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We ran into this issue. When my seer council is charged can I overwatch my warlocks destructor.
I have been researching this issue at first I thought no I can't do it. Specifically because it was a technically a witchfire power. Then I did some more reading
Witchfire says that witchfire powers are also called Psychic Shooting Attacks. (p. 69)
Eldar FAQ " Q which Eldar Psychic Powers are eldar shooting attacks? A: Destructor, eldritch storm and mind war ( Though they include exceptions to the normal shooting rules included in there description)" (Eldar faq second page right side)
Other than that Destuctors rules remain unchanged.
Destructor: (fluff removed) Destructor is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. it is worked out like a normal shooting attack with the following profile : (insert heavy flamer profile here) (Codex: eldar p.2
that bold bit is key. it is resolved as if the warlock had 2 shooting attacks, one with the profile of a shurikin pistol and one S:5 AP:4 Assault 1 Template.
Overwatch states that it is worked out as a "Normal shooting attack" with the exception of only being able to take snap shots. (p. 21)
Wall of death says it applies to all template weapons. (p. 52)
So I think that because it is used like a normal shooting attack, and it requires no psychic test and requires no warp charges it can be used on overwatch.
In addition I have determined that it can not be stopped with deny the witch. Deny the witch is only used on powers which require a psychic test. (p. 67)
Thrawn2600 wrote:Witchfire says that witchfire powers are also called Psychic Shooting Attacks. (p. 69)
Eldar FAQ " Q which Eldar Psychic Powers are eldar shooting attacks? A: Destructor, eldritch storm and mind war ( Though they include exceptions to the normal shooting rules included in there description)" (Eldar faq second page right side)
Can you use witchfire on overwatch? I think not since the BRB states they are used in your shooting phase and doesnt give permission to use it in assult.
Also i do believe you get DTW! for Destructor, since the BRB says when a psychic test is passed and doesnt Destructor autopass without spending a warp token?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 03:34:55
No DTW for Destructor. It just happens. It is out of sequence for the required steps for Psychic Powers.
Also, the overwatch thing has been debated on this website.
People say that you cannot overwatch psychic powers because they are manifested in the shooting phase. Destructor doesn't required a psychic test, so it just happens (ala, just like a Flamer).
Think of it as Breath of Chaos (Flamers of Tzeentch).
EDIT: Stand by for "No overwatching Witchfires dakkadakka debate"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 03:43:10
1) Witchfire rules that clearly states: "Witchfire powers aer* manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."
*Misspelling left for the integrity of the quote.
The "instead of shooting a weapon bit does not grant an allowance to use them outside of the specific allotted phase.
and
2) The Destructor's rules clearly states: "Destructor is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."
So the specific Rules in the Eldar Codex still denies overwatch casting of destructor because it is not done during any "shooting phase".
To address your last bits: "Normal Shooting Attack" =/= "Shooting phase".
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Thrawn2600 wrote:Yup and the words for overwatch right out of the rule book is "Normal shooting attack"
Destuctor says it is fired just as a "Normal shooting attack"
That is the How it is used, the sentence before tells you when it gets used(shooting Phase)
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Pg 69. Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase. So unless you have a rule to allow your Psyker to manifest powers in enemy's turn, then no you can't overwatch psychic shooting.
"No DTW for Destructor. It just happens. It is out of sequence for the required steps for Psychic Powers.""
I do not think this is correct. If a power targets a unit it can be DTW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 03:54:39
Thrawn2600 wrote:Yup and the words for overwatch right out of the rule book is "Normal shooting attack"
Destuctor says it is fired just as a "Normal shooting attack"
That is the How it is used, the sentence before tells you when it gets used(shooting Phase)
Read Overwatch again. By that logic you can not shoot bolters. As they can only be shot in the shooting phase.
Quote
" Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one that is resolved in your enemies assault phase) " The instead of fireing a weapon means I can not shoot my destuctor and pistol. so it is not a shooting attack in addition to it is a shooting attack instead of.
Thrawn2600 wrote:Yup and the words for overwatch right out of the rule book is "Normal shooting attack"
Destuctor says it is fired just as a "Normal shooting attack"
From your own OP:
Eldar FAQ " Q which Eldar Psychic Powers are eldar shooting attacks? A: Destructor, eldritch storm and mind war ( Though they include exceptions to the normal shooting rules included in there description)" (Eldar faq second page right side)
Which makes Destructor a Psychic Shooting Attack, Which makes it Witchfire.
As for the steps for a psychic power
1. Expend Warp Charge
Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge. Replaced by Eldar FAQ: Warlocks don't need Warp Charge To Activate their powers.
2. Declare Target
If the psychic power requires a target, choose it now. This one applies
3.Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp,which is resolved immediately. This one is replaced by the Eldar Codex stating that Warlocks don't have to take a Psychic Test.
4. Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens. Steps 1-3 are followed. Go ahead and Roll that DtW!
5. Resolve Psychic Power
Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 03:56:32
Fragile wrote:Pg 69. Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase. So unless you have a rule to allow your Psyker to manifest powers in enemy's turn, then no you can't overwatch psychic shooting.
"No DTW for Destructor. It just happens. It is out of sequence for the required steps for Psychic Powers.""
I do not think this is correct. If a power targets a unit it can be DTW.
1. expend warp charge
2. declare target
3. take psychic test
4. Deny the witch
5. Resolve psychic Powers
those are the exact steps from the book. No warp charge and no psychic test means no deny the witch. deny the witch does not say you get it just for being targeted.
I think you misunderstand. it does not say warlocks auto pass it says they do not need to test at all. Just re read the FAQ its in there. It specifically says there powers are ALWAYS ON. not auto pass. destructor is a weapon, like wargear. just as enhance is just a unit buff, just as you can not swap them out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 04:01:12
Fragile wrote:Pg 69. Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase. So unless you have a rule to allow your Psyker to manifest powers in enemy's turn, then no you can't overwatch psychic shooting.
"No DTW for Destructor. It just happens. It is out of sequence for the required steps for Psychic Powers.""
I do not think this is correct. If a power targets a unit it can be DTW.
1. expend warp charge
2. declare target
3. take psychic test
4. Deny the witch
5. Resolve psychic Powers
those are the exact steps from the book. No warp charge and no psychic test means no deny the witch. deny the witch does not say you get it just for being targeted.
Pg 68. DTW. "IF a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic Test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the power is resolved."
So it does say you get it for being targeted. The only argument here is that "warlock didnt have to take a test". Which I dont see as holding water. An autopass is still a pass.
Fragile wrote:Pg 68. DTW. "IF a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic Test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the power is resolved."
So it does say you get it for being targeted. The only argument here is that "warlock didnt have to take a test". Which I dont see as holding water. An autopass is still a pass.
auto pass is a phrase that has only been used in this thread. FAQ says no warp charges and ALWAYS ON. not the test is auto passed. Autopass is misleading .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 04:03:57
Fragile wrote:Pg 68. DTW. "IF a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic Test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the power is resolved."
So it does say you get it for being targeted. The only argument here is that "warlock didnt have to take a test". Which I dont see as holding water. An autopass is still a pass.
auto pass is a phrase that has only been used in this thread. FAQ says no warp charges and ALWAYS ON. not the test is auto passed. Autopass is misleading .
The Eldar Codex says it does not have to take a test. Which means it auto passes the test. Now please refute my eariler post where i lay this out.
Well its a successful psychic power that targets a unit. You'll have to find something that says you can't DTW it, rather than saying im a good enough psyker I don't need to roll the dice.
Also in the rulebook its says "psychic powers without a type"
Psychic powers without a type will have rules for using it clearly expressed in its entry"
Destructor: Normal shooting attack.
That is a destructor specific special rule. no other "psychic power" in the game has it. Codex trumps rule book, and FAQ edits codex. that is expressed int the rule book. and have been for ever.
Thrawn2600 wrote:Yup and the words for overwatch right out of the rule book is "Normal shooting attack"
Destuctor says it is fired just as a "Normal shooting attack"
From your own OP:
Eldar FAQ " Q which Eldar Psychic Powers are eldar shooting attacks? A: Destructor, eldritch storm and mind war ( Though they include exceptions to the normal shooting rules included in there description)" (Eldar faq second page right side)
Which makes Destructor a Psychic Shooting Attack, Which makes it Witchfire.
As for the steps for a psychic power
1. Expend Warp Charge
Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge. Replaced by Eldar FAQ: Warlocks don't need Warp Charge To Activate their powers.
2. Declare Target
If the psychic power requires a target, choose it now. This one applies
3.Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp,which is resolved immediately. This one is replaced by the Eldar Codex stating that Warlocks don't have to take a Psychic Test.
4. Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens. Steps 1-3 are followed. Go ahead and Roll that DtW!
5. Resolve Psychic Power
Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll,
Because Apprently Thraw keeps missing my post that addresses this.
Thrawn2600 wrote:Yup and the words for overwatch right out of the rule book is "Normal shooting attack"
Destuctor says it is fired just as a "Normal shooting attack"
From your own OP:
Eldar FAQ " Q which Eldar Psychic Powers are eldar shooting attacks? A: Destructor, eldritch storm and mind war ( Though they include exceptions to the normal shooting rules included in there description)" (Eldar faq second page right side)
Which makes Destructor a Psychic Shooting Attack, Which makes it Witchfire.
As for the steps for a psychic power
1. Expend Warp Charge
Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge. Replaced by Eldar FAQ: Warlocks don't need Warp Charge To Activate their powers.
2. Declare Target
If the psychic power requires a target, choose it now. This one applies
3.Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp,which is resolved immediately. This one is replaced by the Eldar Codex stating that Warlocks don't have to take a Psychic Test.
4. Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens. Steps 1-3 are followed. Go ahead and Roll that DtW!
5. Resolve Psychic Power
Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll,
Because Apprently Thraw keeps missing my post that addresses this.
your post does not address this correctly. you do not state where it says they can not be fire on overwatch. You also state that Warlocks do not need a psychic test. That does not satisfy validation for DtW. I have not rolled and passed a psychic test as stated by psychic test.
May I kindly ask if you have the rulebook in front of you? (i really mean that, i'm not trying to insult you)
Considering that that was a quote straight from the Rulebook, Codex: Eldar and the Eldar FAQ, then I'd assume that yes i do have the all the relevant rulebooks in front of me.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Considering that that was a quote straight from the Rulebook, Codex: Eldar and the Eldar FAQ, then I'd assume that yes i do have the all the relevant rulebooks in front of me.
Get me a page number on not being able to make a normal shooting attack on overwatch. cause that's my special rule for the power. I do not even care if they get DtW. the point is the overwatch. lets call it witchfire, but it still has in its detailed rules that it is used as a normal shooting attack instead of firing another weapon. Overwatch uses all the rules of a normal shooting attack, but in the enemies assault phase.
Also you did not say yes, so im gonna assume (just as you assume) you do not have any of the books in front of you.
Thrawn2600 wrote:Read Overwatch again. By that logic you can not shoot bolters. As they can only be shot in the shooting phase.
Quote
" Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one that is resolved in your enemies assault phase) " The instead of fireing a weapon means I can not shoot my destuctor and pistol. so it is not a shooting attack in addition to it is a shooting attack instead of.
Keep reading; after the parentheses, the sentence continues to explain that that Shooting attack uses all the normal rules for Range, LOS, Cover saves and So on.
You are given explicit Permission to Shoot your weapons in the Overwatch Shooting attack, and you are told which rules to use.
you are not told you are taking a special shooting Phase.
Since both Witchfire and Destructor rules tell you the power gets used in the shooting phase, and there is absolutely no permission to use it, specifically, outside of either The Psyker's or any other shooting phases; then you may not use it outside of the specified time(Shooting phase)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 04:25:19
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Page 69: Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks.
There is no permission given to use Witchfire as overwatch. Which is what a destructor is, a Witchfire Attack.
Thrawn2600 wrote:Read Overwatch again. By that logic you can not shoot bolters. As they can only be shot in the shooting phase.
Quote
" Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one that is resolved in your enemies assault phase) " The instead of fireing a weapon means I can not shoot my destuctor and pistol. so it is not a shooting attack in addition to it is a shooting attack instead of.
Keep reading; after the parentheses, the sentence continues to explain that that Shooting attack uses all the normal rules for Range, LOS, Cover saves and So on.
You are given explicit Permission to Shoot your weapons in the Overwatch Shooting attack, and you are told which rules to use.
you are not told you are taking a special shooting Phase.
Since both Witchfire and Destructor rules tell you the power gets used in the shooting phase, and there is absolutely no permission to use it, specifically, outside of either The Psyker's or any other shooting phases; then you may not use it outside of the specified time(Shooting phase)
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack
(albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses
all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and
so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot
cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired
as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots (see page 13
for more on Snap Shots). Therefore, weapons and models that
cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
Only templates get D3 auto hits as detailed under wall of death.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Page 69: Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks.
There is no permission given to use Witchfire as overwatch. Which is what a destructor is, a Witchfire Attack.
What part do you keep missing that in the codex it states that it is used as a normal shooting attack. Are you ignoring it? Cause that trumps all the witch fire stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 04:32:49
What part of "Used in the shooting Phase" are you not getting?
Is Overwatch the shooting Phase(Psyker's for Basic witchfire, Any for the Specific power of Destructor)?
No.
The you have no permission to use it.
You do have permission to make shooting attacks, yes. But Shooting attacks are not specific to the Shooting Phase.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Space marines
and a smattering of chaos 
