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Wanted to get some of your takes on this.

Imotekh has lord of the storm which allows him to possibly hit unengaged models (including vehicles) with d6 str 8 lightning attacks at the start of the Necron shooting phase as long as night fighting is still in effect.

My question is, do you guys think these should hit flyers in zoom mode?

I would say yes it can hit as it is not a shooting attack.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I would say yes it can hit as it is not a shooting attack.

This is my take on it as well. Just wanted to see what some folks thought.

Yup. It's not a shooting attack, template, blast or large blast weapon; so it hits fliers (as well as any other unengaged enemy unit) juuust fine.

The real question is, can Flyers Jink against Lightining?

I would say yes, but I can't support it 100% with rules.

Grey Templar wrote:The real question is, can Flyers Jink against Lightining?

I would say yes, but I can't support it 100% with rules.

Well, a zooming flyer can't evade (which is what gives them jink) lightning, because evasion is only allowed after rolls 'to hit' which lightning does not do.

A flyer that is in hover mode however would have jink naturally and would be able to use this against lightning damage (assuming you believe that cover saves can generally be taken unless specified otherwise, which is still an issue that GW seems to regularly skirt).

yakface wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The real question is, can Flyers Jink against Lightining?

I would say yes, but I can't support it 100% with rules.

Well, a zooming flyer can't evade (which is what gives them jink) lightning, because evasion is only allowed after rolls 'to hit' which lightning does not do.

A flyer that is in hover mode however would have jink naturally and would be able to use this against lightning damage (assuming you believe that cover saves can generally be taken unless specified otherwise, which is still an issue that GW seems to regularly skirt).

They'd have jink, yes, but they still would have had to move in the previous turn to claim that jink save as a skimmer.

The power auto hits, so unless imotekh has the skyfire rule somehow, he can't hit fliers with it.

Except Imotekh's lightning is not a shooting attack so the hard to hit rule doesn't apply.

It's a shooting attack, with a shooting profile, that occurs in the shooting phase. It causes d6 automatic hits. You need a skyfire nexus to make it work.

I was going to say this, but wasn't sure.

juraigamer wrote:It's a shooting attack, with a shooting profile, that occurs in the shooting phase. It causes d6 automatic hits. You need a skyfire nexus to make it work.

One out of three right isn't all that good. It occurs in the shooting phase, but it is not a shooting attack, and it does not have a "shooting profile" as you put it. All weapons (Including CC weapons) now have an AP value, so there really isn't such a thing as a shooting profile, it's now a weapon profile. Next take a look at the power in the Necrons codex. It is a power that happens in the shooting phase, there is nothing that says it is a shooting attack. When there is nothing telling us what the attack is, we cannot simply say it is a specific type of attack. Just because a power is used during the shooting phase doesn't make it a shooting attack.

As for the question, flyers are hit since it is not a shooting attack hard to hit doesn't come into effect.

Show me where it's a melee attack and I'll agree with point 1

Show me were in the book were it states there is no such thing as a shooting profile for shooting weapons and I'll agree with point 2.

But you can't show me were the ability, that happens in the shooting phase, that does d6 automatic hits, isn't a shooting attack, because it isn't a melee attack, it has to be one of the two.

It doesn't work. Roll for a skyfire nexus on an objective or hit everything but fliers. You cannot automatically hit fliers with anything that causes hits.

juraigamer wrote:Show me where it's a melee attack and I'll agree with point 1

Show me were in the book were it states there is no such thing as a shooting profile for shooting weapons and I'll agree with point 2.

But you can't show me were the ability, that happens in the shooting phase, that does d6 automatic hits, isn't a shooting attack, because it isn't a melee attack, it has to be one of the two.

It doesn't work. Roll for a skyfire nexus on an objective or hit everything but fliers. You cannot automatically hit fliers with anything that causes hits.

No, a model can't hit a flier with a weapon that doesn't require BS to hit. The lightning does not come from a model nor does it come from a weapon.

The definition of a shooting attack in the rule book - "A unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

The lightning hits are a sub-effect (my term) of Imotekhs "Lord of the Storm" ability. That ability is triggered or failed at the start of the game turn.

juraigamer wrote:But you can't show me were the ability, that happens in the shooting phase, that does d6 automatic hits, isn't a shooting attack, because it isn't a melee attack, it has to be one of the two.

For you to be so adamant about an assertion must mean you can prove your statement.

Do so please.

juraigamer wrote:Show me where it's a melee attack and I'll agree with point 1

Show me were in the book were it states there is no such thing as a shooting profile for shooting weapons and I'll agree with point 2.

But you can't show me were the ability, that happens in the shooting phase, that does d6 automatic hits, isn't a shooting attack, because it isn't a melee attack, it has to be one of the two.

It doesn't work. Roll for a skyfire nexus on an objective or hit everything but fliers. You cannot automatically hit fliers with anything that causes hits.

An attack does not fall into only those two categories, shooting or cc. The doom of Malan'tai for example, his Spirit Leech ability is not a shooting attack, but it happens in the shooting phase. Why is it not a shooting attack? Because we aren't told that it's a shooting attack, therefore it must be a special rule instead of a shooting attack. Look under psychic powers, there are a number of different types of psychic powers, and only some of them are witchfire attacks. Under special rules there are a number of different type of special rules, and only some of them are shooting attacks. We are told specifically which ones are shooting attacks in the entry though.

Though not a shooting per say he does have to roll a 6 to have it effect each unit. So rolling a 6 could be argued as a hit on flyers. d6 hits at str 8, however if this is the answer to an opposing army flyer challenges its a sad one both relying on night fighting and 6's.
Hard to hit states " shots resolved at a ZOOMING flyer can ONLY be resolved as snap shots'. Snap shot states ." If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Sill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots". Emotekh's power fails to utilize or satisfy these two requirements there, so its a resounding NO.

I play necrons have Imotekh and still say no.

Ninja'd!

Its (what Im going to call a unique power) a special rule that causes D6 Str 8 AP 5 automatic hits (resolved on side armor for vehicles) on a D6 roll of 6.

Sure the power is used in the shooting phase, but it is not a shooting attack, does not have a shooting profile. Its a special rule that causes this. If you roll a 6 on your D6 for the flier, you move to see the number or hits. Then you roll to penetrate. Flier doesnt get its Evade special rule as no "to hit" roll was rolled.

Again, its a special rule. Not a snap shot, nor a regular shooting attack. It doesnt fall into either of the preventative lines shooting at fliers as it isnt a shooting attack. On a 6, you suffer D6 hits. :|

Lungpickle wrote:Though not a shooting per say he does have to roll a 6 to have it effect each unit. So rolling a 6 could be argued as a hit on flyers. d6 hits at str 8, however if this is the answer to an opposing army flyer challenges its a sad one both relying on night fighting and 6's.
Hard to hit states " shots resolved at a ZOOMING flyer can ONLY be resolved as snap shots'. Snap shot states ." If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Sill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots". Emotekh's power fails to utilize or satisfy these two requirements there, so its a resounding NO.

I play necrons have Imotekh and still say no.

So, what model is being forced to snap shot the lightning? Because, it's not coming from Imotekh.

juraigamer wrote:It's a shooting attack, with a shooting profile, that occurs in the shooting phase. It causes d6 automatic hits. You need a skyfire nexus to make it work.

Incorrect.

You suffer d6 hits, after rolling a 6, it is not automatic.

So by your logic, since it is supposedly a shooting attack I can declare it is snap firing this turn (By whom I have no idea, since the lightning doesn't come from Imotekh) whereupon instead of "hitting" on a 6, I will hit on a 6.

I suspect some folk may be conflating a 'special ability' (which just happens to do damage) with a 'shooting attack'.

For reference, this is a 'shooting attack':
...During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy...

Imotekh's lightning is not a ranged weapon, as such It cannot be 'fired' in the conventional and 40k-defined sense. (though it is used during the shooting phase just like a shooting attack would be.) You'll note as well that it does not have a specific weapon profile. Fortunately it is a part of a special ability with it's own rules for how and when it effects combat so that it can still be useful despite this.

I read it that since he hits any unit (including vehicles) on a 6 that it would include flyers as well as flying through a lightning storm would be dangerous at best and by pilots simply suicidal as you a lightning rod in the sky.

he already hits on 6s may as well be snapshots anyways so why worry too much about one lightning strike a turn?

Paitryn wrote:I read it that since he hits any unit (including vehicles) on a 6 that it would include flyers as well as flying through a lightning storm would be dangerous at best and by pilots simply suicidal as you a lightning rod in the sky.

he already hits on 6s may as well be snapshots anyways so why worry too much about one lightning strike a turn?

Well when it hits it hits d6 times so that can be pretty nasty to a flyer with av 10 - 12, it can easily take out an unlucky flyer.

agreed. but if a psyker gives a unit full bs for snapshots (lets say a farseer to a pair of broadsides in and eldar/tau ally list) you have the same problem easily. Unlucky on both ends, but luck is a factor that can't be accounted for.

If this were a shooting attack, whatever squad he joined would only be able to fire at any units hit by lightning, and he would not be able to use his other ranged attack. Anyone who says this is a shooting attack just because it happens in the shooting phase is saying that popping smoke counts as moving because it happens in the movement phase.

Grey Knecrons wrote:If this were a shooting attack, whatever squad he joined would only be able to fire at any units hit by lightning, and he would not be able to use his other ranged attack. Anyone who says this is a shooting attack just because it happens in the shooting phase is saying that popping smoke counts as moving because it happens in the movement phase.

If that were the case, they would still be able to shoot at anything as the lightning "targets" all unengaged enemy models. There is no restriction on having to "hit" anything, as you're implying. But still, as you said it's not how it works anyway so it's all moot. Just wanted to point that out.

It's not a shooting attack and it does not use Imotekhs BS. There's no LOS or range. You can't get a coversave by being between Imotekh and some object on the battlefield. It is a special rule that is in affect if Immotekh is included in your army.

1. It's not a shooting attack so Hard to Hit is irrelevant and it can hit flyers.
2. It's not coming from any direction so you would only get cover saves that are independent of the direction of the firer like area terrain or jink. Sorry, ruins don't count.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Sorry, ruins don't count.

Unless you classify Ruins as Area Terrain, in which case you get a 5+ Cover Save.

..or unless the ruin has a base, in which case it IS area terrain