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I'm having a serious conundrum right now and need help putting things in their place so I can have reason to back up either answer if it ever came up. Would anything with the Haywire special rule, grenades and Haywire Blaster be able to affect and damage buildings, bunkers, bastions?

Not as far as I can tell. It says:

When a weapon with this special rule hist a vehicle

So nothing about buildings. Furthermore, in the "Attacking Buildings" section at the bottom of page 93, it says nothing about counting the building as a vehicle. It says buildings can be "shot at or charged" like a vehicle, but nothing about armour penetration in combat like a vehicle. As far as I can tell, this means no, but it will probably come up on an FAQ at some point.

p_gray99 wrote:Not as far as I can tell. It says:

When a weapon with this special rule hist a vehicle

So nothing about buildings. Furthermore, in the "Attacking Buildings" section at the bottom of page 93, it says nothing about counting the building as a vehicle. It says buildings can be "shot at or charged" like a vehicle, but nothing about armour penetration in combat like a vehicle. As far as I can tell, this means no, but it will probably come up on an FAQ at some point.

Doesn't a building have it's own chart for damage? Why would you not roll on that chart for any penetrating hits?

It's whether you can penetrate or not that's the problem. I'm not sure the haywire special rule has any effect on buildings.

A building is not a vehicle, it is therefore not effected by the Haywire special rule.

p_gray99 wrote:It says buildings can be "shot at or charged" like a vehicle, but nothing about armour penetration in combat like a vehicle. As far as I can tell, this means no, but it will probably come up on an FAQ at some point.

I think that may be putting the whole count-as argument a bit too far:

If, like you said, 'Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle.' only included the act of shooting or charging, but not how you handle armour penetration and damage results, then by RAW you couldn't ever penetrate their armour.

It goes on later on the same page that 'When shooting at a building, roll To Hit and for armour penetration normally. In close combat, they are hit automatically.'
If you assume you don't roll for armour penetration normally, there is no 'normally' if you don't have permission to roll for it in the first place. Even if you disregard that and would count that as permission to roll for armour penetration for shooting attacks, that would still mean you couldn't ever roll for armour penetration in close combat, as it only states you automatically hit.

Therefore I'm inclined to believe the 'Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle.' also includes rolling for Armour Penetration, which would mean things like Ordnance, Melta and Haywire weapons (which all only name vehicles, not buildings) get their respective benefits against buildings the same way they get them against regular vehicles.

Redemption wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:It says buildings can be "shot at or charged" like a vehicle, but nothing about armour penetration in combat like a vehicle. As far as I can tell, this means no, but it will probably come up on an FAQ at some point.

I think that may be putting the whole count-as argument a bit too far:

If, like you said, 'Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle.' only included the act of shooting or charging, but not how you handle armour penetration and damage results, then by RAW you couldn't ever penetrate their armour.

It goes on later on the same page that 'When shooting at a building, roll To Hit and for armour penetration normally. In close combat, they are hit automatically.'
If you assume you don't roll for armour penetration normally, there is no 'normally' if you don't have permission to roll for it in the first place. Even if you disregard that and would count that as permission to roll for armour penetration for shooting attacks, that would still mean you couldn't ever roll for armour penetration in close combat, as it only states you automatically hit.

Therefore I'm inclined to believe the 'Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle.' also includes rolling for Armour Penetration, which would mean things like Ordnance, Melta and Haywire weapons (which all only name vehicles, not buildings) get their respective benefits against buildings the same way they get them against regular vehicles.

I agree you can "roll for armor penetration" as you would a vehicle but you do not get the benefits of USR's that only apply to Vehicles.

Although, I think that Melta definitely will(or should) be FAQ'd to apply to buildings as it only makes sense since it s "breaching" charge. Don't think Haywire will though.

Well, if you disallow Haywire, you should by the same logic disallow:

- Ordnance weapon's extra D6 pick the highest
- Melta weapon's extra D6 in half range
- Rending weapon's extra D3 on a 6
- Lance weapon's max AV of 12
- Strafing Run weapon's +1BS against vehicles
- And how would you resolve (Large) Blast weapons against buildings if they don't count as vehicles?
Edit; oh and:
- Tank Hunter's re-roll armour penetration

Redemption wrote:Well, if you disallow Haywire, you should by the same logic disallow:

- Ordnance weapon's extra D6 pick the highest
- Melta weapon's extra D6 in half range
- Rending weapon's extra D3 on a 6
- Lance weapon's max AV of 12
- Strafing Run weapon's +1BS against vehicles
- And how would you resolve (Large) Blast weapons against buildings if they don't count as vehicles?

This is exactly how I've been playing it, and I'm the one using ordnance weapons against buildings.

Sounds like a good thing for GW to answer in an FAQ.

Redemption wrote:Well, if you disallow Haywire, you should by the same logic disallow:

- Ordnance weapon's extra D6 pick the highest
- Melta weapon's extra D6 in half range
- Rending weapon's extra D3 on a 6
- Lance weapon's max AV of 12
- Strafing Run weapon's +1BS against vehicles
- And how would you resolve (Large) Blast weapons against buildings if they don't count as vehicles?
Edit; oh and:
- Tank Hunter's re-roll armour penetration

Yes, I agree . I think that is how it should be played.

Not sure about the blast thing though.

Makes sense to me.

But if you follow that branch of logic, and disallow the effects because the buildings don't count as vehicles, how would you resolve:

1. Close Combat against building. As I stated above, if you don't follow the rules for vehicles, page 93 only states armour penetration for shooting attacks, not close combat attacks.
2. Blast, Large Blast and Template weapons? As all these rules only specify how to roll Armour Penetration against vehicles, not buildings.

You follow the normal rules for Armor Penetration as covered by page 93. Although you treat buildings as vehicles when penetrating armor you do not get the benefit of weapons that have special rules against vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redemption wrote:But if you follow that branch of logic, and disallow the effects because the buildings don't count as vehicles, how would you resolve:

1. Close Combat against building. As I stated above, if you don't follow the rules for vehicles, page 93 only states armour penetration for shooting attacks, not close combat attacks.
2. Blast, Large Blast and Template weapons? As all these rules only specify how to roll Armour Penetration against vehicles, not buildings.

Re-read page 93. All the relevant rules for CC are there. They aren't even hidden.

Please quote the rules you're talking about.

Redemption wrote:Please quote the rules you're talking about.

No. Read the rules before posting here. Here is a couple hints:

"may shoot at or charge", "either in combat or with shooting", "In close combat".

I have to take back what I said.
I believe that this paragraph on pg 92 kind of seals the deal for me.

BRB wrote:
Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicie
rules. The main difference between buildings and actual
vehicles is that they can't (nove, and units from either side
can go inside. To make use of these rules effectively, you'll have
to agree the building's Transport Capaciry and Armour Values.
You'll note that buildings don't use Hull Points and can't be
completely destroyed. They can, however, be damaged to the
point that it's impossible for anyone to enter them.

The bold is from the book not me. The underlining is me, and I think this is what allows for the vehicle USR's to apply to buildings

*sighs*

As I have stated above, it only mentions armour penetration for shooting, not close combat.

Forgive me for not thinking you ridiculous enough to claim that assaulting units cannot penetrate the armor of a building because it doesn't specifically say so in the building section. *sigh* is it poorly worded, yes. Is it clear that you follow AP for both shooting and CC? Yes. "The main difference between buildings and actual vehicles is that they can't move, and units from either side can go inside."

The building has an AV so you roll to penetrate like normal. Page 93 clarifies which rules for transports are used, so we take that and apply it to CC as well. It is all written you just have to hunt for it if you really need it.

Which is my point exactly, if the rules for attacking buildings require the vehicle rules to function properly, why do other things that work on vehicles suddenly not work on buildings? Seems like picking and choosing which rules apply.

For example, when a Flyer in Hover Mode is treated as a Fast Skimmer, any rules that benefit or penalize Fast Skimmers, such as Jink saves and being immobilised in terrain, also apply to said Flyer, no? What exactly make buildings that count as vehicles different?

just realized, that I guess you cannot assault out of a building nor the turn you leave a building.

You know, it's not often that I realise that I've been wrong, but I reckon Redemption is right here. At least it would make sence in RAI, and I think I agree with him over the RAW as well.

Redemption wrote:Which is my point exactly, if the rules for attacking buildings require the vehicle rules to function properly, why do other things that work on vehicles suddenly not work on buildings? Seems like picking and choosing which rules apply.

It is exactly picking and choosing which rules apply, but it is not me doing the picking. It is GW. They say that buildings follow many of the aspects of transport vehicle rules. They then explain which of those rules they follow. I think that melta weapons should get the 2d6 to armor penetration, but RAW they don't.

Well, to sum it up, the line 'Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle' can be interpreted two ways:

1. It means they're treated as vehicles for all purposes, including rolling to Hit, armour penetration and any rules that affect vehicles, such as Haywire, Melta and Ordnance.
2. It only gives permission to shoot at or charge occupied buildings, but it doesn't treat them as vehicles for any other purposes. Things like Haywire, Meta and Ordnance do not work against buildings, but suddenly you need to make big rule loopholes and handwaves to make things work, including getting permission to roll for armour penetration in close combat or how blast markers and templates work.

Using the principle of Ockham's Razor, I'm going to play it by the first method until I meet an opponent that disagrees, which will probably be never in my gaming group.

Redemption wrote:Well, if you disallow Haywire, you should by the same logic disallow:

- Ordnance weapon's extra D6 pick the highest
- Melta weapon's extra D6 in half range
- Rending weapon's extra D3 on a 6
- Lance weapon's max AV of 12
- Strafing Run weapon's +1BS against vehicles
- And how would you resolve (Large) Blast weapons against buildings if they don't count as vehicles?
Edit; oh and:
- Tank Hunter's re-roll armour penetration

You know, this is a pretty big kick in the nuts to dark eldar.
They get no S10 weapons, and only get S9 on the bomber.
It would make it nearly impossible for dark eldar to deal with a fortress.

Just stay inside and keep shooting.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

It would make it nearly impossible for dark eldar to deal with a fortress.

Just stay inside and keep shooting.

-Matt

Actually, with Wyches I would assault the building with grenades and get D6 S4 hits per wyches with the grenades they carry. Why destroy a perfectly good building if you can toast everyone inside?

HansCH