Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so I understand GW has Oligopoly and a large Fanbase and hence upping the price would kinda force us to keep buying...


But the thing is for a game/company to grow you should to grow your customer base.

I understand that there's inflation but even on an inflation rate of 10% per year which is really high, still doesn't justify them raising such a large amount...


I can't see how beginners would want to start this game considering even the basic set costs like $130+ battleforce price maybe the starter will be tad bit cheaper...

Then there's the paint, BRB, codices(well, there are other ways), it just adds up to a large amount for an entry to a hobby...

I just started 40k as well, luckily I have a ok paying job which allows me to afford these models but what about kids and teenagers?

I remember when I was a kid I wanted to play as well but the price tag then was very high.

For me it seems like it be nice to have more and more players to play with, more social activity and maybe more friends~

But it seems that GW is pushing away from this route...(not sure if I am correct or not)...


Also, there's coming a lot of competition in the next few years, if I am correct games like Horde, Warmachine are growing in numbers in terms of the people playing...

And it seems that their prices are cheaper in general, for a person who likes the WH40k or WHFB fluff then there's less of a choice, but for someone who just wants to do some wargaming GW doesn't seem like a good choice financially wise...


I am pretty sure a lot of you have noticed it and just curious why GW hasn't thought about this.

This might have sounded like a rant, but I'm just too confused as of why GW is doing this...

Maybe there's some economic principle that I don't understand?

Makutsu wrote:I am pretty sure a lot of you have noticed it and just curious why GW hasn't thought about this.

What leads you to believe that they haven't thought about it?

People have been complaining about GW's prices for at least 20 years now. But so long as periodically raising the prices doesn't reduce the amount of cash coming in (even if it reduces the actual number of sales, which seems to have been happening for the last few price rises) there is no particular reason for them to reassess their chosen business model, which is to price themselves at the top of the market to encourage the perception of quality through pricing.

Makutsu wrote:Ok, so I understand GW has Oligopoly and a large Fanbase and hence upping the price would kinda force us to keep buying...

This sentence doesn't make sense, you might want to look up that word that starts with an 'o'.

Even if they had a monopoly on tabletop games (which they don't), it still wouldn't force you to purchase anything as hobbies are optional expenses.

You're a few months too late with the GW price rant buddy.

To answer your question though, you hit it on the head yourself. They boost prices, people pay Is a never ending cycle.

In all seriousness though, the theory im backing is other competitors, GW raise price, people look for alt games (see above mentioned rant threads, often linked to a sudden influx of "hi im new" in the other subforums lol), so their sales go down because people realise they can have the hobby experience for cheaper/better system, so they raise prices more to compensate. This is balanced by the hardcore vets/oldschoolers still pumping money in, and by "little Timmy's" parents buying him the latest toy soldier to shut him up, till hes old enough to either acknowledge the price increases and find a new game, or carry on paying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snooggums wrote:

Makutsu wrote:Ok, so I understand GW has Oligopoly and a large Fanbase and hence upping the price would kinda force us to keep buying...

This sentence doesn't make sense, you might want to look up that word that starts with an 'o'.

Even if they had a monopoly on tabletop games (which they don't), it still wouldn't force you to purchase anything as hobbies are optional expenses.

Lol they have anything but a monopoly, they just seem to THINK they exist in a hobby vacuum where you give them money or you go without

There's no point wasting your time thinking about this.

If you don't like the prices, there are hundreds of other alternative games out there, a lot of which are a lot more affordable.

If you want to keep playing GW games, there are cheaper options for buying minis too.. £50 spent on Mantic will get you 100 dwarfs which can be used to make a 2000 point warhammer army, you can even make a chaos dwarf army with all the frills if you want at literally 4 to 10 times less per model than the cost of getting it from Forge World.

You only ever need to use GW models in GW stores and official tournaments, pretty much everywhere else lets you use whatever, especially if it is well-painted.

GW has the largest range of high-quality plastics on the market currently, which is the main reason why people still buy primarily from them.

I really don't understand what you are getting at.

When 10 skeletons were 99p people were complaining that is was too expensive.

The it's driving away the kids argument is lame and old.

The fact is there are plenty of other games you can play. There are plenty of other manufacturers you can use if you want to play GW games - and if you don't go to Warhammer World or play in their shops why wouldn't you?

Here you go granny suck this egg....

I feel like most other miniatures model for model aren't cheaper than GW, unless they are pretty low quality.

GW sells the purest crack... it costs more. I'm a crack head. They raise prices I do what I have to for my next fix.

It's all what your into. Over the 16 years or so I've tabled topped, I've bought into over ten miniature games. ALL of which flooded up except GW. Should of just burned that money. At this point its like an old friend that I've watched grow up.

What leads you to believe that they haven't thought about it?

People have been complaining about GW's prices for at least 20 years now. But so long as periodically raising the prices doesn't reduce the amount of cash coming in (even if it reduces the actual number of sales, which seems to have been happening for the last few price rises) there is no particular reason for them to reassess their chosen business model, which is to price themselves at the top of the market to encourage the perception of quality through pricing.

Well, I understand that it increasing price leads to same amoun of revenue but at a lower sales(optimally), but take for an example an online game say Wow. If they were to increases their subscription to $100 per month, obviously there will be a significant drop in player base and when it drops to a certain amount that the player base becomes obsolete then the game is done. Please correct me if you think my analogy is incorrect.

This sentence doesn't make sense, you might want to look up that word that starts with an 'o'.

Even if they had a monopoly on tabletop games (which they don't), it still wouldn't force you to purchase anything as hobbies are optional expenses.

Oligopoly means the majority of a certain market is dominated by a couple of companies. Not arguing on the term, I agree that it is optional and so is a lot of things. If I enjoy something I am hoping that more people can enjoy it as well.

There's no point wasting your time thinking about this.

If you don't like the prices, there are hundreds of other alternative games out there, a lot of which are a lot more affordable.

If you want to keep playing GW games, there are cheaper options for buying minis too.. £50 spent on Mantic will get you 100 dwarfs which can be used to make a 2000 point warhammer army, you can even make a chaos dwarf army with all the frills if you want at literally 4 to 10 times less per model than the cost of getting it from Forge World.

You only ever need to use GW models in GW stores and official tournaments, pretty much everywhere else lets you use whatever, especially if it is well-painted.

GW has the largest range of high-quality plastics on the market currently, which is the main reason why people still buy primarily from them.

Well, this is just an open discussion and there's a reason to discuss about it as people can opt to invest in a company and how the company works is one of the things used to analyze a company's value.

I can dislike the price but I like the 40k story that's one of reasons why some people are still in the game despite the prices.

They actually don't have the highest quality but they do have it best priced at the quality they are selling at.

2012/08/04 02:10:56 Subject: Don't understand GW Price increase...
I really don't understand what you are getting at.

When 10 skeletons were 99p people were complaining that is was too expensive.

The it's driving away the kids argument is lame and old.

The fact is there are plenty of other games you can play. There are plenty of other manufacturers you can use if you want to play GW games - and if you don't go to Warhammer World or play in their shops why wouldn't you?

Here you go granny suck this egg....

Not really complaining but more a so of not understanding their business model.

Yes, it may be old and "lame" but there still stands a truth to it.

Well, GW models aren't ugly and actually look quite good at least my DE army looks nice~ and using other models as "proxies" or substitutes would feel a notch down for me.

Hey, I don't really mind the prices, as a new player I have bought from second hand minis and discounted FLGSs only.

orkybenji wrote:I feel like most other miniatures model for model aren't cheaper than GW, unless they are pretty low quality.

Depends on the company, GW also arnt the best company around for the money either in qualiity

Makutsu wrote:

Well, I understand that it increasing price leads to same amoun of revenue but at a lower sales(optimally), but take for an example an online game say Wow. If they were to increases their subscription to $100 per month, obviously there will be a significant drop in player base and when it drops to a certain amount that the player base becomes obsolete then the game is done. Please correct me if you think my analogy is incorrect.

This is a really poor comparison simply due to scope. You can afford to charge only $15 a month when your player base is in the multiple millions.

.

They actually don't have the highest quality but they do have it best priced at the quality they are selling at.

Except they do have the Highest quality multi part Plastic miniatures on the market. You're simply wrong or blind if you think differently.

Not really complaining but more a so of not understanding their business model.

Their business model is to turn they largest profit of any miniature producing company. They are succeeding.

To me, the prices only stick in my craw when I see Ashag the Slaughterer, who isnt a particularly solid model anyways, get priced at $90. Thats fething nuts. I mean.......I could get some really nice fething shinies at FW for that price. Why they hell are they thinking. For me, its more that I dont want to see GW fall apart. I love the fluff of the game, and I like the way it plays out quite a bit too. And I definately appreciate the justice they've done to LoTR so far. And I think that like he said earlier, its becoming the point where a $15 fix, is now a $100 fix. And thats just.....unaccomidateable. Maybe a bit overstated. But $90 for ANY single model is nuts. Or worse, the $99 you have a fork out for 5 Blood Knights. That makes me feel terrible for the guys who play VC and might actually fancy running some of those buggers. And it almost makes me hope that my poor Bretonnians dont get a new codex, because I dont wanna have to pay $99 so I can get some crapcast Grail Knights that will probably have so many holes in them they would look like the slept with Nurgle. I understand the business model. But if they things you're raising your prices on are totally gak, and are despised by nearly EVERY gamer I can possibly think of.....then what the feth are they gonna do with themselves?

cincydooley wrote:

They actually don't have the highest quality but they do have it best priced at the quality they are selling at.

Except they do have the Highest quality multi part miniatures on the market. You're simply wrong or blind if you think differently.

Ah-ha, ah-hee, a-hoo-hoo. My sides. You're a riot, Cincy.

infinite_array wrote:

cincydooley wrote:

They actually don't have the highest quality but they do have it best priced at the quality they are selling at.

Except they do have the Highest quality multi part miniatures on the market. You're simply wrong or blind if you think differently.

Ah-ha, ah-hee, a-hoo-hoo. My sides. You're a riot, Cincy.

Do they not? Please, offer me another company that is making better ones.

Ann. I see the problem. Missing "plastic" in there.

This is a really poor comparison simply due to scope. You can afford to charge only $15 a month when your player base is in the multiple millions.

That's actually not a bad comparison, why do they have multiple millions of players? it's because of their price tag and their fluff as well.
If Wow were to increase their price tag to $100 they would have a smaller player base.
If GW were to lower their prices the amount of people would increase, how many people more would be unknown.

Except they do have the Highest quality multi part miniatures on the market. You're simply wrong or blind if you think differently.

Well, let's say raging heroes for an example, imo their models look waaay better than GW models, but at a higher price tag.
I'm pretty sure there are a quite a few out there as well with their insane price tag probably.
But GW probably does have highest quality and is cheapest out of them which I stated earlier.

Their business model is to turn they largest profit of any miniature producing company. They are succeeding.

ALL corporations goal is to increase shareholder's stock value, which the majority of it is profit.
A business model is different as it is HOW the company is ran and what strategy to use.
And for me their actions and strategy seems confusing.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:To me, the prices only stick in my craw when I see Ashag the Slaughterer, who isnt a particularly solid model anyways, get priced at $90. Thats fething nuts. I mean.......I could get some really nice fething shinies at FW for that price. Why they hell are they thinking. For me, its more that I dont want to see GW fall apart. I love the fluff of the game, and I like the way it plays out quite a bit too. And I definately appreciate the justice they've done to LoTR so far. And I think that like he said earlier, its becoming the point where a $15 fix, is now a $100 fix. And thats just.....unaccomidateable. Maybe a bit overstated. But $90 for ANY single model is nuts. Or worse, the $99 you have a fork out for 5 Blood Knights. That makes me feel terrible for the guys who play VC and might actually fancy running some of those buggers. And it almost makes me hope that my poor Bretonnians dont get a new codex, because I dont wanna have to pay $99 so I can get some crapcast Grail Knights that will probably have so many holes in them they would look like the slept with Nurgle. I understand the business model. But if they things you're raising your prices on are totally gak, and are despised by nearly EVERY gamer I can possibly think of.....then what the feth are they gonna do with themselves?

Agreed regarding Azhag, but the Blood Knights are an aberration. They've set a pretty clear precedent that any new troop type kit will be multi part plastic. See all the most recent fantasy releases: ogre mournfang. Empire Demi griffs. Etc

Makutsu wrote:If GW were to lower their prices the amount of people would increase, how many people more would be unknown.

They would also potentially have to increase their manufacturing capabilities. Managing your sales through your pricing structure is actually a fairly useful tactic for keeping your profits maximised at a point where you can still maintain sufficient production.

Forgeworld is a perfect example of this in miniature. They very deliberately price their models ridiculously high, in part to maintain an 'even more premium than the premium models sold by GW' image, and in part specifically so that they don't have to make as many of them as they would if their prices were lower.

They would also potentially have to increase their manufacturing capabilities. Managing your sales through your pricing structure is actually a fairly useful tactic for keeping your profits maximised at a point where you can still maintain sufficient production.

Forgeworld is a perfect example of this in miniature. They very deliberately price their models ridiculously high, in part to maintain an 'even more premium than the premium models sold by GW' image, and in part specifically so that they don't have to make as many of them as they would if their prices were lower.

That is a good point, never thought about that.

I don't know if Forgeworld is GWs or not, but if it is then it seems normal GW stuff is a low level line and Forgeworld is their higher tier of stuff.

I remember someone recently posted a link that showed GW has been losing roughly $3,000,000 every year for the past 3-4 years. If only I could find that stinkin link....

As another Canadian, might I recommend going with Miniature Market for your GW needs? They price using US MSRP which is way better than Canadian and have a discount and reasonable shipping charges. And I have never, ever been charged customs duty. They can't see through an online shopping cart because of GW's US policies, but their website has details about how to order via email.

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/table-top-miniatures/games-workshop.html

Might I also recommend continuing to look at alternatives. While some of GW's stuff has a very unique look, a lot of it is actually pretty generic fantasy or generic sci-fi/sci-fantasy.

A passable paint job and consistent basing/flocking goes a long way to make non-standard models from other companies look the part.

The goal of most companies and indeed the stated one of GW is sustainable growth combined with maintaining profitability: not maximising stock values or share payouts. The later are personal goals rather than corporate, of course the former do produce the later in the normal run of things.

@ king pariah, GW have been reporting profits to a lesser of greater extent for most of the last decade, we know this as they produce public reports for analysis by the market/shareholders.

What you are probably thinking of are some of the comparisons done between yearly results factoring in inflation. It is debatable as to the accuracy of these amateur calculations. What is certain is that the City like what they see of GW demonstrated by a number of long standing investors and a general upward trend on stock.

"Your understanding is not required, customer, merely your wallet."

King Pariah wrote:I remember someone recently posted a link that showed GW has been losing roughly $3,000,000 every year for the past 3-4 years. If only I could find that stinkin link....

If that were true, they would have gone out of business by now. Unless something has been audited by a third party, I won't put any value in someone else's opinion about GW's opportunity costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are really unhappy with GW, buy their shares up. You could put together the dakka/warseer alliance and get someone on their board. Its what the cost if a rhino for a share? You can have this board member give a report to both dakka and warseer (as long as anything he says isn't secret).You don't like the dividends they past out, get more people on the board to fight it.

The answer is simple ...find another game...there are many out there....and some of them blow my mind....like that egyptian war god game... some of those sculpts blow GW out of the water.

Bullockist wrote:The answer is simple ...find another game...there are many out there....and some of them blow my mind....like that egyptian war god game... some of those sculpts blow GW out of the water.

Heh. War gods is about the worst comparison to make if you want to complain about pricing. :-)

Its not a hobby if it doesn't cost something. Sure example: Warmachines is easier and cheaper to start. But Warhammer is Warhammer. Its company that has been doing this for 20 + years so they do know what they're doing. They got great network of resellers. Here I struggle finding decent priced Warmachines boxes and paints are extremely hard to get in here now that one shop that kept them in store dropped them.

The fact they got 7 million fines for using white metal that has some traces of lead and forced to do quick pace transition into Resine models doesn't help either.

R&D is not cheap either and frankly humans cost so much money for the company (and Orks cannot be trusted as workers and their artistic tendensies usually tend to differ from what humans consider artistic).

Everything costs something, even dying is not free (albeit its cost goes to your relatives)

notprop wrote:The goal of most companies and indeed the stated one of GW is sustainable growth combined with maintaining profitability: not maximising stock values or share payouts. The later are personal goals rather than corporate, of course the former do produce the later in the normal run of things.
.

From what I've read, the bottom line is share payouts. IIRC, the current Chairman of GW "Tom Kirby" owns a ton of stock and is the primary shareholder. Every time he ups prices, he takes a huge dividend. GW's MO for a long time has been to maximize dividends regardless of the real condition of the company. It's not really about long-term profitability, hobbyists or any of that gak. It's about nice payouts for the investors.

Read more about it here:
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/04/help-kirby-is-eating-our-hobby.html

It's bad for the hobby, but it's not a crazy as it seems. If things get really bad, Kirby and the other top stock owners will have already gotten a huge amount of $ via dividends. My guess (grain of salt here...) is that they know the company's IP is so valuable that in the worst case it can always be sold at breaking even or slight loss (still a large net gain after all those dividends) if they do manage to drive GW into the dust.

In the end the message is clear. If you like GW products bite the bullet and accept the price increases because at this point there is no reason to expect them to stop.

In the preamble of the 2011 report it was stated that anyone looking for a quick buck best look elsewhere as GW management was/is about long term growth not divided. I paraphrase but the sentiment is the same. Divided is however a natural consequence of owning stock and should not be suprisingly to anyone. Moaning about it smacks of entitlement and jealously that someone is making money from "my" hobby.

Oh dear that blog seems to have been written by someone that despite having all this information available has used it to come up with a conspiracy. The writer is clearly desperately niave of the sort of report he has read.

The chairman of a publically traded company owns 6.1% of the company he has been running for approximately two decades - the evil bastard!

The fact is any traded company that doesn't have a chairman/CEO that has put his cock on the block will not have much confidence in the stock. Secondly part of any renumeration will consist of stock options in lieu or addition of a bonus. This will be tied to his retention at the company, do no taking the stock and running. This also further motivates them to improving the company rather than resting on their laurels.

Another fact; Messers Kirby and Wells own less than 12% between them; GW is mostly owned by the investment arms of major UK pension funds. They are long term investors naturally interested in divided but also in long term stability, GW stock has this in spades.

So after 20 odd years of management and being the diver in the mamagent buyout Tom kirby owns a notable percentage - there is nothing surprising in this of indeed out of the ordinary.

The idea that analysts at half a dozen funds and various business publications have missed serious account manipulation but some blogger can work it out from selected lines in a public report is risible.

scarletsquig wrote:There's no point wasting your time thinking about this.

If you don't like the prices, there are hundreds of other alternative games out there, a lot of which are a lot more affordable.

If you want to keep playing GW games, there are cheaper options for buying minis too.. £50 spent on Mantic will get you 100 dwarfs which can be used to make a 2000 point warhammer army, you can even make a chaos dwarf army with all the frills if you want at literally 4 to 10 times less per model than the cost of getting it from Forge World.

You only ever need to use GW models in GW stores and official tournaments, pretty much everywhere else lets you use whatever, especially if it is well-painted.

GW has the largest range of high-quality plastics on the market currently, which is the main reason why people still buy primarily from them.

I second this, nothing rivals Mantic for quality miniatures:



So affordable and yet clearly superior to GW in every way!

I place only a little bit more stock in GW published optimistic statements as the observations of a biased blogger. This is after all the same company that switched to a cheaper material and then raised the prices.

Note that I didn't say thier practices were manipulation, or illegal, or even necessarily unethical. I just think that when folks say "why the price raises" they should know that the answer largely atribuitable to "giving the stockholders dividends'.