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Hey guys, the hive mind has been haunting my dreams and I think I'm going to dive back in to nids. They are just so solid in 6th in my opinion, And they get to do what I wanted them to do for the last three years.

Deathleaper popped up again. I screwed around with him in 5th. The -D3 leadership was fun, but ultimately, when he was very close to the enemy, he usually just fell over dead. A few things have changed in the edition crossover, and now he is looking sexier and sexier.

#1 psykers are better. That just makes -D3 leadership much better.
#2 he has stealth and shrouding now. When I saw the harlequins lose their spotting distance, I thought it was a nerf, but after playing a dozen games with them I realized that it is a major buff. Sure you can die when you are far away, but those point blank shots get seriously curtailed.
#3 the nerfs to vehicle survivability. A deathleaper can show up behind something, shoot at it, and be placed in such a way as to not be reached by counterassault, and then rock his 2+ cover, then he gets to hit on 3s and reroll 1s with 5 attacks on the charge. If he shot at the same thing again then charged it, and it is rear armor 10, it is very likely that its dead.

But really, more than those changes, i think his best buff is the change to scoring units and transports. See, I can keep deathleaper alive ALL DAY. when he shows up, just put him somewhere safe and disappear back into reserve. When turn 4 rolls around, you can place him in a safe but threatening spot, and wait to charge whatever wimpy 5 man troop choice just stepped out of their vehicle.

Even better is the turn 5 place followed by game-end contest. That was pretty hard in 5th, because people had so many transports that they could wall off placement in contesting range, with flyers, death stars, and hull points, it is far less likely that there will be tons of transports blocking off a successful contest-place.

He can eat overwatch all day long as long as he launches his charge from cover, there are more likely to be those incredibly juicy targets on the table, and he is twice as good at surviving that barrage of long fang missiles that shoot at him when he arrives behind them.

Also, running 9 hive guard is far less required than it was in 5th (thank the emperor), and so having that elite slot open isn't as much of a problem.

He would certainly make my list when mycetic spores finally come out (and they fix the independent character joining units in a spore BS rule). But I'm not sure that he doesn't just make all of my lists now. A farseer hit by -D3 leadership under shadows in the warp is not getting off fortune, and that pretty much means that your army is going to dominate the table center.

Has anyone had any tabletime experience in 6th with him? Or any other thoughts about how he fits into this changing game?

I used him at the end of 5th and in a tournament this weekend. He made his points when Eldrard failed every psychic test in one turn (even with Embolden re-rolls) and routed a fire warrior unit off the board. I lost the match because I missed out on the secondary and tertiary objectives, but Deathleaper was absolutely a star.

Sound great on paper, needs in game play.

I think he's worth his points, but Im not sure if he's worth an Elites slot. 2 Hive Guard are needed in my list, and then Venomthropes are top spot for the last slot... I intend to playtest him, a lot, but Im unsure if he'll be worth it. In my mind, Tyranids are great for Objectives, but we need to be able to get an edge in kill point games, which he doesnt do. He helps even more in objectives, which again we dont need...

I dropped my hive guard for Deathleaper and haven't looked back. With the mech nerf Nids don't need antimech quite as much.
Also you missed a few key bonuses.

He rends on a 5+.
He reduces movement through difficult terrain to 1D6.
He can direct hits and make challenges as he is a character.
He is great for removing things like runic weapons and RoW.
He has the equivalent of assault grenades so he hits at init. if he moves through cover.
He has hit and run so he can get out of combat after killing his target and dissapear.

So far loving him in 6th.

Shep wrote:
#2 he has stealth and shrouding now. When I saw the harlequins lose their spotting distance

Somewhat off-topic, but all harlequins still have the spotting distance thing via Shadowseer. It was not removed from any of the 3 types of harlequin.

He's such a strange unit.

Highest WS in the game, but T4 with only a 5+ armour save you need to kill the unit you assault and he only had 3 attacks, 4 on the charge.

He can't assault on arriving from DS so has to either survive a round of shooting, or immediately bounce back into reserves. Not sure how the nght fight shooting rule works here ...

On shooting, he has a S6 shot that rends on a 5 or 6, but only BS3 with 2 shots and a 6" range.

Seems his only real use is bouncing onto an objective in the last turn to contest (providing you go second) and the leadership hit on a psyker, but then again you might only get a -1.

Abilities just seem a bit too random for the points.

He has a 2+ cover save in 6th (as long as he pops up in area terrain).

He's a great support element for your nid army, and slaps psychics in the face to boot.

ruminator wrote:Highest WS in the game, but ....

Minor correction, he's only WS 9. So while he may be near the top, there are at least three units in the game with WS 10, Bloodthirsters, Skarbrand and an Eldar Avatar.

Shep wrote:Hey guys, the hive mind has been haunting my dreams and I think I'm going to dive back in to nids. They are just so solid in 6th in my opinion, And they get to do what I wanted them to do for the last three years.

I think deathleaper is awesome for the points you raise, but I'd want to see him in practice. I just don't agree with this assessment. Maybe I'm still building 5th edition lists, but how did the army become more solid when it got harder to assault?

I used him to leapfrog every turn and get mephiston to kill himself on a double ones with a 6(leadership 7 after the drop)

If you are going second he would be a great objective contestor

Also good for eating overwatch potentially, have him be in cover declare a charge and with that 2+ cover save he could either eat the overwatch or potentially get into combat and stop them from shooting.

daedalus wrote:I think deathleaper is awesome for the points you raise, but I'd want to see him in practice. I just don't agree with this assessment. Maybe I'm still building 5th edition lists, but how did the army become more solid when it got harder to assault?

Not sure how much harder it is to assault. It just takes a diffrent frame of thinking. Somethings did get nerfed (outflanking and fleet), some things got bettter (rage) and some things just went away (no-retreat). And for all this talk about overwatch and WoD, it generally means very little in actual gameplay (except when you fail to do the maths).

Nids are going to be one of the harder armies to relearn how to play. However once you find that groove they play like no other army.

daedalus wrote: Maybe I'm still building 5th edition lists, but how did the army become more solid when it got harder to assault?

Well, if you are building 5th edition lists still, then you should be a shooty army anyway right?

My most successful nid list in 5th edition was 9 hive guard, three tervigons and two rupture cannon t-fexes.

Nids biggest probelm in 5th edition was that the rules for transports, within the context of the mission objectives, were so over-the-top bonkers broken, that the metagame devolved into boxhammer. Nids neither had transports themselves, nor any adequate way of dealing with excesses of 10 vehicles. It made them an also-ran from the moment their book was released. But despite the imbalance, I was able to win local tournaments with nids.

Now, in 6th edition transports took a triple-combo of nerf-bat strikes. You can't score or deny with them, ouch... you can't score or deny with the unit inside them, OUCH, and the hardest they are to hit is on 3+s in close combat. It is a real testament to how overpowered they were, that they are still a functional list building choice even without their ability to interact with game objectives. Hull points also came in and smoothed out the life expectancy of vehicles. It is half as likely to explode on a pen but will die much more rapidly to glances.

Players are already moving to adjust to the transport changes. 40k is still a very deadly game, but now you are incentivized to field survivable units on foot that are looking to move to midfield and beyond. Enter the deathstar. Wound allocation has made it possible for units to exist in the firepower-centric world of 40k. These units look to push past relics for their troops to be able to pick them up, they look to move into enemy territory to deny objectives and to score linebreakers, and they look to do a lot of wholesale killing of enemy units. Vehicles are now included in units that can go down to a dedicated assault unit.

Tyranids didn't need that incentive to go on-foot, it is their only option. They now enjoy a 100% denial unit ratio, with no points tied up in vehicles. They now have twice as many anti-vehicle options, it is still always better to shoot open a tank and charge the infantry, but as a second option, beating the crap out of a vehicle in CC is an excellent and definitely 'new' option. And they can play the wound allocation death star game just as well as anyone. With T5 independent characters that are actually quite good, able to join a variety of deathstar options, and with the interactions between hive tyrants and tyrant guard being very favorable in the new wound allocation ruleset, Nids are ready to knuckle-up with any deathstars. Having a fairly consistent anti-psyker ability that can be used in addition to deny the witch is awesome. As is gaining access to some very awesome new psychic powers.

There is bad news of course, nids don't have solid purpose-built answers for flyers yet, and flyers seem to be a toned down version of what mech used to be last edition. Even so, the victory conditions of the book missions (and the tourney missions that are being created) feed right into tyranid strengths. Center table domination, with high toughness models.

There are a bunch of little details too, like the change to monstrous creature cover save requirements, smash, fear, hammer of wrath, challenges, the change to fearless, the change to rage, the addition of flying monstrous creatures, many of the powers in biomancy (iron arm, enfeeble, endurance, warp speed). All of this gets grafted on to models that are not any more expensive than they were in what was probably the worst case scenario edition.

I'm not saying to go out there and build MSU assault armies and re-define their codex, I'm saying, take some hive guard, take some tervigons with biomancy, take some primes and abuse look out sir to generate wound allocation, and take some twin-linked brainleech worms to shoot at flyers, It is working for people, and I can't wait to get my army painted to unleash it again.

Sorry I expanded on that question so much, I'll get back on topic.

daedalus wrote:

Shep wrote:Hey guys, the hive mind has been haunting my dreams and I think I'm going to dive back in to nids. They are just so solid in 6th in my opinion, And they get to do what I wanted them to do for the last three years.

I think deathleaper is awesome for the points you raise, but I'd want to see him in practice. I just don't agree with this assessment. Maybe I'm still building 5th edition lists, but how did the army become more solid when it got harder to assault?

Being able to premeasure everything. Hitting Vehicles on 3's. Fearless = Zero retreat wounds.

I wouldn't say it got harder to assault. The Big Bugs can generally take on overwatch and crump stuff. Little bugs die in droves (anyway)... just make more. Plenty of times in 6ed have I scared an opponent into overwatching a Trygon when assaulting with a Tyrgon + Gaunts, it is simply a matter of timing and mindgames*

*For example, pre-measuring Gaunt squad (nearby to squad A) to a random tank, electing a charge with Tervigon vs Squad A (eating an over watch) and then electing Gaunt squad to charge the same unit.

To summarise for the OP: TL-DR = Mind games are very useful, even if the gross potential of a specific unit (i.e. Deathleaper) is quite low.

Shep: That was perfect. Gave me just enough to dwell upon for quite a while. In 5th, I ran mostly stealershock Nids with a handful of Carnifexen/Zoans/Tyrannofexen for mech. My big schtick is "no tervigons, no hive guard, no netlisting". Obviously, Nids are very much so my 'casual' army, but 6th left me feeling very much so in the cold with respect to my 'stealers.

I will think about what you've said and give it some more thought. On topic, I do reiterate though that Deathleaper sounds like a win.

Gloomfang wrote:
Not sure how much harder it is to assault. It just takes a diffrent frame of thinking. Somethings did get nerfed (outflanking and fleet), some things got bettter (rage) and some things just went away (no-retreat).

Fleet got nerfed compared to old fleet, but compared to everyone else's assault options, I think it stands just as tall in this edition. Fleet takes a load of worry off every charge you attempt - it won't make you magically hit that unit 11" out unit (though it helps), but it makes that 6" out assault very nearly a sure thing.

Hollowman wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:
Not sure how much harder it is to assault. It just takes a diffrent frame of thinking. Somethings did get nerfed (outflanking and fleet), some things got bettter (rage) and some things just went away (no-retreat).

Fleet got nerfed compared to old fleet, but compared to everyone else's assault options, I think it stands just as tall in this edition. Fleet takes a load of worry off every charge you attempt - it won't make you magically hit that unit 11" out unit (though it helps), but it makes that 6" out assault very nearly a sure thing.

Yeah, but what is deathleaper honestly going to assault? If he hits a vehicle he's then sat there for the contents to chew him up next turn. Infantry, if they've more than 4 models they will get to hit back and that 5+ armour save is doing nothing for you.

He's a unit that only works in one phase - the movement phase and a potential -1 Ld on one enemy psyker is not really worth 140 pts to me.

ruminator wrote: ...a potential -1 Ld on one enemy psyker is not really worth 140 pts to me.

It's not potential -1 LD, it's guaranteed -(1-3) Ld.

That being said, Deathleaper is a fantastic unit if used correctly. He is not a hammer, nor is he a tank, but he definitely has uses. Popping up anywhere to contest objectives, handicapping psykers, slowing enemy units, assassinating models, tying up that HW team, etc. His Ld hit on an enemy model got a serious buff with 6e psykers. Not just with Psykers getting more popular/powerful and therefore more valuable to hinder, but in making enemy warlords more vulnerable to our psykers and reducing their abilities to give orders, etc. You wouldn't call it an anti-psyker ability when your non-psyker warlord has to make his ID test against Boneswords with -3 Ld, ouch!

I was already planning to get Deathleaper for exactly the reason in the OP - the auto pop up and contest an objective on turn 5 and the -D3 leadeship against enemy psykers. His combat abilties are largely secondary.

Also thinking of mawlocs in combination with him, they can disappear and return on the last turn as well, if 2 enemy objectives are near each other then have deathleaper come on near one at the back end of the game, and stay safe with 2+ cover save, then the next turn you can safely bring back the mawloc nearby as well, denying 2 objectives.

60mm wrote:

ruminator wrote: ...a potential -1 Ld on one enemy psyker is not really worth 140 pts to me.

It's not potential -1 LD, it's guaranteed -(1-3) Ld.

That being said, Deathleaper is a fantastic unit if used correctly. He is not a hammer, nor is he a tank, but he definitely has uses. Popping up anywhere to contest objectives, handicapping psykers, slowing enemy units, assassinating models, tying up that HW team, etc. His Ld hit on an enemy model got a serious buff with 6e psykers. Not just with Psykers getting more popular/powerful and therefore more valuable to hinder, but in making enemy warlords more vulnerable to our psykers and reducing their abilities to give orders, etc. You wouldn't call it an anti-psyker ability when your non-psyker warlord has to make his ID test against Boneswords with -3 Ld, ouch!

Potentially only -1 then ... if it was -3 Ld off the bat then I'm maybe interested, but that's only a 1 in 3 chance. For 140 points and an elite slot his use is very situational. Contesting last turn only works if you go second, if you go first the opponent gets a turn to shoot him.

For the points I'm looking at more points than Doom in a Spore and just less than 2 zoeys in a spore or 3 hive guard. The other choices just seem too compelling to me.

Can the deathleaper contest last turn now? I though only troops could contest?

ruminator wrote:Contesting last turn only works if you go second, if you go first the opponent gets a turn to shoot him.

With a 2+ cover save it's not that big a deal.

Niiai wrote:Can the deathleaper contest last turn now? I though only troops could contest?

Yes, any scoring or 'denial' unit may contest.

Currently in the tyranid book, only Ripper swarms and Skyslasher swarms may not score, or contest.


Edit to add:

While I would not send deathleaper into close combat with a 10 man grey hunter unit, or a full sanguinary guard squad, he does great vs ratlings, scouts, 5 man devastator or tactical squad units, etc. Any unit with a large number of attacks will score enough hits/wounds to make his 5+ armor save fail him. I think for the points in addition to all his other cool tricks, he should have a 3++ or 4++ in close combat, to represent his quick speed.

To the other mentioned reasons for death leaper, I agree. Last-turn contesting, harassing enemy psykers (even using D.Leaper as his intended purpose to "challenge" IC's, kill them, and then hit-and-run out of cc) and rending on 5+ are all nice tricks.

Am i wrong, or does an enemy charging death leaper roll 1 less dice if they're in terrain, thus making their assault move only 2D6 drop the highest?

daedalus wrote:... My big schtick is "no tervigons, no hive guard, no netlisting". ... .

+1 yeah

The DL is difficult to use and not a "point-and-kill" unit for sure.
I combined him successfully with the Doom.
I also used him for multcharges (ie. : DL stays in area, declares assault and gets the overwatch - easily dodged-, letting the nearby unit of stealers assault safely). Though timing here is a bit touchy to manage.

If you use him "just" for the Ld malus and objective denial, well yeah he will be a bit overcosted - he needs to be used also as a support unit.

I will say that there is one of the nastiest anti-IG blob squad combo's in the game requires DL. And it can quite litteraly destroy HUGE amounts of troops.

If your opponent has a Lord Commisar use DL's ability on him. It drops his LD. All units within 6" MUST use his leadership for all tests. He is usually in the biggest blob of troops.

Then take the Doom in a pod. Drop Cata. for Shriek (you can default to it so you get it automatically).

Drop the Doom near the nerfed LD bubble. Then use both Shriek and his normal power to just watch units die.

Worse part for the IG player is that wounds have to get allocated to the closest and he can't just choose to remove the Lord. do it right and he is stuck with him.

tetrisphreak wrote:Am i wrong, or does an enemy charging death leaper roll 1 less dice if they're in terrain, thus making their assault move only 2D6 drop the highest?

The codex mentions "when moving through terrain", I am not sure it includes the assault move.

'When moving in terrain' seems to mean 'during the movement phase' these days.

Whoever said he has 3 attacks, look again, he has 4 attacks on each page of the codex that he appears.

I haven't seen whether or not he is a character. he doesn't seem to be listed in the appendix of the big book.

In my opinion, and I haven't been able to math this out, fleet is BETTER than before. Particularly when moving through difficult terrain. There have been many times where I have been able to manipulate that third dice to get long charges of around 8 or 9 just with the fleet roll. Roll three dice, You're pretty likely to get something like a 5 or 6, reroll the others, and then drop, it is great protection against difficult terrain fail, and it singlehandedly saves you from those mega-fail snake eyes, and extends your charge range on average of 1-2 inches. If you look at random charge range, and consider your ability to manipulate die rolls with fleet, your overall threat isn't even reduced, whatever your move value is, plus a manipulated 2D6", versus your move +6 +D6. I'd love to see some math on it, but I posit that whatever minor decrease in potential charge distance is easily erased by the smoothing out of the bell curve on random charge rolls. Not even considering that on turns where you aren't charging or shooting, you get to re-roll your run roll. (this is a LOT less relevant for death leaper who will be shooting, shooting+charging or disappearing every turn)

Ultimately, as Jihallah said, "needs more playtest"

No special characters are in the back of the book. In the BRB pg 110 (if i remember right) anything that is Unique and has a name is considered a character even if they are not an IC. Covers things like Mephiston and Deathleaper.

Gloomfang wrote:No special characters are in the back of the book. In the BRB pg 110 (if i remember right) anything that is Unique and has a name is considered a character even if they are not an IC. Covers things like Mephiston and Deathleaper.

Awesome! One more in that column of "mostly good news" for deathleaper.