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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 18:32:12
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/08/mobile-phones
THE high-stakes court case between Apple and Samsung that got underway in a federal court on July 30th has attracted more than the usual media fanfare. The two technological titans have been trading barbs in court rooms across the world. The present trial in San Jose, California—just down the road from Apple's headquarters—is scheduled to last 40 days. The outcome is expected to have a major influence on the way patent disputes are resolved in future.
Apple has accused Samsung of copying not only its iPhone’s look and feel, but also a feature known as “rubber-banding” that is a highlight of its user-interface. For its part, Samsung says Apple violated two of its “standards essential” patents covering the way mobile phones communicate, as well as three other patents concerning they way they handle music and pictures. Apparently, Apple refused to pay the licence fees, but used the technology anyway.
Samsung has also charged that, far from being unique, the iPhone owes much to earlier Sony and LG Electronics models. In other words, there is plenty of prior art around. It is fairly clear, says Florian Mueller, an intellectual-property consultant interviewed recently by the Wall Street Journal, that Apple did not invent the iPod and iPhone out of thin air—but relied, to some degree, on innovations that already existed. “This is the way innovation typically works.”
Apple has much to lose. At stake is its reputation as the supplier of the most desirable of mobile devices. When it launched the iPhone in 2007, it had the smartphone market essentially to itself. But since Google began offering its free Android operating system to mobile phone-makers everywhere, the competition has become brutal—with Samsung leading the charge. Over the past three months, for instance, Apple has seen its slice of the smartphone business squeezed from 23% to under 17%. Meanwhile, Samsung’s share has increased from 29% to over 32%.
Whether die-hard fans like to admit it or not, the iPhone has fallen behind in appearance as well as technology. Samsung, Motorola Mobility (now part of Google) plus all the other makers of Android phones have been delivering faster and thinner models with bigger screens and ever slicker multi-tasking software at a blinding pace. Once-loyal Apple customers have become less impressed. The new iPhone, due in late September, will be thinner and have a slightly larger screen. But by updating its devices just once a year means Apple is now continually having to play catch-up.
With the magic wearing off, Apple’s global attack on Samsung is aimed primarily at winning injunctions to drive the South Korean company (the most successful of the Android makers by far) off the market. The current court case in San Jose is one of more than a dozen that Apple has brought against Samsung and other Android makers.
But the ploy remains a risky one. If the San Jose court rules in Apple’s favour, Samsung could be forced to cough up $2.5 billion in damages alone. But the ruling could just as easily go the other way. In that case, Apple could be stuck with having to pay Samsung a $14 royalty on every iPhone ever made.
Whatever the outcome, Judge Lucy Koh has made it clear that she will stand no nonsense from either party. Before joining the bench, Judge Koh was an experienced patent attorney and knows the issues intimately. Her instructions to the nine-person jury will be aimed at setting precedents that can be applied to other patent cases Apple has brought against Samsung and other competitors.
The case cannot help but be influenced by a lawsuit brought by Apple against Motorola in June. In that instance, Judge Richard Posner, one of the sharpest minds on the federal bench and an outspoken critic of America’s troubled patent system, dropped a bombshell by dismissing the case entirely. He ridiculed Apple’s overly broad claims about patents covering its user-interface, and summarily dismissed Motorola’s demand for a fat royalty for its basic communications patents.
The 73-year-old Judge Posner, who also teaches at Chicago Law School, is one of the founders of the legal school that interprets patent law in economic terms. His argument last June for refusing to ban Motorola’s products from the shelves, as Apple sought, was that “an injunction that imposes greater costs on the defendant than it confers benefits on the plaintiff reduces net social welfare”. That is the economic interpretation of patent law at work.
If, as it seems, Apple has had to resort to the courts to stifle competition and limit consumer choice, then it is a sad day for American innovation. That the company can do so with such impunity is an even sadder reflection of how dysfunctional the patent system in the United States has become.
The only reason why governments grant patents (and the monopoly rights they entail) is to promote innovation—in the hope of generating jobs and additional sources of revenue. Patents seek to do this by requiring the inventor to make prompt and full disclosure of the idea, so others may seek a licence to use it, or find ways to work around it. In exchange, the inventor is granted the right to exclude competitors for 20 years or so.
The cost to society of allowing a monopoly to flourish has long been assumed to be outweighed by the benefits that accrue from encouraging individuals to spend their own resources inventing useful things that did not exist before. In short, patents have been seen as a necessary evil for fostering innovation.
That assumption is now being challenged. Indeed, a debate has been raging in the United States over whether patents—especially those granted for protecting software ideas and business processes—help or hinder innovation. Mostly, it is thought they do the latter. All the evidence suggests that after patent protection is obtained, it tends to be used as a means for hurting competitors and inhibiting progress. In other words, patents are, in many instances, an unnecessary evil.
In recent times, the courts in America have contributed to this sorry state of affairs. In particular, the Federal Circuit (the centralised appellate court established in 1982 to hear patent disputes among various other things) has been responsible for a number of bizarre rulings on software patents in particular. The problem with the Federal Circuit is that, because of it diverse responsibilities, it has never developed the kind of expertise in patent law that its more specialised counterparts in Europe and Japan have acquired.
Meanwhile, the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has itself played fast and loose with the rules of patentability. Admittedly, the sheer size and complexity of modern software have made it difficult for patent examiners to judge whether a program contains features that are genuinely novel, non-obvious and useful—the three criteria for patentability. The USPTO’s failure to apply the novelty and non-obviousness requirements rigorously enough has led to a proliferation of shoddy, overly broad patents. At best, these have often proved to be old and obvious; at worst, simply embodiments of well-established practices. This plethora of poor-quality patents is clogging American courts. They are what lie at the heart of the current patent dispute between Apple and Samsung in Judge Koh’s court.
The America Invents Act, signed into law last September, did much to encourage lone inventors with limited resources, but left intact some of the more egregious patent practices that hobble innovation in America (see “Programmed nonsense”, October 7th 2011). In particular, the overhaul did nothing to rein in the overly broad software and business-process patents that have given rise to the protection racket operated by “non-practising entities”. These entities (commonly known as “trolls”) produce nothing themselves, but amass patent portfolios solely to bully others into settlements. The usual victims are small companies lacking the time and money to challenge such litigation.
A recent study by James Bessen and Michael Meurer of Boston University showed the median company sued by such entities had little more than $10m in sales. All told, patent trolls sued over 5,800 companies in America last year, accruing some $29 billion in settlements. That is money that small-to-medium enterprises could ill afford and would have better spent on innovation.
The good news is that where Congress has feared to tread, American courts have lately shown themselves more determined. A growing chorus of judges is bent on bringing a healthy dose of economic sensibility to patent law. Their approach is to favour financial remedies over injunctions that constrain competition. What Judge Koh will finally recommend is impossible to say. But both Apple and Samsung could well find themselves ruled equal losers. And if that gives industry some pause for thought, all to the good.
The patents industry (and it basically is one now) really needs reform and regulation...
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 18:58:29
Subject: Re:Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Brutal Black Orc
The Empire State
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Being surrounded by Hipsters (via New York City) can't stop hearing about this, let alone hear how Apple is being robbed.
Sad day when you go to your favorite bar and most of the talk is about this lawsuit and not the upcoming NFL season.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 19:06:59
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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I find it quite interesting how Apple tries to maintain an image of "innovation" and "creativity," while going out of its way to crush its competition with legal papers.
That said, Samsung's not much better. I'd wager that Samsung's in the right on this issue, but I don't think either company should win anything from this case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 19:10:04
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Huge Hierodule
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
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This is why I'm with Sony.
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Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote:I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 19:12:50
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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Squigsquasher wrote:This is why I'm with Sony.
I am quite fond of my Xperia Arc. It's a little dated these days, but Canadian providers only let you change your phone once every 4 years.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/06 19:13:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 19:15:24
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Huge Hierodule
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
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I have a pretty good MP3 player from Sony (don't know the model) and it's pretty good. Also their headphones are excellent.
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Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote:I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/06 19:19:23
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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My main problem with Sony is that, in order to compete with Apple's products, they made many of their phones and music players only compatible with a certain type of 3.5 headphone jack.
Which is really stupid when you consider Apple's dominance in the market. Sony's "speshul" headphones were phased out pretty quickly, and now finding a good set for my phone is a pain in the ass.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 11:58:28
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Welcome to the modern age of technology, where to be big in the industry you don't need to put much effort into your products, you just patent vague ideas and sue anyone that actually makes a product that looks like your vague idea...
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DR:80S---G+MB---I+Pw40k08#+D+A+/fWD???R+T(M)DM+
My P&M Log: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/433120.page
Atma01 wrote:
And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!
Phototoxin wrote:Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.
daveNYC wrote:The Craftworld guys, who are such stick-in-the-muds that they manage to make the Ultramarines look like an Ibiza nightclub that spiked its Red Bull with LSD. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 12:48:40
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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This is part of an ongoing (and stupid) problem with technology. There are practically an infinite number of ways to achieve things in software or hardware, or by combining them. How do you patent rubber banding? The idea itself is fairly simply, and I'd actually say trying to patent it is like trying to patent the word "Monster." What you should be able to patent is how you achieve that effect, but then anybody with some know how and little reworking can end up doing the exact same thing in a slightly different way.
It's not as bad as patents on computer code, but its still really stupid.
Fafnir wrote:I find it quite interesting how Apple tries to maintain an image of "innovation" and "creativity," while mostly using technology already in existence and buying it up so they can claim they invited it.
Fixed. Apple hasn't innovated much for well over a decade. Steve Jobs, and Apple by extension, was a man who knew how to market technology. That was his real talent.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 13:25:56
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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LordofHats wrote:
Fafnir wrote:I find it quite interesting how Apple tries to maintain an image of "innovation" and "creativity," while mostly using technology already in existence and buying it up so they can claim they invited it.
Fixed. Apple hasn't innovated much for well over a decade. Steve Jobs, and Apple by extension, was a man who knew how to market technology. That was his real talent.
This too. Apple is hardly the first company to implement any of the technology that it sells. Steve Jobs' real affinity was for marketing above all else. Apple and its products are an example of commodity fetishism at its very best.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/07 13:26:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 13:29:23
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Or worst, depending on your stance.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 13:31:15
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Dominar
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I'd say Apple has been a leader in innovative concepts.
A music player smaller than my thumb
A phone that is a camera
A phone that is a music player
A phone that is an internet browser
A phone that is a gaming device
A computer that is so thin it can slice a tomato
Before Steve Jobs, that didn't really exist. Apple created stuff we didn't even know there was demand for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 13:35:21
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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Melissia wrote:Or worst, depending on your stance.
Well, I never said commodity fetishism was a good thing. I just said Apple's one of the best examples of it.
sourclams wrote:I'd say Apple has been a leader in innovative concepts.
A music player smaller than my thumb
A phone that is a camera
A phone that is a music player
A phone that is an internet browser
A phone that is a gaming device
A computer that is so thin it can slice a tomato
Before Steve Jobs, that didn't really exist. Apple created stuff we didn't even know there was demand for.
Except that stuff did all exist. Apple just created a demand for it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 13:52:06
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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I wouldn't say Apple created the demand. Apple utilized a combination of pre-existing technologies and made it marketable to the masses as something practical.
I personally don't consider that innovative (not that it isn't impressive as hell). The iPod as piece of technology really isn't that groundbreaking. As a product however it's like "duh, why didn't anyone do this sooner?"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 14:34:52
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Brutal Black Orc
The Empire State
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sourclams wrote:I'd say Apple has been a leader in innovative concepts.
A music player smaller than my thumb
A phone that is a camera
A phone that is a music player
A phone that is an internet browser
A phone that is a gaming device
A computer that is so thin it can slice a tomato
Before Steve Jobs, that didn't really exist. Apple created stuff we didn't even know there was demand for.
The first MP3 player I bought back in 2002 or 2003 was about the size of my index finger, made by sony. It wasn't stylish. But it worked and had a practical LCD screen. I got an iPod a few years later. iPods are the only thing I could say that are absolutely are superior to any other product I have used. Think I own 4 or 5 ipods and ipod nanos now.
I had a camera in my phone before the iPhone came out. It also played music, did not hold thousands of songs, but it did play music.
My camera also could access the internet, though it was painful to do so.
My phone also played games, they were barely SNES graphics but this phone was a year or 2 before the iphone debuted.
There was also the failed Nokia N-Gage which was packaged as a cell phone and gaming device.
Would not call Apple innovative by any stretch of the imagination. I would say they are great opportunists and were able to capitalize on on advanced technologies that have been around for quite sometime before iPhone was released. Don't think there is anything wrong with that, everyone does it, but to say Apple lead the way is a bit disingenuous. What I would say is that they raised the bar for phones to a degree we would not have seen for 10+ plus, smart phones have become the "Walkman of the 21st Century".
I think apple products are great, just in most cases I don't see them being worth the money.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/07 14:41:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 14:48:14
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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You're right that none of the technologies that Apple put into the iPod or iPhone were particularly original or new in their own right, but putting them all together in one package and making it work and making people want it is damn innovative.
I had a touchscreen phone before iPhones came out. It was bad. Its internet browsing capability was ridiculously painful, playing music was painful, playing games was painful. Then the iPhone came out and showed other companies how to do it properly.
That being said, the article in the first post is right about a number of points. The USTPO is doing a bad job with regards to software patents. For example, Apple holds a patent for various multi-touch technologies, which were demonstrated at a TED talk a year before the iPhone. They have a patent on 'swipe to unlock', which was available on Windows Mobile phones before the iPhone. etc etc. The iPhone is more than the sum of its parts, but if the parts can be found occurring in other places, then Apple doesn't have any claim to them.
Apple is essentially trying to stop Samsung and others from competing at all. They are making a huge deal about the fact that Samsung looked at the iPhone, saw their products weren't up to scratch, and attempted to build an iPhone competitor. So what? as long as Samsung doesn't actually copy the exact dimensions of Apple's design patent, Apple shouldn't be able to do a thing to stop them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 17:37:54
Subject: Re:Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Piston Honda wrote:
Sad day when you go to your favorite bar and most of the talk is about this lawsuit and not the upcoming NFL season.
I find almost anything preferable to more talk about football.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 21:31:11
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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As do I.
I talk with my father over things like this.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 23:15:23
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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I don't get the cult like following behind Apple. I have an iPhone, and I really like it, it does everything I could want it to. But it's still just a device, even though I get a lot of enjoyment from it. But why the over hyped loyalty to this brand, the fetishisation of it?
I don't understand why you get people queuing up at all hours to get the latest one, hanging on every word of Steve Jobs, the obsessiveness of some people that leads to them demanding their phone and manufacturer is better than others like kids comparing designer shoes in the playground. All these devices serve similar purposes and are similar in design, I really don't care at all. I don't think Apple stuff is so innovative in design that no one else can make a similar product, and I don't think it's in the interests of the market to give them that power.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/07 23:31:22
Subject: Apple suing Samsung over patents, Samsung suing Apple over patents
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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I think it all stemmed from when the imac g3 started gaining ground when PCs were the be all and end all of the computer industry and it was cool to be different. It just grew from there. These days having an iPhone is just like wearing a rolex.
Me I prefer phones which get a signal, and you know, I can call people with.
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