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Hey Dakka,

Atm in the market for a good 40k novel, centred on Loyalist Space Marine chapters, and with the recent release of the Ultramarines second omnibus, I just wanted to ask anyone who's read the series (in its entirety or not) what their impression of the series is as a whole, and if they think its worth picking up.

Im not usually a fan of the Ultramarines, but at the same time, I dont hate on them for being GW's poster boys like a lot of people do. But I am a fan of novels written by Graham McNeill (as well as Abnett and ADB), so I thought I might give it a go. But money's tight, so I thought I'd best ask first

Cheers for any input, and obviously, please keep spoilers to a minimum.

I reckon you should read both omnibuses, whilst it is Ultramarines it is actually quite good I really like the first and second book in the series it has Necrons and Tyranids (including a C'tan)which is cool plus they tie into the iron Warrior omnibus if you have read it.

The Ultramarines series is (IMHO) a pretty good read.

Aside from the aforementioned points, Graham McNeill poses some questions that some people might not even consider, let alone from the Ultramarines' "rigidly codex" point of view. Indeed, if you read them carefully, there are a wealth of nuggets to find and mull over ( I'm trying hard to be as vague as hell here ).

As with any 40K novel, you'll take from it what you will - but reading them can only add to your knowledge and enjoyment of the 40K universe (at least, it does for me).

Reaper6 wrote:The Ultramarines series is (IMHO) a pretty good read.

Aside from the aforementioned points, Graham McNeill poses some questions that some people might not even consider, let alone from the Ultramarines' "rigidly codex" point of view. Indeed, if you read them carefully, there are a wealth of nuggets to find and mull over ( I'm trying hard to be as vague as hell here ).

As with any 40K novel, you'll take from it what you will - but reading them can only add to your knowledge and enjoyment of the 40K universe (at least, it does for me).

That's the kind of thing I wanted to hear Thanks for that. Indeed, Im not really expecting to come away as a massive Ultramarines fan, but I do hope to come away with a deeper understanding of the psyche of a Chapter that is so rigidly adheres to the Codex, and the difficulties and ramifications of doing so.

Glad to help - hope you enjoy

If you can get them cheap from somewhere then go for it, just don't expect too much.

Having read the first omnibus at least, I'd say that despite their many flaws they're worth a read. Dead Sky Black Sun was my personal favorite, but you may think differently.

I thought that both omnibus's were awesome books. I am not exactly a fan of the ultramarines but the books kinda made me want to start an army. You do kinda have to give them a chance because they arent all out action. There is a lot of time spent on the development of the political systems of the worlds they are on as well as some obscure characters.

My favorite series was by far the salamanders. They are really great books. Their order is Salamander, Firedrake, and Nocturne.

If I'm honest I nearly gave up after the first omnibus but I'm glad I didn't. I'm on the fifth book now and the charecture development has improved massively. I can't put it down now.

Graham Mcneill is probably my favorite BL author. If you read the UM books, you should read the IW books as well.

I've just finished the fifth book last night, and going to start book 6 tonight, and I can say I've enjoyed every minute of it.
I've found myself getting drawn more and more into the story, to the point where I'm expanding my second company Ultramarines to include the fourth company, to be led by Ventris, and definatly going to start Tau soon!
Agree with previous posters to also read the Iron Warriors omnibus, as it all ties in nicely (and is another great set of books!)

 GhostKnight31 wrote:
I reckon you should read both omnibuses, whilst it is Ultramarines it is actually quite good I really like the first and second book in the series it has Necrons and Tyranids (including a C'tan)which is cool plus they tie into the iron Warrior omnibus if you have read it.

I've yet to read these books but I assume those are pre-retcon Necrons. Is that book weird now with all the Newcron changes?

Not really.

The Ultramarine series was the first books i read from BL, only a few other books have (imo) been better than them.
The First book is great, kept me guessing all the way till the end.
The second is another good book, it also sets up the rest of the series.
Third is my second favourite of the 6, it does show a completly different side to the Ultramarines than normal fluff presents.
The fouth book was a bit of a let down in my opinion, tied lots of loose ends up, but not to the same quality as the others.
5 was different to most of the others as it is more centered on actual war and the ending is just great inspiration for a diarama.
The last book is by far my favourite, lots of action, brings out the best of the characters.
Then theres the fact that McNeilo has said there are more books to come.

Also, the final book (Chapters Due) is one of the few novels set after the turn of the millennium. It and the one before it are very heavily focused on the current Codex: Space Marines. And it expands heavily on the different ultramarines captains and characters.

The ones by Graham McNeill?

They're awful. He so utterly doesn't get the Ultramarines and so utterly doesn't understand how the Codex Astartes would work that the books are almost unreadable, and exist only in some parallel 40K universe where nothing needs to make any sense at all, and stories are held together by inane plot devices and macguffins.

Graham McNeill may be one of the worst writers of Space Marines that Black Library has. I'd suggest his Horus Heresy books instead. His human characters are actually fairly good. But the Ultramarines series is one of the poorer examples of 40K fiction. The writing itself is technically sound, but his research and knowledge of the setting and warfare are woefully horrible.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The ones by Graham McNeill?

They're awful. He so utterly doesn't get the Ultramarines and so utterly doesn't understand how the Codex Astartes would work that the books are almost unreadable, and exist only in some parallel 40K universe where nothing needs to make any sense at all, and stories are held together by inane plot devices and macguffins.

Graham McNeill may be one of the worst writers of Space Marines that Black Library has. I'd suggest his Horus Heresy books instead. His human characters are actually fairly good. But the Ultramarines series is one of the poorer examples of 40K fiction. The writing itself is technically sound, but his research and knowledge of the setting and warfare are woefully horrible.

Well then... I actually liked them. care to explain how they are so horrible...? (Like how he doesn't get the Ultramarines) Maybe in spoilers though, for the OPs benefit.

Anyways, if you do buy the first Omnibus, you're going to want to buy Storm of Iron, to read in between the second and third Ultra books. Storm of Iron is considered one of the best non-HH books in 40k by a lot of people, and is my personal favorite BL novel.

Graham McNeill's novels turn the Ultramarines into idiots. They were described as the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" ever since 1993. In the McNeill novels, they do absolutely idiotic things that wouldn't make sense. They look on battlefield innovation and initiative as a bad things, and are hampered by the Codex Astartes, a book that is supposed to be a collection of all the greatest military knowledge ever.

He totally doesn't understand that when the Ultramarines are referred to as adherents to the Codex, and revering its principles, that's what makes them the best. It's not what hurts them, lol. The Ultramarines rigidly adhere to the organizational and marking doctrines, as well as probably all the training and recruiting standards that were designed to minimize corruption of the gene seed and eliminate unworthy candidates.

Rigidly adhering to the Codex on warfighting is impossible. There's just no way that the Codex could possibly be an "If A, then B" instruction manual on Warfighting for Dummies. Let me preface this with the fact that I've been a US Marine infantryman, and have attended schools specifically on small unit leadership and studied numerous manuals, books, and treatises on strategy and tactics. Not a single one of them, all the way back to what could be considered the core text, Sun Tzu's Art of War, would tell you a specific way to handle any given tactical or strategic situation. A battle is an endless string of variables, and the best generals (and squad leaders) in history have exercised initiative and improvisation on the battlefield. As General James Mattis (USMC) said a few years ago: "I were to sum up what I've learned in 35 years of service, it's improvise, improvise, improvise." This guy was only a Marine for 35 years. Guilliman was a general for hundreds of years, lol. You're telling me he'd write a book that James Mattis would throw in the trash before he finished the first couple chapters?

No, but Graham McNeill, architect and chubby British author might, lol.

He only continues to perpetuate the most idiotic myth in 40K, which is that enemy commanders could predict what a Codex Space Marine commander would do "because he knew the Codex". That's the most idiotic concept ever, and one that no good writer of military fiction would ever subscribe to. It's a weak, lazy, cheap plot hook, at best. In order to outthink someone who was a master of the Codex, you'd have to... wait for it... be a master of the Codex Astartes yourself.

So, in the end, what do we come down to? The better general will win.

Think about it for a second. Any given battle situation has a huge number of variables. Time (both time available and the time of day), weather, environment, troop strengths (both yours and the enemy's), terrain, logistics (ammunition, food, sleep, availability of, feasibility of, and time needed for resupply), equipment and weaponry available, reserves (both yours and the enemy's), supporting fires (both yours and the enemy's), etc. The list goes on. There's no way that a commander has all of that information available at any given time, and even if he does, there's no way that there is a textbook answer for how to fight. An experienced and skilled general is going to analyze all of that data and make an educated decision on how to proceed. The human brain, it's a crazy thing, and history's best military leaders have just had a knack for warfare. There's just no way the Codex Astartes makes you predictable or, more idiotically, doctrinally unable to make battlefield decisions. Military leadership is nothing but making battlefield decisions on the fly.

Like I said, the Ultramarines novels aren't bad on the level of his writing ability. Graham McNeill is a competent writer on the technical level. But he doesn't get warfare, and he didn't seem to do any research when he did so. It's not a problem when you're just writing action set pieces. But Graham McNeill very specifically attempts to tackle subjects he obviously knows nothing about. He could have easily written stories about Space Marines that didn't have any complex back story, or tackle the aspects of strategy. But he did. And he failed.

And failed in a most epic fashion.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Graham McNeill's novels turn the Ultramarines into idiots. They were described as the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" ever since 1993. In the McNeill novels, they do absolutely idiotic things that wouldn't make sense. They look on battlefield innovation and initiative as a bad things, and are hampered by the Codex Astartes, a book that is supposed to be a collection of all the greatest military knowledge ever.

He totally doesn't understand that when the Ultramarines are referred to as adherents to the Codex, and revering its principles, that's what makes them the best. It's not what hurts them, lol. The Ultramarines rigidly adhere to the organizational and marking doctrines, as well as probably all the training and recruiting standards that were designed to minimize corruption of the gene seed and eliminate unworthy candidates.

Rigidly adhering to the Codex on warfighting is impossible. There's just no way that the Codex could possibly be an "If A, then B" instruction manual on Warfighting for Dummies. Let me preface this with the fact that I've been a US Marine infantryman, and have attended schools specifically on small unit leadership and studied numerous manuals, books, and treatises on strategy and tactics. Not a single one of them, all the way back to what could be considered the core text, Sun Tzu's Art of War, would tell you a specific way to handle any given tactical or strategic situation. A battle is an endless string of variables, and the best generals (and squad leaders) in history have exercised initiative and improvisation on the battlefield. As General James Mattis (USMC) said a few years ago: "I were to sum up what I've learned in 35 years of service, it's improvise, improvise, improvise." This guy was only a Marine for 35 years. Guilliman was a general for hundreds of years, lol. You're telling me he'd write a book that James Mattis would throw in the trash before he finished the first couple chapters?

No, but Graham McNeill, architect and chubby British author might, lol.

He only continues to perpetuate the most idiotic myth in 40K, which is that enemy commanders could predict what a Codex Space Marine commander would do "because he knew the Codex". That's the most idiotic concept ever, and one that no good writer of military fiction would ever subscribe to. It's a weak, lazy, cheap plot hook, at best. In order to outthink someone who was a master of the Codex, you'd have to... wait for it... be a master of the Codex Astartes yourself.

So, in the end, what do we come down to? The better general will win.

Think about it for a second. Any given battle situation has a huge number of variables. Time (both time available and the time of day), weather, environment, troop strengths (both yours and the enemy's), terrain, logistics (ammunition, food, sleep, availability of, feasibility of, and time needed for resupply), equipment and weaponry available, reserves (both yours and the enemy's), supporting fires (both yours and the enemy's), etc. The list goes on. There's no way that a commander has all of that information available at any given time, and even if he does, there's no way that there is a textbook answer for how to fight. An experienced and skilled general is going to analyze all of that data and make an educated decision on how to proceed. The human brain, it's a crazy thing, and history's best military leaders have just had a knack for warfare. There's just no way the Codex Astartes makes you predictable or, more idiotically, doctrinally unable to make battlefield decisions. Military leadership is nothing but making battlefield decisions on the fly.

Like I said, the Ultramarines novels aren't bad on the level of his writing ability. Graham McNeill is a competent writer on the technical level. But he doesn't get warfare, and he didn't seem to do any research when he did so. It's not a problem when you're just writing action set pieces. But Graham McNeill very specifically attempts to tackle subjects he obviously knows nothing about. He could have easily written stories about Space Marines that didn't have any complex back story, or tackle the aspects of strategy. But he did. And he failed.

And failed in a most epic fashion.

Sadly this is nothing new for BL spessmuhreen fiction. There aren't many books where marine commanders act in an even remotely reasonable fashion. Instead many authors rely on the usual "spess muhreens are awesome and kill stupendous amounts of enemies because spessmuhreens are just so damn cool" writing.

That's more or less just 40k period though. I remember in one the of earlier Horus Heresy books, they talk about how Horus was a visionary for sending a squad of elite troops to infiltrate the enemy base and kill the commander.

KingDeath wrote:

Like I said, the Ultramarines novels aren't bad on the level of his writing ability. Graham McNeill is a competent writer on the technical level. But he doesn't get warfare, and he didn't seem to do any research when he did so. It's not a problem when you're just writing action set pieces. But Graham McNeill very specifically attempts to tackle subjects he obviously knows nothing about. He could have easily written stories about Space Marines that didn't have any complex back story, or tackle the aspects of strategy. But he did. And he failed.

And failed in a most epic fashion.

Sadly this is nothing new for BL spessmuhreen fiction. There aren't many books where marine commanders act in an even remotely reasonable fashion. Instead many authors rely on the usual "spess muhreens are awesome and kill stupendous amounts of enemies because spessmuhreens are just so damn cool" writing.

Pretty much. That's why I said it's okay if they are just writing action and character pieces.

The problem with McNeill's books is that he tried to write strategy and combat leadership when he so painfully obviously knows nothing about the subject. "Ridculously melodramatic statement -> charge -> chainsword -> incongruous action sequence" is the formula he needed to be using, and not "Capain Ventris did this, because it was a super smart idea, even though it would make the Codex angry."

I have read all of the Ultramarines books and I enjoyed all of them very much. Dead Sky Black Sun and The Chapters Due in particular are very good! I reccommend them to anyone who likes 40k.

I believe McNeil quite often states via Calgar and the like that the marines who believe the whole 'The Codex Astartes is a giant flowchart on how to win battles' thing are simply bad marines.

I think it all fits into his Horus Heresy 'rules of engagement' story, where he tried that and it didn't work. So resolved to write the Codex Astartes as something different. The problem is, 10000 years is a long time and things get modified, updated and changed (much like some of the legends about the bible) where that is lost.

And it takes a good marine, eg Calgar, Sicarius and Ventris to realise this difference. However, there are other marines that just simply don't. I believe this is one of the big arguments about why Agemmon would be a bad chapter master for when Calgar pops his clogs.

And yes, there was a big hoohah in the second novel about breaking the rules of the Codex Astartes. However, it was quite justifiable.

EDIT: I remove my previous post. I haven't read the series so I ought not really be commenting in this thread if I were to stay on topic.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
That's more or less just 40k period though. I remember in one the of earlier Horus Heresy books, they talk about how Horus was a visionary for sending a squad of elite troops to infiltrate the enemy base and kill the commander.

Lolz.

I quite enjoyed it. That's about all I can say, other than reiterating my wish that there were official rules and a model for Uriel Ventris.

Well if you have previously read those 3 authors that you mentioned and like them than yes jump in and read it.

I enjoyed the books. They arnt the best of the 40k books Ive read but they are fun and a good read for sure

Veteran Sergeant, although I see where you are coming from, to be fair that is more of a criticism of the concept of the UM/Marines themselves, and how that universe has genereally been conceptualised, rather than McNeil's specific handling of them in this case.

For what it's worth, I think the series is good fun to read, and you actually get a bit of character development for the main protagonists (again - something that writers of Loyalist marines can sometimes fall down upon, it's very easy to make the characters just an automaton and characterless. You end up as the reader casually eating a bag of crisps as the 'hero' is fighting for their life). In terms of the OP's question, I preferred it to the Blood Angels Omnibus, and would say it's no better or worse than Bill King's Spaces Wolves omnibus (the latter didn't take itself too seriously, and was a great deal of fun to read).

I have read all 6 novels in the series, and i must say they were actually some of my favourite BL novels to have read. The Ultramarines series (the first 40k novels I read) were actually the first series of BL novels that I passed on to my dad to read (who knew nothing about the 40k universe and had never read any of these novels before) and he thoroughly enjoyed them. Uriel became his favourite character and McNeil one of his favourite BL authors since he has continued to read more and more novels from the HH and other Omnibuses.
Just a shame there isnt a Uriel Ventris model, but I have been meaning to add elements of the 4th company to my 2nd ever since reading them

The Ultramarines books are the middle-of-the barrel for GW. Above the vastly dismissed works like Redemption Corps & Warrior Brood, but not amongst the classics like Eisenhorn and Night Lords Trilogy. I would say the current Eldar books and the Word Bearers trilogy fall in a similar tier.