long and hard, but it has yet to be made clear for me. There are so many options as well as good choices that its simply too hard! I personally use Imotekh as warlord with zandrekh/obyron for dual courts and awesomeness. Please post your experiences and what combination has worked for you and why. If ANYONE has had any luck with szeras I would like to know, because the model is cool, but he seems really meh and I could get a scythe lord for his points

Right now I run an Overlord on a CCB with scythe and MSS. Also been having PHENOMENAL results with a Destroyer Lord with Orb, Scythe, Weave, and MSS in a unit of Praetorians with blades and casters.

Ive been running a Dlord(warlord) and zandrekh/obyron .Zandrekh really shines against Xenos but he seems to be a waste against GK and other marines .Ive been running Obyron and the Dlord in the same unit and they seem to work really well as bullet magnets

I run Imo and a DLord primarily, and have grown quite fond of both.

I've played around with the idea or running Illuminor with Anrakyr's buffed Tesla Immortals, or in a 20 blob with a Phaeron and Res orb, maybe a scythe lord. The key is you really want a unit that isn't affraid of getting into CC, or else you chance getting the +1 S and not being able to make use of it. So something like this:

10 Tesla Immortals
Illuminor
Anrakyr
Lord/MSS/Res Orb/WS

Night Scythe

Is kind of interesting. Regardless if you get T, S, or BS from Szeras, it will help solidify a decent unit that would have defensive grenades/counter attack/furious charge, and some extra punch from 5/7 Warscythe attacks, not too mention MSS. So imagine a scenario where this unit gets charged. 10 Tesla Ovewatch shots, and then they get +1 attack and the opponent does not. It's interesting.

Or this:
20 Warriors
Phaeron Overlord+toys
Illuminor
Chronotek or other, though if you buff up your Overlord I would recommend going with the Chrono.
Ghost Ark

Imagine the above with T5...just absolutely nasty.

As with everything else in the necrons its all about synergy with your list.

I love nemesor, so I make sure to get him into everylist. Which means the rest of the army is built around a synergy with him.

"As with everything else in the necrons its all about synergy with your list. "

This.

As for Szeras I think his strength is that he is the cheapest HQ that is still useful for his cost ( OL+WS is ok).
If you dont need a court and just need to fill your compulsory HQ slot he is not bad so long as there is a decent unit to buff.

Szeras is a shiny trap. Sure, 100 point isn't much, but you pay 100 points for a normally 45 points model thus it's 55 points just for his bonus ability that has a 33% chance of doing nothing.

In low point games, rather take a Destroyer Lord. Hell, even a regular OL with WS is better.

Not a very good shiny trap as nobody is going to fall for it.

I agree he is not worth 100pts for his abilities, that is why I say he is only worth it to fulfil the compulsory HQ slot. 100pts pays that tax while adding decent buffs.

I would take him over the OL if there was a big unit of warriors to buff, Dlord is better but costs more.

I think the generics Lords are the best

Normal lord can be kitted out with a CCB or a res orb and unlock a royal court, while the DLord is a murderous beatstick that makes wraiths super scary

kenshin620 wrote:I think the generics Lords are the best

Normal lord can be kitted out with a CCB or a res orb and unlock a royal court, while the DLord is a murderous beatstick that makes wraiths super scary

Indeed, these two Lords belong to the best HQ's in the game. Don't bother with all those special Necron HQ's.

Anrakyr and Obyron are the two best imo.

Veil of darkness is amazing and Obyron gets an even better version. Hes also very nicely costed for what he gets and now that you can assign attacks to a single target, he goes to 10 attacks almost every combat.

Anrakyr is just utility. Tachyon arrow, warscythe, and vehicle stealing. Also buffs up immortals which, while not huge, is a pretty nice buff to one of the best shooting units in the game (overall). Plus he has good stats himself.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Not a very good shiny trap as nobody is going to fall for it.

I agree he is not worth 100pts for his abilities, that is why I say he is only worth it to fulfil the compulsory HQ slot. 100pts pays that tax while adding decent buffs.

I would take him over the OL if there was a big unit of warriors to buff, Dlord is better but costs more.

Trap for the Necron player, not his enemy

Sigvatr wrote:Szeras is a shiny trap. Sure, 100 point isn't much, but you pay 100 points for a normally 45 points model thus it's 55 points just for his bonus ability that has a 33% chance of doing nothing.

In low point games, rather take a Destroyer Lord. Hell, even a regular OL with WS is better.

That's not entirely true. He gets an extra wound and extra attacks, so their is some value in that. Also, if you design a troop section that isn't afraid of CC, which is quite possible as I illustrated, then none of the rolls "do nothing". Unless you think 10 Tesla Immortals with S6 on the charge (Anrakyr) is weak...

So, if your consider Anrakyr or a 20 blob with Phaeron, he's definitely worth considering.

I take Szeras because I have exactly 100pts left over, an extra HQ slot open and the model looks very cool.

Nemesor has some neat abilities as you guys know. My two favorite are giving an Anihilation Barge Tank Hunters to just destroy a vehicle or giving the Monolith stealth for a 4+ jink save.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:Szeras is a shiny trap. Sure, 100 point isn't much, but you pay 100 points for a normally 45 points model thus it's 55 points just for his bonus ability that has a 33% chance of doing nothing.

In low point games, rather take a Destroyer Lord. Hell, even a regular OL with WS is better.

That's not entirely true. He gets an extra wound and extra attacks, so their is some value in that. Also, if you design a troop section that isn't afraid of CC, which is quite possible as I illustrated, then none of the rolls "do nothing". Unless you think 10 Tesla Immortals with S6 on the charge (Anrakyr) is weak...

Yes, I do. First of all, you just used two special characters to buff a single unit. Secondly, your troops attack at I2 which means they strike last vs. almost all enemies or strike first against enemies who do not care about non-AP attacks either. And lastly, attacking with 10 Tesla Immortals is far inferior to Overwatch with 10 Immortals. Especially because Szeras has fiery eyes and the enemy does not get any bonus from attacking anyway. Thus the +1 to S is a 33% chance to waste his special ability.

...not to mention that Szeras might have 4 attacks. Cool. With a Necron Warrior profile. Enemy is likely to challenge him anyway and Szeras immediately dies in any challenge unless your opponent rolls really bad.

Sigvatr wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:Szeras is a shiny trap. Sure, 100 point isn't much, but you pay 100 points for a normally 45 points model thus it's 55 points just for his bonus ability that has a 33% chance of doing nothing.

In low point games, rather take a Destroyer Lord. Hell, even a regular OL with WS is better.

That's not entirely true. He gets an extra wound and extra attacks, so their is some value in that. Also, if you design a troop section that isn't afraid of CC, which is quite possible as I illustrated, then none of the rolls "do nothing". Unless you think 10 Tesla Immortals with S6 on the charge (Anrakyr) is weak...

Yes, I do. First of all, you just used two special characters to buff a single unit. Secondly, your troops attack at I2 which means they strike last vs. almost all enemies or strike first against enemies who do not care about non-AP attacks either. And lastly, attacking with 10 Tesla Immortals is far inferior to Overwatch with 10 Immortals. Especially because Szeras has fiery eyes and the enemy does not get any bonus from attacking anyway. Thus the +1 to S is a 33% chance to waste his special ability.

...not to mention that Szeras might have 4 attacks. Cool. With a Necron Warrior profile. Enemy is likely to challenge him anyway and Szeras immediately dies in any challenge unless your opponent rolls really bad.

I knew what you meant by shiney trap. My point was that I didnt think anyone would feel the need to include him just for his abilities so he is not a good trap. Imotek is a brilliant example of a shiney trap.

The strenght bonus is the worst upgrade but it is not useless by any means. I see it as a defense against getting wiped in CC as a 15 warrior unit with defensive grenades and S5 is much more likely to hold its ground. It would also make it a good idea to assault orks if the oppertuity arose.

I probably wouldnt use him in a list that didnt have a large warrior unit unless I really didnt have points for anything better.

The bonus S does not really help against being swept...Necron Warriors will lose every fight (unless your enemy is really bad) due to their terrible initiative of 2.

I2 allows most enemies to strike first and thus reduce the number of potential returning attacks and what's worse, I2 means that if we do fail the LD test, we are extremely likely to get swept - even tin cans got I4 which means that we gotta roll 3(!) points more than the enemy to get away. Roll a 1? Swept. Roll a 2? Swept. Roll a 3? Swept. Roll a 4 => enemy needs a 2+ to sweep. Roll a 5 => enemy needs a 3+ to sweep. Roll a 6 => enemy needs a 4+ to sweep. Thus even if you are really lucky and roll a 6, you still have a 50% chance to be swept.

Warriors and Immortals alike *will* lose every melee fight (statistically of course, sometimes...hehe) and S5 does not help much. Not at all. T5 helps because it allows more of us to survive the initial attack in melee, but S5 is the offical "Too bad, that's 50 points down the drain, son!" option.

Partially agree with Imotekh. He needs to have a list that's tailored around him but if you got one, he's a good HQ.

Sigvatr wrote:The bonus S does not really help against being swept...Necron Warriors will lose every fight (unless your enemy is really bad) due to their terrible initiative of 2.

.

Sigh. No they wont loose every fight. I see that you do not easily fall victim to reason.

I said on average. I2 is a huge disadvantage in melee as (for the 3rd time) almost everyone else strikes first (or doesn't care for AP - attacks).

Do note that I said "unless your enemy is really bad". An enemy's not going to randomly choose a unit to assault other units, he will use his assault units to do so. Hell, even Tactical Marines are likely to easily kill your squad. You cannot sweep them anymore, they strike first, they have a better armor save...sure, Necrons might win a fight vs a squad of 10 Imperials. But a real melee battle? They'll get trampled to death.

Are Immortals any better? Yes. They also got a 3+ but also suffer from I2.

Especially with Tesla Immortals, you should *never* assault (exceptions may apply). Run away, keeping your enemies at 24'', shoot them and when they get assaulted, use Overwatch and pray for the dice god's blessing. Assaultung with them is a huge waste of their shooty potential.

Anyway, regarding the Szerdas issue again: a regular Overlord deals a better job, mostly because he allows for the purchase of a Royal Court. Especially at low points, mobility is key and a Veiltek can easily allow you to get an objective in the last turn and thus win or draw the game. Szeras has a 33% chance of being a points sink and is rather gimmicky.

Or, as usual, run a Destroyer Lord with 3-4 Wraiths at low point games.

Huh, so I1 must be even worse...guess those TH/SS termies everyone is talking about really suck.. That also must mean I5 beats almost anything, Kabalite Warriors must be one of the best CC units in the game...

Your making assumptions about I2 that are absolutely not backed up by reality (or statistics). I run an almost completely dedicated CC Necron list and I horribly roll other CC armies. Fact.


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...not to mention that Szeras might have 4 attacks. Cool. With a Necron Warrior profile. Enemy is likely to challenge him anyway and Szeras immediately dies in any challenge unless your opponent rolls really bad.

I would never, ever, ever run him without a strong CC character in the unit.


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First of all, you just used two special characters to buff a single unit.

And?


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Hell, even Tactical Marines are likely to easily kill your squad.

No...just no.


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Especially with Tesla Immortals, you should *never* assault (exceptions may apply). Run away, keeping your enemies at 24'', shoot them and when they get assaulted, use Overwatch and pray for the dice god's blessing. Assaultung with them is a huge waste of their shooty potential.

Not if between your assault turn and theirs you are likely to wipe out the unit. Then it just raises their damage potential, and keeps them from getting shot at. They have assault weapons for a reason. If your not assaulting many (not any, but many...) units that get within 12" of you your doing it wrong.


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Especially because Szeras has fiery eyes and the enemy does not get any bonus from attacking anyway. Thus the +1 to S is a 33% chance to waste his special ability.

Why would +1S be wasted if you get assaulted? It's not FC, it's still going to make your S5 and cause more wounds.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Huh, so I1 must be even worse...guess those TH/SS termies everyone is talking about really suck.. That also must mean I5 beats almost anything, Kabalite Warriors must be one of the best CC units in the game...

Bringing up Termies is quite irrelevant seeing that they have a +2/++3 and strike with S8 hammers

kenshin620 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Huh, so I1 must be even worse...guess those TH/SS termies everyone is talking about really suck.. That also must mean I5 beats almost anything, Kabalite Warriors must be one of the best CC units in the game...

Bringing up Termies is quite irrelevant seeing that they have a +2/++3 and strike with S8 hammers

No that's completely relevant, as it shows that Initiative is not the sole statistic in considering close combat prowess, as you clearly demonstrate in mentioning some of the other factors. Considering this entire discussion revolves around the viability of raising one of those factors (Strength), it is completely relevant.


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TH/SS Termies also don't have Assault Tesla weapons they can use to whittle down opponents and minimize Overwatch return fire, or Phaeroned Rapid Fire Weapons. All of these are factors to condiser when properly appraising a units close combat propensity, arbitrarily inflating Initiative as the end all and be all results is tragically silly comments like "Tactical would beat them".

If you have a lot of fliers immotekh might be nice to protect what little you have on the board longer than a single Solar Pulse. Fluff wise I love Anrakyr. And szeras may be a good cheap choice for allies. I had just 10 toughness 5 warriors with szeras take on 2 marine assault squads and win (lost 2 warriors in 2 rounds of combat. 5th edition tho)

ShadarLogoth wrote:Huh, so I1 must be even worse...guess those TH/SS termies everyone is talking about really suck.. That also must mean I5 beats almost anything, Kabalite Warriors must be one of the best CC units in the game...

Your making assumptions about I2 that are absolutely not backed up by reality (or statistics). I run an almost completely dedicated CC Necron list and I horribly roll other CC armies. Fact.
.

I will not continue the discussion until you read my entire post. I stated 3 times that I is not the only decisive factor. If you're not good at reading, fine, but willingly ignoring vital points is demonstrating poor discussion skills / behavior.

The unnamed characters are really the best point for point. A basic overlord comes in cheap and unlocks a royal court and for just a few points in upgrades he becomes a major threat to every model in the game MSS is a 50% failure on LD10 models. Ever seen a swarmlord off himself with his bone sabres? Priceless.

The D-lord now giving PE to everyone is super sexy. He is not limited to just hang with wraiths anymore. Instead I will often times sit him in a group of 20 warriors with the wraiths hanging near by. Let him augment their shooting for a turn or two and give them a beefy 2+ save then when something gets close he and the wraith buddy up to go wreck it. If this guy came with a royal court he would be hands down best character in the army if not in the game.

The named characters are all ultimately too expensive when compared to their unnamed counter parts.


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Sigvatr wrote:
Especially with Tesla Immortals, you should *never* assault (exceptions may apply). Run away, keeping your enemies at 24'', shoot them and when they get assaulted, use Overwatch and pray for the dice god's blessing. Assaultung with them is a huge waste of their shooty potential.

I understand the sentiment but realize the board does have an edge. If you are in a position to shoot then assault, that is the right move in nearly every scenario, especially if you have an MSS with them, it allows you to place your MSS which can be the difference between live and death of a unit.

Sigvatr wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Huh, so I1 must be even worse...guess those TH/SS termies everyone is talking about really suck.. That also must mean I5 beats almost anything, Kabalite Warriors must be one of the best CC units in the game...

Your making assumptions about I2 that are absolutely not backed up by reality (or statistics). I run an almost completely dedicated CC Necron list and I horribly roll other CC armies. Fact.
.

I will not continue the discussion until you read my entire post. I stated 3 times that I is not the only decisive factor. If you're not good at reading, fine, but willingly ignoring vital points is demonstrating poor discussion skills / behavior.

Sigvatr...I addressed multiple pieces of your post, I'm not entirely sure what makes you think I didn't address or read something. You stated that I2 was really bad, then went on to make some assumptions based on I2 being bad that simply weren't true. S5 FC/CA Tesla Immortals would be more then a match for most bog standard troops in CC. To suggest that they couldn't take out Tactical marines was just silly.

Taking it a step further, the two units I posted would be brutal in CC against just about any other troop selection I can think of besides Purgs, Palllies, maybe a large group of Genies. If you would like to contest this with some mathhammer I would be interesting to see what you might fine. But to cling to S5 being "worthless" when I know for a fact its not, requires some actual proof to validate that claim. I respect your opinion, its just simply misinformed on this particular subject.

You also mentioned I2 being an achilles when they lose assault and fail the leadership roll. Sure, that's absolutely true. But they have LD 10, and between your X times 2 S5 attacks, and the damage from a Warscythe lord(and MSS)+Anrakyr or Phaeron Overlord if the case may be, their quite simply aren't many things out there that your are afraid of losing CC too. And if you are, you can still backpedal them until you get to the point that you aren't, in which case the S5 will still be valuable. Again, to say its useless or worthless is simply not true.

What is an effective wargear combo for a generic Lord on CCB?

I

Warscythe, Weave, and MSS

That's what I use.

mmmBoBo wrote:Warscythe, Weave, and MSS

That's what I use.

I keep getting that same answer fom people. I guess I'll go with that.

Its a good setup, the Warscythe works on Sweep Attacks, and If you ever need to charge, you get impact hits, and then you can challenge. the MSS is phenomenal in CC and the Weave helps you stay alive.