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 Ammobunkerdean wrote:

If 12 thinking Jurors look at this chaplain next to a GW chaplain and do not see a direct dirivative work then there is no hope for any IP anywhere.

Lets hope so.

It is moronic to think because they lost the IP shenanigan they would be out of business, companies going through kickstarter dont get to produce full plastic kits and this will always be an advantage. Companies that are big enough to produce plastic kits, do not WANT to produce carbon copies of GWs kits, they want to DIFFERENTIATE themselves.

Is it a Jury trial or just a judge?

 BryllCream wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Tony Blair got legal advice before he started the Iraq war...

Have you seen him in prison lately?

no but what he did was later found to be illegal

Whats that gotta do with GW?

 kronk wrote:
Is it a Jury trial or just a judge?

Jury trial.

 kronk wrote:
Is it a Jury trial or just a judge?

Jury, so facts and law are anecdotal, it comes down to who sell it better to the 12 Average Joes.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Tony Blair got legal advice before he started the Iraq war...

Have you seen him in prison lately?

no but what he did was later found to be illegal

Whats that gotta do with GW?

chapterhouse took legal advise before they opened, but taking legal advice doesn't automatically mean that what you're doing.is legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Is it a Jury trial or just a judge?

Jury, so facts and law are anecdotal, it comes down to who sell it better to the 12 Average Joes.

if you have an alternative system,.do share. Sounds like you're covering your back in case gw do well. 'well they we're still wrong, they just duped those dumbass jurors'

 BryllCream wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Tony Blair got legal advice before he started the Iraq war...

Have you seen him in prison lately?

no but what he did was later found to be illegal

Whats that gotta do with GW?

chapterhouse took legal advise before they opened, but taking legal advice doesn't automatically mean that what you're doing.is legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Is it a Jury trial or just a judge?

Jury, so facts and law are anecdotal, it comes down to who sell it better to the 12 Average Joes.

if you have an alternative system,.do share. Sounds like you're covering your back in case gw do well. 'well they we're still wrong, they just duped those dumbass jurors'

Now you are just being argumentative.

CHS has legal advice when they started, which means that they were acting in GOOD FAITH that what they were doing was legal. That fact does matter a lot, as it shows they were not intentionally trying to infringe on any IP.

As stated before, that fact matters in the event that CHS loses and GW seeks damages.

None of this has to do with UK PM's or politics. Quit white knighting, it's getting tired.

I'm no Mod guys but the Bickering and trying to score points off of each other is going to cause this thread to be locked. And it is very unnecessary. We can discuss the implications of either outcome, and the case itself, without being argumentative to each other.

Wow this thread deteriorated fast.
Can we just get an update in the title when something new happens so I don't have to watch the dick contest?

 Lint wrote:
Wow this thread deteriorated fast.
Can we just get an update in the title when something new happens so I don't have to watch the dick contest?

Quite frankly, no matter who wins or loses, it's not like any of us are paying damages, so there's quite frankly no need to get so hot-tempered about everything. If GW wins, cool. It's not like the after-market is going to suddenly disappear, and for however much GW is going to prosecute every other independent studio out there, someone is still going to make after-market parts and circumvent GW's IP one way or another. If CHS wins, cool. Maybe GW gets on their game and starts producing the things their playerbase is calling for, and we still have an after-market that will likely expand.

Either way, we're not the ones paying damages or legal fees. So let's just sit back and enjoy the popcorn together as friends, mm'kay?

Yes. Everyone please get back on the topic.

Years ago I had a discussion with Aaron Overton of then DemonBlade Games about GW threatening legal action against DemonBlade games over their line of Orx, which looked vaguely like GW 40K Orks. He complied with the C&D because frankly the line of Orx sales did not justify the expense of a Legal Battle with the 800 pound Gorilla that was GW. It was simply cheaper and easier to resculpt and cast a new line of Orx, that were more humanoid. He alledged that afterwards someone at GW sent him paperwork about the matter, and in error they sent him a document that included the total billable hours and dollar amount that GW legal team had charged them. The total was 10 times the amount of the sales of his entire Orx line. He joked that he would have glady sold GW all the molds, models, and rights for the Orx line for a 1/10th of what they spent in legal fees if they had just asked him.

I share this story since I think it's relevant to the discussion here. Win or Lose, GW has most likely spent vastly more on this lawsuit than any potential damages they can attain from Chapterhouse. It would have been simpler and cheaper to just offer the guy a job.

 adamsouza wrote:
Years ago I had a discussion with Aaron Overton of then DemonBlade Games about GW threatening legal action against DemonBlade games over their line of Orx, which looked vaguely like GW 40K Orks. He complied with the C&D because frankly the line of Orx sales did not justify the expense of a Legal Battle with the 800 pound Gorilla that was GW. It was simply cheaper and easier to resculpt and cast a new line of Orx, that were more humanoid. He alledged that afterwards someone at GW sent him paperwork about the matter, and in error they sent him a document that included the total billable hours and dollar amount that GW legal team had charged them. The total was 10 times the amount of the sales of his entire Orx line. He joked that he would have glady sold GW all the molds, models, and rights for the Orx line for a 1/10th of what they spent in legal fees if they had just asked him.

I share this story since I think it's relevant to the discussion here. Win or Lose, GW has most likely spent vastly more on this lawsuit than any potential damages they can attain from Chapterhouse. It would have been simpler and cheaper to just offer the guy a job.

Wonderful anecdote.

GW will likely spend CHS' 4 year revenue before this is over, if they haven't already, and barring any appeals they may take up. I agree that at this point they could have just bought out CHS 2 years ago and saved themselves the PR disaster.

 Aerethan wrote:

Wonderful anecdote.

GW will likely spend CHS' 4 year revenue before this is over, if they haven't already, and barring any appeals they may take up. I agree that at this point they could have just bought out CHS 2 years ago and saved themselves the PR disaster.

didn't czakk or weeble or someone do a rough breakdown and found that, at minimum, GW has spent at least a million bucks on billable hours, flights, depositions, fees, etc? Like bare minimum was $750,000 with everything costing less than the industry averages

 judgedoug wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Wonderful anecdote.

GW will likely spend CHS' 4 year revenue before this is over, if they haven't already, and barring any appeals they may take up. I agree that at this point they could have just bought out CHS 2 years ago and saved themselves the PR disaster.

didn't czakk or weeble or someone do a rough breakdown and found that, at minimum, GW has spent at least a million bucks on billable hours, flights, depositions, fees, etc? Like bare minimum was $750,000 with everything costing less than the industry averages

Even better. I figured there was math done at one point, but I didn't recall it.

I guarantee GW could have bought out CHS for 500k and Nick would have sold(hard to say no to that kind of money when your take home is 3k/mo).

I could see Nick trying to turn down the sale to fight the good fight and try to stand up to GW but at the end of the day Money is money and if I was in his place would have sold if offered. Interesting trial to say the least. I'm sure this was covered in the 157 pages somewhere but what outcome is needed for CHS's legal council to be able to go after GW for money to cover there service?

From the CHapterhouse Website:

Due to legal obligations forcing me to be in Chicago, IL from May 30th to no later then June 13th, all orders placed during these weeks will be shipped out on Saturday, June 15th. Please place orders and plan accordingly.

I appologize for any delay and hardship this will incur on your hobby and games.

Sincerely,

Chapterhouse Studios LLC - Nick Villacci

 judgedoug wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Wonderful anecdote.

GW will likely spend CHS' 4 year revenue before this is over, if they haven't already, and barring any appeals they may take up. I agree that at this point they could have just bought out CHS 2 years ago and saved themselves the PR disaster.

didn't czakk or weeble or someone do a rough breakdown and found that, at minimum, GW has spent at least a million bucks on billable hours, flights, depositions, fees, etc? Like bare minimum was $750,000 with everything costing less than the industry averages

Might have been weeble. I think we did a guesstimate at how much it cost to depose Grindley though.

I can do some wild ass guessing if you like. On average a lawyer at Foley Lardner generates around 745k a year in gross revenues. There has been one partner and one senior lawyer working on this case for how many years? (http://www.americanlawyer.com/firmProfile.jsp?name=Foley+%26+Lardner)

Found it. It was weeble about two months ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/519738.page#5489202

In billable hours:
"The case has been ongoing since December 22nd, 2010. If we assume 28 months of litigation, and assume that the attorneys have collectively put about 1,000 hours into the case per year (this would equate to about 3 hours per day and is, I think, a reasonable estimate), that would get you a total of 2,333 billable hours. 2,333 hours at $300/hour would be about $700,000."

 Aerethan wrote:


GW will likely spend CHS' 4 year revenue before this is over, if they haven't already, and barring any appeals they may take up. I agree that at this point they could have just bought out CHS 2 years ago and saved themselves the PR disaster.

To be fair, you're presuming CHS is for sale. If I was them, *I* wouldn't sell to GW.
Likely, all GW would do is shelf the stuff. They didn't work their butts off to get this stuff to market, only to see it shelved. Especially since, I'm sure, any such purchase agreement would be required by GW to have a "non-comp" clause of some kind. They're not going to want to give money to someone to go away, only to fund his next project.

Eric

 judgedoug wrote:
Found it. It was weeble about two months ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/519738.page#5489202

In billable hours:
"The case has been ongoing since December 22nd, 2010. If we assume 28 months of litigation, and assume that the attorneys have collectively put about 1,000 hours into the case per year (this would equate to about 3 hours per day and is, I think, a reasonable estimate), that would get you a total of 2,333 billable hours. 2,333 hours at $300/hour would be about $700,000."

And that's just attorney billable hours. Add on travel costs, etc.

So I'm wondering what would be the eventual outcome of this if GW wins, would that mean that no one could make shoulder pads for Space Marines anymore, or vehicle add-on kits, or separate weapons?

What would the status be of CHS current range?

If CHS wins, if I've read things right, GW could still go after them later for essentially the same thing?

Could CHS go after other bits companies that also make similar shoulder pads and sue them?

I'm a layman so this case is somewhat confusing to me and I'm wondering just what exactly, if any, impact this will have on other parts manufacturers like Scibor, Anvil Industries, Forge Planet.

Will this prevent anyone else from starting their own range of add-on components?

Or is this only going to effect USA based businesses?

If GW wins, they can use this case as a precedent (under common law) and sue other after-market manufacturers based in the US. CHS would have to take down their current range. CHS cannot go after other bits companies because they don't own the trademarks and copyrights - GW does, that's why they can sue CHS.

However, GW will have to start afresh in other countries because taking precedence of other cases common law only applies to that country, unless another country's legal system decides to take into consideration the decisions in US courts.

 Enigwolf wrote:
If GW wins, they can use this case as a precedent (under common law) and sue other after-market manufacturers based in the US. CHS would have to take down their current range. CHS cannot go after other bits companies because they don't own the trademarks and copyrights - GW does, that's why they can sue CHS.

However, GW will have to start afresh in other countries because taking precedence of other cases common law only applies to that country, unless another country's legal system decides to take into consideration the decisions in US courts.

Would it be correct to assume that if CHS wins then GW could still go after other companies for essentially the same thing, or would the CHS case create a precedent that would protect other companies?

It wouldn't protect those companies per se, but it would make those cases easier to get pro bono lawyers on if they know GW has a history of talking out their ass.

 Aerethan wrote:
I guarantee GW could have bought out CHS for 500k and Nick would have sold(hard to say no to that kind of money when your take home is 3k/mo).

Although this would have, in hindsight, resulted in a much lower total cost outlay, there's very little here that would serve any long-term purpose for GW.

So they buy CH. They end up with a mailing list for people that are already their customers, molds for bits that they already either declined to produce or already produce a similar substitute for, and they risk creating a cottage industry of 'people who want to crank out knockoff stuff for the sole purpose of getting GW to buy them out later on' that long-term would be unsustainable, but short term risks creating even more brand dilution and product offering in their market.

The dirty laundry getting aired here is pretty dirty, like the offchance that GW can't lay claim to 'Space Marine', so in hindsight again this result may still be favorable to the huge rents that have been torn in the 'fortress wall' and filled in the 'fortress moat' of GW IP and hobbydom, but if you believed that your ducks were in a row initially, very little would have suggested that they pay to make it go away. That's my opinion, of course.

I will say, though, if dice were involved, this case would look like CH rollling straight 6s and GW tossing 1s and 2s, even with a couple rerolls.

mechanicalhorizon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
If GW wins, they can use this case as a precedent (under common law) and sue other after-market manufacturers based in the US. CHS would have to take down their current range. CHS cannot go after other bits companies because they don't own the trademarks and copyrights - GW does, that's why they can sue CHS.

However, GW will have to start afresh in other countries because taking precedence of other cases common law only applies to that country, unless another country's legal system decides to take into consideration the decisions in US courts.

Would it be correct to assume that if CHS wins then GW could still go after other companies for essentially the same thing, or would the CHS case create a precedent that would protect other companies?

Aerethan wrote:It wouldn't protect those companies per se, but it would make those cases easier to get pro bono lawyers on if they know GW has a history of talking out their ass.

It comes down to the specifics of the case at hand. If another case surfaces where the situation is exactly the same, this case sets a precedent for a very strong defense and the onus goes onto GW to prove that it's a completely different case and that they aren't filing a lawsuit for harassment purposes. But it won't stop GW from going after other companies to try to kill them with legal costs, but as Aerethan said, pro-bono lawyers are more likely to jump on to help the small guy.

It just seems to me that starting or having a company that sells components for GW models would be just too risky then, at least in the USA that is.

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:

Could CHS go after other bits companies that also make similar shoulder pads and sue them?

Maybe. It depends on what judgement they are given, right? It would mean probably mean that no one can copywrite the shoulder pads in question. It's unlikely that CHS would be granted the writes/rights/rites (dunno correct term) to the design, right?

Chapter House's law firm is working pro bono, that is to say for free. Dr. Grindley gave his deposition pro bono under a similar scheme for academics.