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Just wondering...if you put the costs aside, is there any moment where the HMG is worse than a Sniper Rifle ?
By having a board filled with terrain, I can't imagine a situation where you can really benefit from the sniper rifle' small range bonus.
Am I right or is there something I'm not seeing ? (I know HMG usually (always?) cost more points and SWC)

Is it only used when you want a longer than basic rifle weapon but don't have HMG option on the model ?

I guess the fact that most Snipers are Multi or Viral does help. After all, you don't see many Multi/Viral HMGs.

MULTI Sniper Rifles are better in ARO than HMGs. MULTI vs. Normal may not seem like a fair comparison, but nearly all models/units have those options to choose from, as MULTI HMGs are normally available only to TAGs.

Double Action ammo in ARO makes a pretty significant difference in terms of effectiveness.

I mainly play Ariadna and Haqqislam =(
Only basic sniper rifles =(
Aside from the Cateran and Lasiq Sniper

Von Skyfury wrote:I mainly play Ariadna and Haqqislam =(
Only basic sniper rifles =(
Aside from the Cateran and Lasiq Sniper

Whelp, then what The CF said holds true - unless you're getting some kind of special ammo or price decrease, the HMG out-performs the Sniper Rifle in nearly all cases.

There are many advantages of the sniper rifle.

Of course, if you have a terrain set-up of very dense boxes all on one level, that advantage is reduced, but let's imagine a more varied table with some (but perhaps hard to reach 'vantage points').
- Sniper units often have some manoeuvrability bonus, which helps them get a good shot. The Lasiqs climbing plus, or the Naga or the Nomad Spektr's Thermoptic camouflage, all helps them to get a good tactical advantage.
- Often these units have a higher BS, with range bonus of the sniper rifle. This gives an added bonus with ARO attacks, and these same units often have good defensive abilities as well.
- As has been mentioned, the varied ammo possible with the sniper rifle. Even a heavy infantry will think twice before taking his chances running in view of a Lasiq with viral sniper rifle.
- Even more 'basic' units (using Haqqislam as an example, as Von Skyfury uses them) such as the Djanbazan can be useful. His Multi-spectral visor means Optical disruption units will fear him - and you can stick him on a flank, knowing that his regenerate ability can keep him in the fight and away from a doctor. Even an 18pt and 0.5swc ghulam sniper is a great way to use up that final swc value and any points left over, the Al'Hawwa a slightly more expensive (but really cool model!) alternative with a few extra bonuses.

Von Skyfury, I would definitely not pack that sniper rifle away just yet. I agree the HMG is also an excellent weapon, but they each have their own uses and advantages. Ideally, I would say having at least 1 of each in your force would be a good move.

Lasiq's Viral Sniper is a great weapon. I think it would be the only sniper I would field if I had some Haqqi HMGs.

Cateran's T2 Sniper Rifle is pretty good too. But AP HMGs and Portatile Autocannons are too good

Heh, no way I'm putting away all these sniper rifles, they are way too pretty for that =)

I was just wondering if there was something I was missing (now that I think of it, many sniper rifle model don't have a HMG loadout)
I might just find there should be a greater difference in the range brackets between HMG and Sniper rifle.
But don't worry, I'm not excluding anything ! Hell, even the scout with Ojotnik will see some play =P

Oh, I have both Scouts with Ojotniks too. I haven't still played with Ariadna, buy I'd like to give'em a try definitely.

I suppose a sniper would be better as a reactive shooter than an hmg. You can have a sniper set up with aros in mind, but doing the same with an hmg means you missing out on a lot more shots

Shae-Konnit wrote:I suppose a sniper would be better as a reactive shooter than an hmg. You can have a sniper set up with aros in mind, but doing the same with an hmg means you missing out on a lot more shots

I thought that's why you put your HMG in Surpressive Fire mode down a corridor. Doesn't that give him/her his/her full 4 shots with it?

Slarg232 wrote:

Shae-Konnit wrote:I suppose a sniper would be better as a reactive shooter than an hmg. You can have a sniper set up with aros in mind, but doing the same with an hmg means you missing out on a lot more shots

I thought that's why you put your HMG in Surpressive Fire mode down a corridor. Doesn't that give him/her his/her full 4 shots with it?

Yes, it does. But when you do it you're pretty much pressing your opponent to go through alternate routes. Then you might have a sniper covering that alternate routes

Erasoketa wrote:
Yes, it does. But when you do it you're pretty much pressing your opponent to go through alternate routes. Then you might have a sniper covering that alternate routes

Plus, that sniper moving around can still put his ARO to good use, but moving an HMG around and putting down suppressive fire is a bit more order-expensive.

I have three sniper rifles in my team, but I got them mainly for infiltration and mines.

These weapons come on different units.

Heavier units, usually HI or MI with decent armor or AD troops get HMGs.
Lighter, more mobile units meant for attacking oftentimes get Spitfires (essentially LMGs).
Sneaky infiltrating/camouflage units get Sniper rifles.

It's not common that a unit profile gets access to both Sniper Rifles and HMGs.

When discussing the uses of snipers and HMGs, assuming no differences in ammo type (as you see on a lot of Ariadna units), well, not taking cost in to consideration is actually missing the primary difference. If we are talking MULTI snipers (or any other sniper with specialized ammo) and the like then they obviously have their uses (much better ARO weapons) compared to HMGs. But you say you play Ariadna, so the difference between a bog standard HMG and bog standard sniper is price.

A para-commando with an HMG is 32 points an 1 SWC, with a sniper it is 29 points and only 0.5 SWC. Tank Hunter with an AP HMG is 40 points and 1.5 SWC, with an AP sniper it is only 33 points and 1 SWC. A Zouave with an HMG is 31 points and 1.5 SWC, with a sniper he is down to 28 points and 0.5 SWC (wow that is a big savings actually). These are the only Ariadna units that actually have the choice between an HMG and a sniper. Beyond that, most sniper-only units have infiltration, AD and/or camo. Those with access to only HMGs tend to be less subtle.

So to answer the question for Ariadna the reason you take a normal sniper over an HMG on the three units that have both options is to save on SWC. When discussing why you would take any troop with an HMG over any troop with a sniper rifle, it tends to come down to troops with sniper-only options tend to be stealthier or more prone to ambush tactics while those that get HMGs tend to be front-line types that are meant to attack targets head-on.

When asking the question about armies that are not Ariadna, the answer is largely the same (very few units have options for both) with the caveat that non-Ariadna force tend to have access to MULTI snipers as standard which makes them superior ARO weapons. Haqqislam is the only other faction that has access to normal HMGs and snipers on troops and they follow Ariadna's trend. Either they get an SWC discount (and a small point discount) or they get special ammo types for them (in their case Viral is the popular one). In their case it is the Ghulam, Djanbazan and Ragiks that get an option for both (and always get discounts for the downgrade).

Price (both SWC and cost) is always a factor here. Getting a long-range weapon for 0.5-1 SWC less is never a truly bad idea. There is a reason Keisotsu Butai are popular with Yu Jing and it isn't always the low initial price (only two points isn't a huge selling point compared to the Kuang Shi after all). More often than not it is because they can grab MLs and HMGs for 0.5 SWC. If you grab a lot of HI support weapons you can run out of SWC quickly. Sniper rifles help you fill out with more long-range weapons without wasting a lot of SWCs. Taken in that light HMGs are more like luxuries when you can afford the SWC expenditure. But if you want to pack in more long-range, defensive firepower the basic sniper is a good choice in support weapon.

Alternatively it outperforms it (in terms of bonuses) at 33-36", 49-52" and 97-104".

Something thing I love about this game. Two words "It Depends". There's no or very little black and white.

 Absolutionis wrote:
These weapons come on different units.

Heavier units, usually HI or MI with decent armor or AD troops get HMGs.
Lighter, more mobile units meant for attacking oftentimes get Spitfires (essentially LMGs).
Sneaky infiltrating/camouflage units get Sniper rifles.

It's not common that a unit profile gets access to both Sniper Rifles and HMGs.

Tiger Soldiers get both! And i love them!