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So I am slowly building an IG army that is going to be a mix of gun line and air cav with an infantry platoon supported by tanks as the gun line and vet on valks as the cav. I am giving my vets melta guns so they can deal with any armour that they come across and I was wondering if I should swap out their lasguns for shotguns. Its free and gives them an assault weapon, which the melta already is. On the other hand I loose half the range and would have to find shotguns to use(I do have some SM scouts I can cannibalize though, might see if that would work). I figured that I should go ahead and use all of my resources and ask here.

Lasguns. Always lasguns. Rapid fire weaponry got buffed in 6e, and overwatch makes assaulting even less attractive.

The only advantage of shotguns is that you can assault after firing them (assuming you're not also firing plasma guns or the like). The important question here is: "Why would you want to?!"

I disagree. Go with shotguns. The extra range won't matter much on that squad. Who cares about 6 lasgun shots? The shotguns have the same range as the meltas, are the same during overwatch (2 shots), and in the occasional instance you want to assault, can put 12 shots down on your target before hand. That's not much for S3, AP-, but with BS4 it's probably killing a MEQ.

Biophysical wrote:I'm going to mention a bunch of things that lasguns and shotguns have in common, and claim them as advantages for shotguns. Then I'm going to say you can also assault with them, without answering the question of why a veteran squad should ever assault anything.

Melta vets= 3 melta guns, 6 shotguns, comander w pw and melta bombs (or give the squad demolitions if you really want to be annoying- but not highly recommended)

Plasma Vets= lasguns, 3 plasma guns, no pw. maybe a bolt pistol.


"why would you want to?!" HERES WHY: melt vets hop out of vendetta, melt rhino: a 5 man squad is inside, 1 dies in the explosion. 10vets (1 w pw) V.S 4 space marines? DO IT! why? because theyll shoot you to high hell in the next turn, and theyll win. If you assault them, you have an advantage, and could even take them out. Theres also a lot less casualties.

Another example? Melta vets pop out to kill that darn dreadnought: 3 melt guns, comander throws his melta bomb....then assault and pray for the best.

Leaving aside the fact that the vendetta is not an assault vehicle and you can't hop out of it and assault in the same turn...

Assaulting those marines will give them free overwatch. They'll kill your guys in the resulting combat, and will get a free consolidation move out of it -- oh, and then they're free to do something next turn. The marine commander should thank you for the favor.

And if you're shooting at a dreadnought, you're not going to be doing any good with lasguns OR shotguns. The lasguns could assault that dread just as easily by simply not firing.

Edit: And who puts a power weapon on their veterans, seriously?

I'm fairly sure you can't throw meltabombs...
...and you go ahead and assault the seven or eight grey hunters that will survive your meltavet unit's shotguns and meltaguns. Let me know how that works out for you.
For you to be able to assault, you're going to have to footslog it, or eat at least one turn of shooting when you disembark from a vehicle, so either way you're going to take casualties, most likely before you get within 12''.
(Actually, I'll save you the time and humiliation of testing, because I'm a nice person: It won't work out for you even remotely to assault grey hunters. They will laugh, chew you up, spit you out, and thank you for the free kill point and consolidation move.)

Veterans are objectively terrible in assault, there's almost no reason to ever assume you'll be assaulting anything, and the extra range from lasguns will do you many more favors than shotguns ever will.
In 5e, when the only difference between shotguns and lasguns on the move was that shotguns were assault but lasguns could be first rank second rank'd, you might have had a point.
In 6e, when lasguns have full double the range, you just don't have an excuse anymore unless you really like imitating the shotgun-cocking noise with your mouth when you roll to-hit dice. Go with the lasguns.


Assuming minimum-size squads of marines, and assuming that your enemy is going to forget the multiple rules that tell you how you can't assault out of a moving vehicle of ANY sort let alone a moving flier, is not the best way to make a flawed point.

Then I play warhammer different than every other person, because my melta vets are always up close and personal with the enemy. And the power weapon does a lot of damage, its saved the squad plenty of times.

You're not even going to get to use the power weapon before dedicated CC units tear your vets limb from limb, let alone half-dedicated stuff like Grey Hunters.

And if your veterans are always within 12'' of an enemy unit, every turn, and never only within 13-24'' of anything, then you are indeed playing Warhammer different from every other person. Maybe you're just playing on a really tiny table, so units start 18'' from each other when the game begins, then can move up 6'' and be within 12?
But for most people, assuming that you'll always be within assault range is folly.
And wanting to be in close combat with guardsmen, without the backup of a ton of extra bodies from blobbing, is extra folly. No matter how great your power weapon sarge is, he remains an I3 T3 5+ save model, with an AP3 weapon. So anything 2+ save, or anything I4+ with a lot of attacks, will bully your unit even if you do get to charge.

Honestly, the only situation where I do see assaulting with vets as viable would be minimum-size squads of normal vanilla space marines, without flamers.
And if your enemy runs vanilla marines in five man units without any form of countercharge strategy whatsoever? Hey, great! Just don't mistake your enemy being an idiot for your weapon choices being good.
For the record, anything that's worse initiative than you, like orks, will usually turn you into paste with its Overwatch. Or it will laugh off your inept little close combat strikes, like Necron Lychguard/Lords/Overlords.

I admit, I am curious. How exactly did you intend on getting within charging range of the opponent without using a vehicle to get there? Imperial Guard don't have access to any assault vehicles, open-topped transports or otherwise.

1. Shouldn't this be in General Discussion or Tactics?
2. I'd go with lasguns, especially in 6th. Shotguns are only good if you intend to assault afterwards, but Veterans are a shooting unit, and assault is worse in 6th. Also, lasguns are Rapid Fire, which is better than it was in 5th.

I'm saying that 6 S3 shots at 12"-24" aren't going to get anything done. 12 shotgun shots before charging might get things done. A meltavet squad outside a transport that it still alive (assumptions that are required for any discussion of small arms usefulness in that squad) is usually in an environment with small or weakened enemy squads, either because they are small scoring or firepower squads, or they are weakened front-line squads. Having the option to remove a MEQ or 3 GEQs before charging them (to deny/take an objective or tie up their firepower) is a useful tool to have in the toolbox. It's not often used, but it's a nice option, and will almost always be exactly the same as 6 lasguns. I've seen too many late game assaults with suboptimal squads have significant effects on game outcomes to believe that it's not worth giving a short-range unit a little edge in that department for almost zero opportunity cost.

Anyway, it probably won't matter one way or the other. Make what you think is cool.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Then I play warhammer different than every other person, because my melta vets are always up close and personal with the enemy. And the power weapon does a lot of damage, its saved the squad plenty of times.

Not every but it would seem most, at least. Like you I use a squad of melta vets with shotguns. I go the extra "what the crap is wrong with you?" mile and make them grenadiers for the carpace armor. I use them to deal with dedicated shooting units (devs/long fangs) and parking lotted tanks. Theyve done their job, and sone ot well, several times.

Plus shotguns add some variety to the otherwise static looking IG infantry.

I used shotguns almost exclusively in 5th edition. With the buffs to 6th edition (and the penalties to power weapons), lasguns still appear to be on top, especially if you can be lucky enough to have a CCS nearby for orders. Well, and assuming that for whatever twisted reason, FRFSRF is honestly the best order you have to give. Admittedly rare, but since I'm not ever going to charge a meltavet squad into a Terminator squad hoping to punk one last termie with a power sword ever again, lasguns are the way to be.

Biophysical wrote:I'm saying that 6 S3 shots at 12"-24" aren't going to get anything done. 12 shotgun shots before charging might get things done. A meltavet squad outside a transport that it still alive (assumptions that are required for any discussion of small arms usefulness in that squad) is usually in an environment with small or weakened enemy squads, either because they are small scoring or firepower squads, or they are weakened front-line squads. Having the option to remove a MEQ or 3 GEQs before charging them (to deny/take an objective or tie up their firepower) is a useful tool to have in the toolbox. It's not often used, but it's a nice option, and will almost always be exactly the same as 6 lasguns. I've seen too many late game assaults with suboptimal squads have significant effects on game outcomes to believe that it's not worth giving a short-range unit a little edge in that department for almost zero opportunity cost.

Anyway, it probably won't matter one way or the other. Make what you think is cool.

It takes 17 shotgun shots to reliably kill one MEQ. 12 shotgun shots before charging will not be getting anything done.

12 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = ~0.88

Depends on your definition of reliable, I guess.

12 shots at BS4 has a 68% chance of 5-9 hits.

5 hits has a 68% chance of 1-3 wounds. From the mean, you have about 2/3 a dead space marine. Maybe not so good.
9 hits has a 68% chance of 2-5 wounds. Here you have a mean of 4.5, which is on the cusp of killing a marine.

So it's just outside the first standard deviation that you deal enough wounds to a MEQ to kill it. It's still probably something I'd try for.

Source: Dropbox excel wound calculator

EDIT: I'm bad at links.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Then I play warhammer different than every other person, because my melta vets are always up close and personal with the enemy. And the power weapon does a lot of damage, its saved the squad plenty of times.

Your PW Sgt. will get challenged and then slaughtered before he can strike at I3, or he will decline the challenge and then not get to be a part of the combat. The days of ablative wounds for a hidden PW/PF are over.

helium42 wrote:

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Then I play warhammer different than every other person, because my melta vets are always up close and personal with the enemy. And the power weapon does a lot of damage, its saved the squad plenty of times.

Your PW Sgt. will get challenged and then slaughtered before he can strike at I3, or he will decline the challenge and then not get to be a part of the combat. The days of ablative wounds for a hidden PW/PF are over.

Maybe, or maybe he hits first against the powerfist in the other squad and wins. Upper bounds of first standard deviation for a WS 3 power weapon is still 3 hits. 1 wound is plausible.

This game is complicated now.

If the other squad is bringing a power fist, they're probably making a mistake. Power axes are 10 points cheaper and benefit from additional CCW attacks. Krak grenades also go a long way to filling the niche that powerfists used to fill.

Remember: A model with a power axe or power fist can forgo the bonuses from his power weapon to attack with his pistol or chainsword (see page 51). Your powersword model might hit on initiative 3, but my power axe wolf guard can still strike first. And with counter attack, he gets 4 attacks.

I've got a 75% chance of killing you. If you survive, you've got a 52% chance of killing me. That's about a 13% success rate.

You were right about one thing, though -- the game IS complicated now.

Ummmmm......Wow, That is a much more lively debate than I was anticipating. Anyways, thank you all for your help. I'll be posting a complete army list at some point in the future along with photos of my army as it comes along. In the mean time, just know that I went ahead and kept the lasguns. Thanks.