Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've seen all the DE/Eldar deathstars. None of them are scoring troops though. I was thinking of this ...

Karandras 215
Farseer; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Doom; Fortune; Spirit Stones 155
Archon – Agonizer; Ghostplate Armour; Shadowfield; Combat drugs; Blast Pistol – 135
20 Storm Guardians ; 2 Fusion Guns; Warlock; Conceal 212

This unit should be able to weather shooting and still destroy in cc. The rest of the list can be pathfinders for eldar, and for DE, two squads of warriors in a venom and maybe a razorwing. Does anyone have a tough scoring troop for Eldar/De? This is a 1500 list.

The other possibility would be Wraithguard led by Karandras and Eldrad.

Eldrad 205
Karandras 210
10 Wraithguard + Spiritseer w/ Conceal, Singing Spear 399

This 800 points without any DE characters. So it is more expensive than your 20 Strom Guardian troop but it does have better firepower.

All the other deathstars (seer council dark halequin) cost in the 900 point range and do not score (unless you are lucky with your warlord power).

I like the wraithguard option better then storm guardians. Storm guardians being WS3, S3, T3 just cant hit with any kind of force :-/. They are only an option MAYBEEEEE if you tack enhance. But then they get shot to bits even moreeee.

Wraithguard as troops are a wall of death that WILL take and hold an enemy objective. With kasandras in there to bail them out of combat, things should be pretty smooth sailing. Just have to fill out the rest of the list.

Twenty guardians with archon, karandras, fortune and conceal are a pita to destroy and cost a lot less. I ran this list over the last two months ... played four games with it.

Eldar/Dark Eldar StormStar

Karandras 215 (EL)
Farseer; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Doom; Fortune; Spirit Stones 155 (EL)
Archon – Agonizer; Ghostplate Armour; Shadowfield; Combat drugs; Blast Pistol – 135 (DE)
Troop; 20 Storm Guardians ; 2 Flamers; Warlock; Conceal; Singing Spear 210 (EL)

Troop: 5 Pathfinders 120 (EL)
Troop: 2x 5 Kabalite Warriors; Blaster; Venom; 2 Splinter Cannons; Flickerfield - 250 (DE)

Fast Attack: !0 Scourges; Shard Carbines; 4 Haywire Blasters - 260 (DE)

Heavy Support: Razorwing Jetfighter; 2 Dark Lances; Twin-Linked Splinter Riflles; 4 Monoscythe Missiles; Flickerfields - 155 (DE)

I never lost the Storm Guardian squad yet and I played GK/IG, Tau/Eldar, Pure IG and Nids.

I remember reading a shenanigous idea involving Asurman
Asurman, exarch with shimmershield, defend, 10 avengers
Bladestorms for firepower, and when the enemy charge they get -2A from the double defend, 5++ save for the unit in melee (rerollable with fortune), and direswords for soulsucking p.weap attacks from the exarch and Asurman
Shadowfield Archon and farseer for the wankstar

Asurman is 230 points with less attacks than Karandras. Ten Dire Avengers will die faster than twenty storm guardians and they cost more. If assaulted not much is standing up to Karandras and Archon. No Karandras has no eternal warrior but he has a rerollable 2+ save. With a singing spear warlock, a witchblade farseer, and karandras, and archon w/ agonizer, all fortuned up and your opponent doomed, you do fine in cc and you still stand up to shooting. With three characters, fortune and 'look out sirs', I have never gone down to shooting yet.

Haemy and wracks with venoms and razorwing? They aren't as shooty, but T4 with FNP should last longer than our kabalites...

That is a very unique list.

Im not saying I dont like that list. I really do. I just wish SG's hit a little harder. The only thing you have hitting people are the archon and kasandras. Maybe that is enough. I would just see you losing a LOT of SG's really fast in close combat. Any enemy that has a high volume of attacks will put so many wounds on them. With a group WS of 3 you are hit on 3+ and With a group toughness of 3, You will be wounded on 3+ in CC. That will just be forcing a ton of saves.

IDK maybe I have to see it so believe it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And god forbid a beefy character challenges you. No eternal warrior on any of your characters. If that character is anyhting like kasandras (lots of power claw/fist attacks) but has an invulnerable save, that could really be bad. He challenges you...

You accept and can choose archon, kasandras, farseer, or warlock. You could just feed him the warlock but then you lose conceal and get shot to pieces. You wont feed him the farseer as you would lose fortune. You could put up kasandras, but you would both be hitting at initiative1 with lots of PF attacks. If the atatcker has and invuln, kasandras is most likely gone. You can choose the archon but the agoniser wont punch 2+ armour so tat wont do much good. The second Your heavy hitter is gone your unit just doesnt have the bite I dont think.

If you choose not to accept the challenge then your opponent renders one of your guys useless for the fight.

Also with characters, to hit rolls of a 6 can be allocated however he wants. So you have to be careful who is in base to base with who. That warlcok or farseer could get wacked.

Also, other then the blob of SG's, your troop choices are VERY weak. With 1 or 2 turns of shooting They could be wiped out. While your deathball is walking across the field, I would be shooting everything I have at your small troop choices. Just somehting to watch out for.

I play alot of space marines and run into drop pod sternguard. They carry bolts that ignore cover saves. 1 Pod with 10 sternguard dropping into rapid fire range on your SG's flank could cripple the entire unit with 20 shots of ignore cover. Every wound would be a dead SG.

I only say this because it happens to me a lot. :-/

Tough troops?

Hands down, full wraithguard squad.

However, I think the Baron is a must in this squad so that you can hit-and-run. Otherwise, the unit will get tarpitted. But a "hit and run" wraithguard squad? Oh hell yeah!

whembly wrote:Tough troops?

Hands down, full wraithguard squad.

However, I think the Baron is a must in this squad so that you can hit-and-run. Otherwise, the unit will get tarpitted. But a "hit and run" wraithguard squad? Oh hell yeah!

Lol I dont believe the Baron can give a wraithguard squad hit and run. I dont think anyone can actually. But that would be phenomenal if you could.

Yeah, the Baron CAN give them hit and run because it says that's the way Hit and Run works in the new rules now. If a character with it joins a squad then the squad gets the benefits of Hit and Run as well.

Also, other then the blob of SG's, your troop choices are VERY weak. With 1 or 2 turns of shooting They could be wiped out. While your deathball is walking across the field, I would be shooting everything I have at your small troop choices. Just somehting to watch out for.

I said I had not lost the SGsyet in a game. I have lost games, though. I o my best to keep the Venoms flying so that I can grab late objectives but that is not easy as good opponents will, as you say, target them early. I can hide them somewhat behind each other and the Razorwing but still ... Now if I went by the concensus at 1500we would field:

Eldrad 210
Baron 105
10 Wraithguard, Spiritseer, Conceal, Spear 399

Asurman 230
10 Dre Avengers,Exarch, PW/SS 147

2x 5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom, SC, FF 250

Razorwing, FF 155

4 troops, 3 flyers, 3 IC characters. Not terrible.

at 1750 I would add
2x 2 Warwalkers (Shatterlaser; Shatterlaser) - 240

at 2000
10 Scourges (4 Haywire Blasters) - 260

Holy crap..... I just checked all the rulings and you are RIGHT! This totally changes things.....Must kitbash a baron now lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He also gives out stealth. So it seems conceal+stealth giving the Wraithguards a 3+/4++. That is phenominal. Fortune that and you are golden.

Is that something you really want to spend 600 points on? 9 War Walkers are cheaper, and despite only living 2 turns at the most, would almost be guaranteed to kill more stuff.

DarknessEternal wrote:Is that something you really want to spend 600 points on? 9 War Walkers are cheaper, and despite only living 2 turns at the most, would almost be guaranteed to kill more stuff.

The answer is yes. I would love to shoot, hit, run, shoot and hit again with my wraithguard :-)

On a more serious note, Would the baron be just as good in a harleyquin unit?

Does stealth +stealth stack? The wording seems to go both ways. It stacks with shrouded, but do multiple of any of them become cumulative?

If so then A harleystar with fortuneseer and baron gives the 2+ rerolls and even makes the unit have 3+ cover in the open.

I dont think baron and harlies would work the same. I made the wraithgaurd/eldrad/baron and played a friend just to test my deathstar... Well needless to say I beat him badly and only lost one wraithgaurd.
He blocked my wraithgaurd from hit/running so they didnt get to hnr alot but they did get to one shot a swarmlord the other day... IMO the best deathstar in the game atm imo lols.

Stealth does not stack with Stealth.

"Cover saves from the shrouded and stealth special rules are cumulative"

But......

"Unless specifically stated, a model may not gain the benefit of a special rule more then once."

So yea No double stealth or shrouded.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And about the storm guardian kick, I just though about what flamers would do to them (or by god heavy flamers). The plastic itself would seem to melt.

Though I suppose the flamer would have to hit a side flank or make it so the closest model wasnt one of your independent characters with big saves.

What is interesting in 6ed is that we really are not as troop reliant as 5ed. Not that many missions rely heavily on capturing objectives ( 1 of 6). Yes at 2000 we need thrree or four but not more than that. Troops in 6ed need a clearly defined role to be useful. Our elites and heavy slots generally do the most damage. So I agree that a WG squad with the Baron is a very good inclusion in a list. I'm tempted to trade off my SG for them.
I do believe that stealth works with conceal, no? Would that not be a 4+ in the open?

felixcat wrote:
What is interesting in 6ed is that we really are not as troop reliant as 5ed. Not that many missions rely heavily on capturing objectives ( 1 of 6). Yes at 2000 we need thrree or four but not more than that. Troops in 6ed need a clearly defined role to be useful. Our elites and heavy slots generally do the most damage. So I agree that a WG squad with the Baron is a very good inclusion in a list. I'm tempted to trade off my SG for them.
I do believe that stealth works with conceal, no? Would that not be a 4+ in the open?

Not to be rude, but what in the heck are you talking about?! 5/6 missions require troops to capture objectives! In 1 mission heavy becomes scoring and in another fast attack becomes scoring. So I really dont know what you are saying when you say that troops are not needed.

If you take minimum troop requirements, they will be blasted off the board by turn 3 at the latest. Any smart playing will gun for your troops if they see them as weak.

Stealth does combine with shrouded for a 4+ in the open and up to a 2+ if your in cover. But you cant have stealth from 2 different sources(Ex. The baron and night fighting) and shrouded equal up to a 3+ in the open.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stealth and shrouded can work with conceal and they just increase its 5+

Taking a Haemonculi makes Wracks troops and Wracks are pretty hardy.

And 9-10 Wracks (with Liquifier Guns) is 100-120pts, with an extra 15pts for an Acothyst with a Venom Blade.
These can be put in a Raider.

Ovion? How are Wracks hardy? I guess I do not understand, is it just because of their T4? Please explain.

They are hardy compared to other Dark Eldar. T4 and Feel No Pain.

Though I can't think of anything in our army that can truly be called 'tough'

.

Not to be rude, but what in the heck are you talking about?! 5/6 missions require troops to capture objectives! In 1 mission heavy becomes scoring and in another fast attack becomes scoring. So I really dont know what you are saying when you say that troops are not needed.

Would never accuse you of being rude. Let me explain why I say that I'm less reliant on my troop FoC slots ... .


We have six new scenarios.

There is one mission with multiple kill points
There is one mission based on kill points
There is the relic mission with only one objective
Then you have two missions where either fast attack or heavy support are scoring - so these are not troop FoCs.
You have a warlord trait that can make your warlord scoring.
Only disembarked troops can score.

Therefore I say again that we have to look at Eldar/DE and decide if the points are not better spent outside of troop choices. My current list uses three troop slots until 2000 and then I use four. I have not felt it has hurt me yet. But since I'm using less troops I want my troops specialized to a degree. So WG fit the bill. SG with a phoenix lord is not bad. I don't mind a really strong DA squad with a serpent. I will use pathfinders. For DE I stick with Warriors in a venom. It has been working fine for me.

There is a heavier reliance on infantry because only foot infantry score in the troop slot. In 5ed I routinely would combat squad and often had 6+ possible scoring units. I don't find I need that in 6ed.

Follow up question to the OP.

Why do you need a "tough" troop?

Eldar has what myself and many others consider the best troop in 40k. Not because of what it kills, not because of its raw survivbility, but because of its "OMG are you serious!" speed.

Eldar jetbikes move between 50-60" per turn. Begin the game in reserve, enter the table and find a place where you are out of LOS, and reduce the enemy firepower for the first 5 turns of the game. Once most of your opponents army is dead, move your ridiculous amount onto the objectives and hope the game ends. that trick only costs you 66 points.

Is it killable? Sure, especially if the game hasn't been going that well, is it about the best 66 points you can spend on a troop in 40k. Probably.

As has been pointed out. 6th edition, much like 5th edition, is going to favor those that walk that thin line between barely enough troops to win, so that you can maximize the excellent elites that can control the board so well.

If you simply must put something on foot, and you don't want to just run an eldravatar+aegis+guardian spam...

then fortune a dire avenger unit with asurmen. That dude can seriously take a LOT of shooting when he is fortuned. Position him well, pray they don't have barrage and enjoy

I just find asurmen soooo expensive pt wise. When I can spend 155 on the avatar (and I like that model better). But on paper, that avenger unit seems solid as long as, like you said, no barrage weapons hit, or you get outflanked.

I would rather play my avatar with 2 squads of gaurdians than play Asurman and 1 squad of DA's.... The fearless bubble alone is worth the Avatars cost IMO.