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So to start my beef with Chaos Daemons is that it is an incredibly bland and uninspired rule book. The presentation just seems lazy as portions are just lifted from the fantasy version and no real thought was put into point values (every upgrade is divisible by 5). In a way the codex reminds me a lot of the 3rd edition’s Codex: Chaos Marines. In that the building blocks are all there for a fun and interesting codex but no real effort was put in to arrange the blocks into something that the codex can intrinsically call their own.

What I would like to accomplish with this fan project is to make Chaos Daemons in general competitive aside from Fate-Crusher and MC Horde, insert fluff back into the army, and to make Chaos Daemons distinct in that they are not Tyranids with invulnerable saves.

A few things in the document are just stubs at the moment as I play with ideas. I would like to hear from other Chaos Daemon players what their pros and cons are for the army as well. I play mono Slaanesh versus Green Tide Orks or Tyranids most often so my perspective of Chaos Daemons is more skewed to horde combat than more common MEQ.

So if you have a minute to give it a once over I would appreciate it. Any feedback, hates, or ideas would be appreciated. Not going to pull a Lynx People on you guys nothing you can say will be any worse than what my professors told me in college.

Seems pretty tame as far as Chaos fan content goes, I can't fault anything with it. I will miss the rending hammer of wrath attacks on my seekers, but I'll deal with it somehow.

For some reason or another, I like Daemons despite their unfortunate standpoint in the 40k Gaming Universe. They're 'meh' if you don't stick Fateweaver in your list. I've been playing Fateweaver for awhile now, and all I feel like I'm doing - and I KNOW that I'm doing - is rolling dice and hardly even thinking. I really don't care to do that anymore, so I decided to whip out my beloved Great Unclean One for tomorrows games. Nurgle may had been controversially 'nerfed' or 'buffed', but that is left to speculation I suppose. I love Nurgle, but I don't run mono Nurgle. I run a mix of all the Gods.

Alright, down to the conversation.

I'm praying that someone with a light hand and nimble fingers is getting a hold of the Daemon Codex for its 6th edition remake. It is a PROJECT, in my opinion. Over half of the things in there disappoint me, but I've long since grown accustom to them. However, my biggest peeves are the Praying to the Gods; why?!? I know it was meant for 'fluff' and 'fun', but it makes an already random army even more random. It really messes with an army list that has an uneven amount of units in it as well.

The Daemonic Assault...yeah, it'd be ridiculous if EVERYTHING could fall from the sky and assault after it deepstrikes. However, even then, perhaps certain units with Special Rule exceptions can bypass it, or a whole new makeover can allow some leniency toward the idea; if this is the case, I'd imagine Chaos Icons would become rather expensive or taken out altogether, as it eliminates the threat of mishaps, which could be the drawback. Or, perhaps, they scatter 3D6 instead of 2D6, etc.

Regarding that, is that Special Rule Hellmouth applicable with Daemons deepstriking, as I take it?

Options, options, options. If it is something they lack, it is options. There are practically NO sergeants/characters unless you stick a Herald in there - which I wouldn't see anyone doing in their right mind. Maybe apart from a Khorne Herald to soak firepower, but that is about it. Anything else...? +1 Strength. Fantastic. Icon...? Um, okay, kind of pricey, but some swear by it, others don't. Instrument of Chaos; guess it was put in there to make the Daemon player giggle when they tied with an opponent.

Daemons depend on dice rolls almost more than any other army; why...? Unless you are not using Icons, hope you don't scatter too far and mishap. When you land, hope you aren't shot to death with your 5++. Other armies have wargear and such to aid them, whilst Daemons rely solely on their saves; that may be the idea, but it still doesn't help the dice rolling dependence. I have to PRAY to the Dice Gods to allow enough models to live. It is pitiful when you have to rely on your Sv rolls to alter a game in your favor.

I actually have a separate topic about Greater Daemons, which I believe you had commented once or twice in before ntin. Regardless, I'm hoping for some profile changes. Personally, the Great Unclean One. Makes me cringe to look at that toughness of 6...

Without going further into my rantings, about your homebrewed version.

Immediately, it has more effort put into it. Additions and most importantly, 'Champions' and viable options; options that actually would help. I'd like to see Troop 'Sergeants' be able to take special weapons like other armies can, as why can they not? The higher you go in Chaos Daemon society, the more replete you are; for example, Papa Nurgle would be proud to award his Champion Plaguebearer with something special for the bountiful spreading of decay and diseases.

It's on a nice track, yes. It makes me think about what I'd change. Though, I happened to notice that while you lowered the Nurgling's point value...why not give them poisoned attacks? It'd make them a much more viable option, and they have a crummy WS anyway. Fantasy one's have Poisoned, but I'm aware that works significantly different than poison does in this one. It wouldn't make them ridiculous, but somewhat viable in CC.

That is what I have for the moment, but I'm sure more things will come to me!

chrisrawr wrote:Seems pretty tame as far as Chaos fan content goes, I can't fault anything with it. I will miss the rending hammer of wrath attacks on my seekers, but I'll deal with it somehow.

Seekers do not receive Rending on Hammer of Wrath?

CleverAntics wrote:For some reason or another, I like Daemons despite their unfortunate standpoint in the 40k Gaming Universe. They're 'meh' if you don't stick Fateweaver in your list. I've been playing Fateweaver for awhile now, and all I feel like I'm doing - and I KNOW that I'm doing - is rolling dice and hardly even thinking. I really don't care to do that anymore, so I decided to whip out my beloved Great Unclean One for tomorrows games. Nurgle may had been controversially 'nerfed' or 'buffed', but that is left to speculation I suppose. I love Nurgle, but I don't run mono Nurgle. I run a mix of all the Gods.

Alright, down to the conversation.

I'm praying that someone with a light hand and nimble fingers is getting a hold of the Daemon Codex for its 6th edition remake. It is a PROJECT, in my opinion. Over half of the things in there disappoint me, but I've long since grown accustom to them. However, my biggest peeves are the Praying to the Gods; why?!? I know it was meant for 'fluff' and 'fun', but it makes an already random army even more random. It really messes with an army list that has an uneven amount of units in it as well.

The Daemonic Assault...yeah, it'd be ridiculous if EVERYTHING could fall from the sky and assault after it deepstrikes. However, even then, perhaps certain units with Special Rule exceptions can bypass it, or a whole new makeover can allow some leniency toward the idea; if this is the case, I'd imagine Chaos Icons would become rather expensive or taken out altogether, as it eliminates the threat of mishaps, which could be the drawback. Or, perhaps, they scatter 3D6 instead of 2D6, etc.

Regarding that, is that Special Rule Hellmouth applicable with Daemons deepstriking, as I take it?

Options, options, options. If it is something they lack, it is options. There are practically NO sergeants/characters unless you stick a Herald in there - which I wouldn't see anyone doing in their right mind. Maybe apart from a Khorne Herald to soak firepower, but that is about it. Anything else...? +1 Strength. Fantastic. Icon...? Um, okay, kind of pricey, but some swear by it, others don't. Instrument of Chaos; guess it was put in there to make the Daemon player giggle when they tied with an opponent.

Daemons depend on dice rolls almost more than any other army; why...? Unless you are not using Icons, hope you don't scatter too far and mishap. When you land, hope you aren't shot to death with your 5++. Other armies have wargear and such to aid them, whilst Daemons rely solely on their saves; that may be the idea, but it still doesn't help the dice rolling dependence. I have to PRAY to the Dice Gods to allow enough models to live. It is pitiful when you have to rely on your Sv rolls to alter a game in your favor.

I actually have a separate topic about Greater Daemons, which I believe you had commented once or twice in before ntin. Regardless, I'm hoping for some profile changes. Personally, the Great Unclean One. Makes me cringe to look at that toughness of 6...

Without going further into my rantings, about your homebrewed version.

Immediately, it has more effort put into it. Additions and most importantly, 'Champions' and viable options; options that actually would help. I'd like to see Troop 'Sergeants' be able to take special weapons like other armies can, as why can they not? The higher you go in Chaos Daemon society, the more replete you are; for example, Papa Nurgle would be proud to award his Champion Plaguebearer with something special for the bountiful spreading of decay and diseases.

It's on a nice track, yes. It makes me think about what I'd change. Though, I happened to notice that while you lowered the Nurgling's point value...why not give them poisoned attacks? It'd make them a much more viable option, and they have a crummy WS anyway. Fantasy one's have Poisoned, but I'm aware that works significantly different than poison does in this one. It wouldn't make them ridiculous, but somewhat viable in CC.

That is what I have for the moment, but I'm sure more things will come to me!

Fateweaver is definitely a force multiplier for Chaos Daemons. I do not think there is any build that does not benefit from including Fateweaver, he is sort of like chaos bacon. It is unfortunate he is the glue that makes the codex competitive though.

I am hoping that Chaos Daemons will eventually get the Chaos Marine 3.5 treatment. Which I think was the pinnacle of codices of any edition

With Hellmouth I was trying to avoid that idle turn Chaos Daemons have on the turn they arrive. It also gives Chaos Daemons table initiative where starting on second turn a unit of Bloodletters can pop out and assault your Ork Lootas hiding behind cover. It lets Chaos Daemons be scary without giving excess stat lines or equipment. As well as big ticket close combat monsters that lack wings would have a chance to get into close combat before being shot apart. In practices I always hated my Keeper of Secrets has to hide behind a hill the turn he arrives so she is not blasted to pieces.

If you could link your thread would love to take a look at it. I may have seen it all ready I lurk these forums more than I make posts. Without seeing your thread though I always felt Greater Daemons are very unimpressive. I am still thinking of a good way to handle them but I would like to have more granularities between Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons.

Right now I am thinking heralds will be unit champions with a few less purchase options. I would like an immediately between a herald and greater daemon like you were saying but I think greater daemons need to be shifted up more to create a tiered system between herald/nascent greater daemon/greater daemon.

Definitely will expand on all the gift tables it is just a matter of thinking of good ideas I would like each patron to have roughly 10 gifts as well as a runic/daemon weapon for the big units.

For Nurglings I think poisoned attack is a little too much. They are supposed to be a tarpit unit not something to kill monstrous creatures. It also overlaps on the role of the Plaguebringers.

I never found playing Special Characters appealing in the first place, but when I heard of the 'reborn' Fateweaver, I had to try him. I did, and liked it. I liked that Daemons suddenly found themselves at top tier BECAUSE of Fateweaver. Then, at the same time, I loathed it. It is almost like a handicap button that sets me above others. I've already had one local player refuse to play me if I played Fateweaver again. Not that that discouraged his use now, but I'm just tired of it.

I personally never got to play the 3.5 edition of CSMs, but I looked at the Codex. Really liked the versatility and diversity; a lot of neat set-ups and everything. THAT was a good book revolving around options and builds. I have a feeling - depending on who it is that handles our codex - that it won't get that treatment, but at least improve them in every way, even if it is a little bit. Again, that depends solely on who has the codex. Kinda bummed it supposedly won't be until a whole year before I get to see what becomes of my Daemons...

Ah, I see. I believe most of the Lesser Daemon's stats are fine; Bloodletters are exceptional, Plaguebearers. I wouldn't change their stats, I believe they already represent 'exceptional' stats compared to all the other army's Troops and so forth. But, assaulting the turn you arrive, most will argue that is broken, as they haven't a chance to fire at them, and that Daemons sitting around for one turn was what 'balances' them. I actually find this method more viable in 6th, particularly when it is possible they could deny a charge if they erase enough models from Overwatch; unless you're gutsy and Deepstrike right next to them or something. Still, people cried "BROKEN!" For the 3.5 CSM Bloodletters...but then they were S5 and so forth, with 3+/5++.

To be honest, I STOPPED using the Keeper of Secrets this edition; Fleet kinda got nerfed depending on how you look at it. I suppose s/he has the potential to charge a long distance, but it is just that, chance. However, given the new edition, it seemed the only 'good' ones is the Bloodthrister and Lord of Change; and you can guess why...Flying MCs. We know the Bloodthirster is overpriced, and the LoC can easily be just that as well. But, enough of my rambling, here is the link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460050.page

Like I mention in there, as GDs, they SHOULD have exceptional or abnormal stats. The one that is the most horribly represented is the Great Unclean One, and that makes me cry. Lasguns of all things CAN HURT HIM!!? Really...? A Eldar Walking Stick ignores that AND Bolters? Hm...you'll see my rant in there, lol.

Oh yeah, I'd agree with that. I suppose you could substitute Heralds for 'Sergeants' in the Daemon Troop units. The only thing I ask for in return is a nice selection of options; not extensive, but interesting and efficient weapons/armor, etc. Like Fantasy. Yep, most of the Greater Daemons have stats that match Tyranid MCs and...to be quite frank, as you've said and I, these are GREAT DAEMONS, not Mediocre Daemons.

Yeah, I can tell you're in the midst of creating things here. I may have been a little inspired to think of stuff myself, lol.

Figured you say that about the Nurglings. I won't lie and say they aren't a good tarpit unit, because they are. EW, 3 wounds and the new Fearless rule...? Yes please! But I mean, I just found it strange they don't have poison considering all Nurgle does, but...I suppose it is for the sake of balance.

I know you are not finished, but do you plan on using this homebrewed codex of your's? As in games? Either way, I'm keen for ideas on GDs, as it appears that you've only created the Keeper of Secrets thus far; most keen for the Great Unclean One though.

For me special character wise all I have is the Masque. She is useful to bunch up enemy models for Soul Grinders’ Phlegm but that is about it since she cannot join any units. Once I played another Chaos Daemon player who was using Fateweaver, it is frustrating but for other armies he is easier to focus fire with ranged weapons.

I doubt we will see anything like CSM 3.5 again, the idea of customization died when the game turned over to 4th edition. The quality of writers and the freedom of writers to try new things have changed a lot since then as well.

The basic troop daemons stats are not bad but I think the point cost on Daemonettes, Nurglings, and Pink Horrors are a few points too high. It is a MEQ world and T3 is rough to play. Math wise the Plaguebearer is actually more resilient than a standard Space Marine.

With Hellmouth I think a wagon circle would be an excellent defense against Hellmouth daemon charges. Clever players could also spread out units to create a bigger foot print to deny entry points or force the Daemons to deep strike into terrain. It is a metashift for sure but it always seems the 40k internet crowd reacts poorly to any kind of change.

I have not had a chance to play a game of 6th yet but it does seem winged monstrous creatures are the “it” units now. If KoS would move like a beast it would be a little better, it needs the mobility boost.

I did lurk that thread but yeah Greater Daemons are in a weird spot. There is a “standard” MC stat line with the Wraithlord being the exception. I was thinking of maybe boosting them all up a toughness point (GUO being t8) or giving them all FNP & IWND. They are basically demi-gods and not bound by any real world rules, while a Tyranid Hive Tyrant is an evolutionary achievement it is still bound by real world physiology. Problem making them that durable is people will want to MC spam even further. I wonder something like a GD takes up 2 HQ slots?

Right now though I am more interested in making non MC options more attractive to branch out some more army builds.

Once I get something more polished probably will play test it with friends.

Currently this is the unit roster.

HQ:
Greater Daemons
Keeper of Secrets / Soul Lust
Greater Unclean One / Ku’Gath
Bloodthirster / Skarbrand
Lord of Change / Fateweaver

Nascent Daemons //In between of a herald and greater daemon
Handmaiden of Slaanesh
Augur of the Great Dance
Crimson Slaughterer
Architect of Eternity

Elite:
Fiends of Slaanesh /Will Lick Upgrade
Beasts of Nurgle
Bloodcrushers of Khorne /Champion Upgrade
Flamers of Tzeentch /Champion Upgrade

//Heralds are unit size 1 unless it is a mono list then they are 1-favored number
Heralds of Slaanesh (1-6, option to all take steeds) / Masque Upgrade
Heralds of Nurgles (1-7) / Epidemius Upgrade
Heralds of Khorne (1-8, option to all take juggernauts) / Skulltaker Upgrade
Heralds of Tzeentch (1-9, option to take discs) / Bluescribes Upgrade

Troops:
Daemonettes of Slaanesh /Champion Upgrade
Plaguebearers of Nurgle /Champion Upgrade
Bloodletters of Khorne /Champion Upgrade
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch /Champion Upgrade & Changling
Nurglings

Fast Attack:
Seekers of Slaanesh /Champion Upgrade
Rotflies of Nurgle /Champion Upgrade
Flesh Hounds of Khorne /Karanak Upgrade
Screamer of Tzeentch
Furies of Chaos /Mercy killed and removed, these guys have always sucked

Heavy Support:
Soul Grinder of Chaos //Has option for being marked
Daemon Prince //Point cost more in line with CSM version wings still expensive

//Each of the following is 0-1 unless playing unless playing the matching mono god army
Concubines of Slaanesh //Chaos Eldar
Plague Cauldron //Nurgle artillery
Charnel Hound //MC absorbs weapons when it kills
Eldritch Golem //Mini walkers meant to tarpit for mono Tzeentch

Fateweaver is pretty ridiculous...since you said you haven't played a game of 6th, Flying MCs are pretty much the "it" thing to take, and essentially makes the Keeper of Secrets and Great Unclean One nearly obsolete; but I'll still use 'ol Fatty, because I adore him.

Agreed.

I can agree with that. T3 with 5++ (or 4++ for Horrors) needs to allow more abundant models, and 14 pts isn't helping. Horrors, in my opinion, are exceptionally high. They can pump out a lot of shots and have the 4++, but 17 pts is a little overwhelming. Oh yeah, a Plaguebearer should be the most resilient troop in the game, and I'm sure they are.

I know they will do something with the Deepstriking for Daemons. The problem now is they don't have ANYTHING except for a Chaos Icon; however, they come in on a 3+, that helps, but still, I think they should have something else accessible.

If you are going competitive, yeah, play the Bloodthirster and Lord of Change. Especially the Lord of Change. You get hit on a 6 regardless, and then you have get wounded, etc. It made them exceptionally better, but they still are just not...satisfying, at least for me.

I hope to the good God that the new Codex writer will have the right mindset when he remakes the Greater Daemons. They are my favorite units besides Nurgle stuff. As you likely saw, I left the LoC and KoS as T6, although I may rethink that. The idea that a Lasgun can wound a GD doesn't sound very logical. I dunno. The trend seems to be that if GW wants something to sell, they'll make it good. With GDs getting plastic kits when they come out, I feel they will be a viable option and might grant us our wishes, or at least some. Hm, I believe FNP & IWND belongs to Nurgle specifically, but raising things up a T will probably help. That, or provide a Daemonic Gift or something that raises T. Such is the Fantasy way, for my GDs statlines - I made a statline a long time ago and wanted to rewrite the codex in my visage, but haven't got to it until now due to some inspiration - I compromise with them being high pts base; have an abnormal statline, have a high pts base. Makes sense to me, and it will discourage people from spamming them if they're so expensive.

Lol, I'm kind of the opposite. I like the MCs, so mine will be pampered, especially the Great Unclean One. I will try to keep it real though. Just don't know if I will really make a new unit from my mind or not like you have here.

Ah, now I know what you're saying. Wasn't sure at first what you were getting at with something in between the GDs and Heralds. So, the Heralds are essentially an Elite unit that can all take options, or just one designated model?

I found the 0-1 Units to be interesting. It certainly gives it a different feel, and they appear to be ranged units; which Daemons lack, particularly ranged anti-tank.

Before I forget, I noticed two things in your Codex. The Upgrade Will Licker for Fiends Special Ability/Rule gives them Fleet...which they already have? Don't know if you caught that or not. Also, Soul Lust is listed as 'Infantry' as Unit Type; I assume you mean MC, but if not, it has a MC statline and looks to be the Special Character KoS.

Just thought I'd mention those two things.

That is the tough part about buffing the Greater Daemons it needs to be done in a way to make Keeper of Secrets and Greater Unclean as attractive options compared to the flying, Bloodthirster and Lord of Change.

For Daemonettes it was a mix if they got better or worse, hull points let Daemonettes glance death vehicles easier but the fleet change limited their mobility. Pink Horrors got hit a little with the rapid fire changes the 18” range is not as solid as it was in 5th edition. Pink Horrors can definitely lay down some fire on overwatch though. For Nurgle units I think 6th helped with their FNP, they are no longer getting hurt on power weapons or AP values, when they lacked armor saves. Bloodletters did lose the ability to harm Sv 2 and the extra initiative on furious charge but I thought Bloodletters were a bargain already.

When the new Chaos Daemon codex comes along most likely the monstrous creature lists are going to be nerfed and will promote hordes. It is standard Games Workshop strategy to shuffle the army list to get you to buy new models. A long time ago in maybe a Chapter Approved thing there was a Thousand Son playtest where Rubric Marines were just strait up immune to attacks that where under a certain strength values, which I think was 3. It is kind of heavy handed though and big picture the majority of infantry ranged attacks are going to be strength 4.

Heralds will be sort of like a unit of Chaos Chosen or Ork Nobz, it will be a group of characters where you pick different options for each model.

The 0-1 limits on a number of units will be to sweeten the pot for mono-deity list play. You can still cherry pick units from each cult like before but the mono-list will be more viable filling in a few gaps but not all of them.

Thanks for pointing those out yeah that was a mistake on Soul Lust being an infantry. For some reason I thought the beast type lost “fleet” in 6th but I was wrong on that.

I've been working hard at picking back up on my homebrewed Daemon Codex. The fun thing is, my local gaming buddies wouldn't mind playing it; after some test playing of course. Things look different on paper, and I want to make sure I haven't tipped the scale in the Daemons favor from the abilities I've given them. Some things I'm not too sure on, things I think might be questionable as in the OP sense. I dunno. I feel that Daemons would have OP abilities, but are slapped with a hefty points sum or something else to balance it out.

I've written up the Four Greater Daemons and have amended a lot of units to change points and such. I think we can help each other here, suggest, point out and look things over from our homebrewed stuff. It has been immensely entertaining to come up with the Daemonic Gifts thus far. I can PM it over to you when I'm finished, get some feedback and such, along with play testing it as there are some things I am unsure about. I want to play Daemons as I am making them for pure entertainment, so I want to keep them 'beatable' for my opponents so it isn't just fun for me instead of for the both of us.

I think I may had helped the number with having the KoS and Great Unclean One an attractive option versus the other two, but I'm not sure. I went the 'abnormal statline, but base points are heavy' sort of deal. And that is without considering Daemonic Gifts and such you can give them.

With Fleet redone, I think Daemonettes should be cheaper; I dropped mine two points lower. The only Troop unit I raised was Bloodletters, that was it; everything else got a points drop. Aren't Horror shooting attacks Assault? In my experience, the new FnP seems to help the small guys, but it doesn't help the Great Unclean One. I played yesterday...and a Guardsmen squad shot my Keeper of Secrets off the table. GUARDSMEN!! With LASGUNS!! It was pitiful. Yeah, Bloodletters were particularly a bargain before 6th, and still are.

Oh God, I hope not. I love my Greater Daemons, and if they get nerfed...? I couldn't imagine them any worse than they are now. The only thing that makes them 'special' is their invulnerable save from other MCs, and I'd like for that to change in the next codex, and I hope it does. I remember seeing that in an old Codex, the Thousand Sons thing.

Ah, I understand now. I stuck mine in Elites like you did, as they had nowhere else to go. I had to create 'Lesser, Greater Daemons' if that makes sense. The HQs for me are all MCs, although I may give the option of taking a Squad of Heralds as an HQ slot or something. But anyway, the 'Lesser, Greater Daemons' are essentially considerably more cheaper, but worse statlines and such as compared to the Greater Daemons. You'll see when I PM it to you, if you like.

Ah, okay, I see now.

Sure. Fiends got better this edition, as they ignore Difficult Terrain and thus charge like pros and move 12" across the board like champs, lol.

Anyway, real insightful to be talking with another Daemon player. I'm sure that will become more in-depth as I share my stuff with you, and see what we can swap.

Would be happy to give feedback whenever you have something to present.

A concern with this new edition is the new metashift back to footsloggers and the overwatch on assaults. For their price comparable to MEQ the melee Chaos Daemons are missing out as they are not even making token pistol shots before a charge or as part of an over watch.

Playing against Chaos Daemons should be an experience that is chaotic, bloody, and intense. They should come at you from all sides and keeps your opponent off guard.

Updated the file to a newer version.