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Hi guys

Played a game today against a demon player with a host of flying MCs. He told me that if his MCs were in glide mode then I would only be able to snap fire against them with my hydra autocannons as he said they counted as jump infantry. Didn't question it at the time but had a look a bit later and think I was duped. The rulebook says under skyfire that 'a model with this special rule fires using its normal BS when shooting at ... flying monstrous creatures'. In the flying MC section it says that an MC in glide ' moves, runs and shoots exactly like a jump monstrous creature' . So I'm pretty sure that I get to use my full BS as the glide doesnt stop the flying MC from being a flying MC.

What is everyone else's interpretation of this?

While gliding it ISNT a flying monstrous creature.

nos, I disagree. A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature is still a FMC. Otherwise, one it Glides it must remain in that form for the rest of the game.

I think intent is that you can't Skyfire GFMCs, but RAW is that (for example) a Hive Tyrant with wings is a FMC, gliding or not.

Ok it seems a bit more controversial than I thought. The reason I ask is that I couldn't find anywhere that it says that a gliding monsterous creature stops being a flying MC. Also on the point of read as intended I would suggest that something gliding is still in the air so I might compare that to a skimmer (like a DE raider) which I still get to hit on normal BS. Perhaps we will see an FAQ soon

A gliding FMC is treated just like jump MC.

Dozer Blades wrote:A gliding FMC is treated just like jump MC.

No, it moves runs and charges like a jump MC. It is still a FMC.

Dozer Blades wrote:A gliding FMC is treated just like jump MC.

qft

60mm wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:A gliding FMC is treated just like jump MC.

qft

So a Gliding FMC must stay Gliding for the rest of the game, as jump MC do not have the ability to choose a flight mode? You learn something new everyday. Next you'll tell me that a Hovering Flyer is a Skimmer, not a Flyer.


This is the exact same argument regarding Hovering Flyers. A Hovering Flyer is still a Flyer. A Gliding FMC is still an FMC.

You have the Flyer argument a bit off Happy but the point remains.

The rule states "If a FMC is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump MC". It doesn't say to treat it as a JMC (as the rules on Flyer do) The same usage with Swooping, "If a FMC is Swooping, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump MC, with the following exceptions and clarifications. Again, nothing about treating it as a JMC. So either form, it is still a FMC :(

Given that, the Hydra can use full BS to shoot at it.

Happyjew wrote:
So a Gliding FMC must stay Gliding for the rest of the game, as jump MC do not have the ability to choose a flight mode? You learn something new everyday. Next you'll tell me that a Hovering Flyer is a Skimmer, not a Flyer.

A gliding FMC moves as a JMC, meaning it can go back to swooping. The Hard to Hit section on pg49 is where it is stated that swooping FMC can only be targeted at full BS by models with Skyfire, this is not under the gliding section at all. Sure, they didn't spell it out explicitly, just as many things in the BRB, but the intentions are obvious. Skyfire are meant to hit models acting as flyers. When a FMC is gliding it acts as a JMC. By your "logic" a FMC that chooses to walk on the ground can be targeted at full BS by a Hydra which is obvious rule bending. If an enemy decides to put his FMC in gliding mode to avoid your skyfire, your skyfire unit has still succeeded in dominating the airspace by forcing him down and denying his ability to Vector Strike and avoid groundfire. But by all means feel free to use try forcing your cheese in games until it gets FAQd.

Looks legal and entirely cheesy.

60mm wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
So a Gliding FMC must stay Gliding for the rest of the game, as jump MC do not have the ability to choose a flight mode? You learn something new everyday. Next you'll tell me that a Hovering Flyer is a Skimmer, not a Flyer.

A gliding FMC moves as a JMC, meaning it can go back to swooping. The Hard to Hit section on pg49 is where it is stated that swooping FMC can only be targeted at full BS by models with Skyfire, this is not under the gliding section at all. Sure, they didn't spell it out explicitly, just as many things in the BRB, but the intentions are obvious. Skyfire are meant to hit models acting as flyers. When a FMC is gliding it acts as a JMC. By your "logic" a FMC that chooses to walk on the ground can be targeted at full BS by a Hydra which is obvious rule bending. If an enemy decides to put his FMC in gliding mode to avoid your skyfire, your skyfire unit has still succeeded in dominating the airspace by forcing him down and denying his ability to Vector Strike and avoid groundfire. But by all means feel free to use try forcing your cheese in games until it gets FAQd.

I agree with this. It clear (to me at least) the intent of swooping is to be a flyer and gliding to be a jump move.

Flyers get to choose whether or not to fire with skyfire in each shooting phase. You should've been able to shoot anyways.

darickrp wrote:Flyers get to choose whether or not to fire with skyfire in each shooting phase. You should've been able to shoot anyways.

Hydras aren't flyers.

Happyjew wrote:nos, I disagree. A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature is still a FMC. Otherwise, one it Glides it must remain in that form for the rest of the game.

While this is a really poor strawman I disproved with Flyers with hover a few weeks back(hint in this case it is the rules under "Changing Flight Mode" on page 49)

Your later-in-this-thread assertion that Gliding FMC are not treated as Jump MCs is 100% correct. Gling FMCs are still 100% FMCs, they just move differently and do not have Hard to hit, Dive nor Grounded tests(all 3 require the FMC to have been swooping).

RAW: A Gliding FMC is not Swooping and therefore is not Hard to hit so therefore Skyfire(sans Interceptor) snapfires.

Kommis, that is RAI I'm sure, but that isn't RAW. The RAW does not address any of those issues other than the term FMC. Same with Flyers and Skimmers.

Ok well it seems pretty clear that RAW a hydra can use its full BS if it doesnt say anywhere that when gliding an MC stops being a flying MC. Also RAI I don't think it so clear cut, the move is called 'glide' not 'walk' which suggests it is still in the air, the benefit from glide isn't hiding from skyfire weapons it is being able to charge normally rather than having to do a vector strike

Fragile wrote:Kommis, that is RAI I'm sure, but that isn't RAW. The RAW does not address any of those issues other than the term FMC. Same with Flyers and Skimmers.

No it is exactly "as written".

Hard to hit: "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shotsunless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

Such a target refers to the Swopping FMC; if the FMC is gliding it is not swooping and therefore not Hard to Hit.

Dive: "If threatened a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can dive rapidly, throwing off the aim of the attacker."

Is a Gliding FMC Swooping? No it is Gliding Raw says Dive only works for Swooping.

Grounded Tests: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack, it must take a grounded test immediately after that Shooting attack has been resolved."

Is a Gliding FMC Swooping? No it is Gliding Raw says Grounded tests are only required for Swooping FMCs that are hit.

You cannot get anymore RAW than that; A Gliding FMC is not Hard to Hit, the Hydra can only Snap Shot.

I disagree with this. You haven't quoted the most important rule of all. Skyfire 'fires at normal BS when shooting at flyers, flying monsterous creatures and skimmers'. You haven't shown that by gliding it is not a FMC. The way I read it is this. A flying MC can glide or swoop but either way it is a flying MC. Skyfire lets a hydra shoot with its normal BS against flying MCs, whether they arer gliding or swooping is irrelevant it is still a flying MC. The hard to hit business doesn't come into it as skyfire doesn't say 'lets you hit targets that are otherwise hard to hit with normal BS'

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Fragile wrote:Kommis, that is RAI I'm sure, but that isn't RAW. The RAW does not address any of those issues other than the term FMC. Same with Flyers and Skimmers.

No it is exactly "as written".

Hard to hit: "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialized weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shotsunless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

Such a target refers to the Swopping FMC; if the FMC is gliding it is not swooping and therefore not Hard to Hit.

Dive: "If threatened a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can dive rapidly, throwing off the aim of the attacker."

Is a Gliding FMC Swooping? No it is Gliding Raw says Dive only works for Swooping.

Grounded Tests: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack, it must take a grounded test immediately after that Shooting attack has been resolved."

Is a Gliding FMC Swooping? No it is Gliding Raw says Grounded tests are only required for Swooping FMCs that are hit.

You cannot get anymore RAW than that; A Gliding FMC is not Hard to Hit, the Hydra can only Snap Shot.

But you seem to be avoiding the rule that actually matters, which is Skyfire (pg 42):

A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets."


Premise 1: A Hydra Autocannon is a weapon with the Skyfire special rule (rulebook summary).
Premise 2: A Flying Monstrous Creature is a Flying Monstrous Creature regardless of whether or not they are swooping or gliding (the gliding rules only says the model does certain things like a Jump Monstrous Creature, it does not say that the model ceases to be a Flying Monstrous Creature when it glides, page 49).

Conclusion: Therefore, when the Hydra Autocannon is fired at a Flying Monstrous Creature (gliding or Swooping) it uses the model's normal Ballistic Skill.

I am being disagreed with on an entirely misunderstood basis.

I see now what the problem is; 2 posts ago I mistyped a conclusion.

Kommissar Kel wrote:RAW: A Gliding FMC is not Swooping and therefore is not Hard to hit so therefore Skyfire(sans Interceptor) snapfires.

The above Was typed before bed and I wrote the exact opposite of what I meant.; A gliding FMC is not Swooping therefore not Hard to Hit, therefore Skyfire is not required to not Snapshot.

You are both correct Skyfire specifies a unit type that the FMC is one of(and Never, ever, ever changes); but that was not what I was trying to say. All I was trying to say is that many of the rules for a Swooping FMC are Swooping Only.

As far as the main topic goes, and assuming the Hydra does not move in the movement phase; All Shots, including the Hull Heavy Bolter can be resolved against a Gliding FMC at Full BS

i dont see it being a problem. if they are now gliding they are not subject to snapfire shots from regular infantry or other ground models as they are now jump infantry in all respects till they are swooping again. so while one battery of hydras cant fire full BS at them, the entire rest of your army can.

avoiding hydras is great and all, but doesnt mean much if the daemon prince dies to small arms fire because he failed enough wounds.

of course the orky shooting solution of high volumes of fire seems to be the best anti-everything atm.

If snapfire said they use their normal BS against Swooping FMC there would be no problem, however, it only says Flyers, Skmmers, and FMC. A Gliding FMC is still a FMC, even if you do not need to Snap Shot to hit it.

Hoping on an errata, in that case. RAW I can see you would fire at full effect, but not sure this is meant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hoping on an errata, in that case. RAW I can see you would fire at full effect, but not sure this is meant.

Why not? Skyfire weapons fire at full BS against regular Skimmers. Why would it not be meant for them to fire at regular FMCs that are Gliding?

Because a glide is a climb and stop on the ground - why they can be assaulted. By the time the hydra shoots the FMC is on the ground again.

Perhaps the Skyfire weapons shoot at them while they're gliding, not while they're on the ground.

In the opponents movement phase? Sure, if they have Interceptor...

Paitryn wrote:i dont see it being a problem. if they are now gliding they are not subject to snapfire shots from regular infantry or other ground models as they are now jump infantry in all respects till they are swooping again. so while one battery of hydras cant fire full BS at them, the entire rest of your army can.

avoiding hydras is great and all, but doesnt mean much if the daemon prince dies to small arms fire because he failed enough wounds.

The distinction actually turned out to be quite an important one. The difference between 8 autocannon shots at BS3 with a re-roll and 8 at BS1 with a re-roll is pretty big, and probably made the difference in allowing it to get into combat and savage one of my units, so amounted to a 2 kill point swing.

Guard have a lot of shooting, but there does always come a point where you run out. Its a very situational problem, but I certainly will not allow that player to pull that trick again