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From what I gather, Flyers arrive no sooner than turn two. that means that your opponent can spend turn one trying to destroy your AA for his flyer later in the game. So, to avoid injury, and to be in the right place at the right time, would it make sense to drop something like 400-500 points on a drop pod containing 4 HB wielding Dev Squad and Lysander make much sense? mind you, I ask because I don't have many models to work with. i only have 2 rhinos that could stand in for the various tanks of the SM codex, 2 land speeders, and two dreadnaughts. besides that i have something like 40-50 marines, 5 assault marines, 5 terminators, and a few characters. myself and those I play with are not opposed to me using proxy as long as the model is the same base size as it is representing. (had a cygnar lancer warjack to represent lysander in my last game )

or could someone with the new rule book tell me if SM have any skyfire units? otherwise im looking at any str 5-6 TL spam...

thank!

No. First, and this seems to be a common misconception, but when forced to use Snapfire, Heavy Bolters are hurt just as bad as all other heavy weapon options (for C:SM at least).

Most fliers have AV 11 or 12. In the former case, you're averaging 2 hits, for .33 HP a turn. In short, it would take your squad the entire game to kill an AV 11 2 HP flier. Dropping in Lysander is less effective than just buying another squad of them, if they're the same cost (I'm not sure off the top of my head). And if the flier is AV 12, which many of the most dangerous ones are (Vendettas, Storm Ravens), you can't even hurt them.

With your list, I'd suggest either making an Aegis Defense Line and proxy a Quad Gun, or turn one of your Dreadnoughts into the Skyfire Dreadnought from Forge World, if your group allows.

The only exception is if you are trying to hit a flying MC.

Ricter wrote:No. First, and this seems to be a common misconception, but when forced to use Snapfire, Heavy Bolters are hurt just as bad as all other heavy weapon options (for C:SM at least).

Most fliers have AV 11 or 12. In the former case, you're averaging 2 hits, for .33 HP a turn. In short, it would take your squad the entire game to kill an AV 11 2 HP flier. Dropping in Lysander is less effective than just buying another squad of them, if they're the same cost (I'm not sure off the top of my head). And if the flier is AV 12, which many of the most dangerous ones are (Vendettas, Storm Ravens), you can't even hurt them.

With your list, I'd suggest either making an Aegis Defense Line and proxy a Quad Gun, or turn one of your Dreadnoughts into the Skyfire Dreadnought from Forge World, if your group allows.

The only exception is if you are trying to hit a flying MC.

I was actually working on a scratch build quad gun the just the other day. just need to know how much fence i get out of the defense line. a dreadnaught with skyfire intrigues me. where can i find the rules for that?

The Contemptor Mortis has its rules in imperial armour aeronautica.

I think the best SM answer to fliers is the Stormtalon. It's very good against fliers.

lunarman wrote:I think the best SM answer to fliers is the Stormtalon. It's very good against fliers.

This. Stormtalons are pretty good anti-air fighters.

While the Stormtalon is great killing one enemy flier, it is not a good solution against a heavy flier list. You may alpha down one flier, but you'll be easily wrecked next turn.

Further, just about everyone is bringing tools to bring down 1-2 fliers. Running a Stormtalon by itself isn't enough saturation and it is difficult to get its points back against opponents without fliers.

Doomhunter wrote:The Contemptor Mortis has its rules in imperial armour aeronautica.

Isn't the Contemptor Mortis' rules in Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2? It's 40k Approved.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-APOCALYPSE-SECOND-EDITION.html

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/RELIC-CONTEMPTOR-DREADNOUGHT-BODY.html

Considering they link to each other... And considering the Contemptor Mortis is in the book right infront of me...

Anyways, there are Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts as well as Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts. The Tarantula's are also Anti Air, some Forgeworld brand Land Raiders/Whirlwinds, Aegis Quadguns, etc.

Crazyterran wrote:

Doomhunter wrote:The Contemptor Mortis has its rules in imperial armour aeronautica.

Isn't the Contemptor Mortis' rules in Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2? It's 40k Approved.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-APOCALYPSE-SECOND-EDITION.html

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/RELIC-CONTEMPTOR-DREADNOUGHT-BODY.html

Considering they link to each other... And considering the Contemptor Mortis is in the book right infront of me...

Yes they are in there to (I use one), the latest iteration is in aeronautica.

Doomhunter wrote:
Yes they are in there to (I use one), the latest iteration is in aeronautica.

Any idea if the rules are different from IA:2nd? I already own that one.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Doomhunter wrote:
Yes they are in there to (I use one), the latest iteration is in aeronautica.

Any idea if the rules are different from IA:2nd? I already own that one.

I think there are slight stat and option changes, I still use IA 2nd's rules

Twin linked autocannon dreads would be okay. Biggest weakness of flier heavy lists is lack of board presence( for objectives and the like)

I think the best thing against them is have a strong board presence, hide, play to the objective and do what you can to minimized its ability to kill your units.

Leth wrote:Twin linked autocannon dreads would be okay. Biggest weakness of flier heavy lists is lack of board presence( for objectives and the like)

I think the best thing against them is have a strong board presence, hide, play to the objective and do what you can to minimized its ability to kill your units.

That works, but as you say, only against flier heavy lists.

It's one or two fliers that are much more of an issue for an army that has no answer to fliers. Since they are free to pick your stuff apart while being invulnerable themselves, and not crippling their own army while doing so.

This may be a obvious but can't we use flakk missiles in our mls? Since the rules for them are detailed in the reference section of the BRB? Spamming str 7 ap 4 skyfire missiles seems fine to me...

I was also thinking of running triple storm talons with my drop pods. At 1850 points I can still get around 40 marine bodies and two dreads on the ground while my flyers can (hopefully) take down any opposing air force.

Unfortunately no one has access to Flakk Missiles yet. They are in the rulebook, but there aren't listed as available ammo for any Missile Launchers. That might get FAQ'd later, you know, after everyone has bought tons of fliers .

Doomhunter wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Doomhunter wrote:
Yes they are in there to (I use one), the latest iteration is in aeronautica.

Any idea if the rules are different from IA:2nd? I already own that one.

I think there are slight stat and option changes, I still use IA 2nd's rules

Ok, thanks.

I'll have to check the Aeronautica book to see which one is slightly better. Since he's 215pts now, might as well get the better one down the road, no?

Unfortunately no one has access to Flakk Missiles yet. They are in the rulebook, but there aren't listed as available ammo for any Missile Launchers. That might get FAQ'd later, you know, after everyone has bought tons of fliers .

Dang that seems pretty silly to me. Oh well my buddies will probably just agree to allow the use of flakk missiles in our games and if not I just have to depend on my stormtalons.

Ricter wrote:Further, just about everyone is bringing tools to bring down 1-2 fliers. Running a Stormtalon by itself isn't enough saturation and it is difficult to get its points back against opponents without fliers.

Who said anything about only bringing one? Bring 3. And where are you getting the idea that it won't get its points back unless facing enemy flyers? With TL AC, and either TL HB, TML, and Skyhammers, it can do some greatly anti-infantry, and has the option to Hover Strike if necessary.

Crazyterran wrote:

Doomhunter wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Doomhunter wrote:
Yes they are in there to (I use one), the latest iteration is in aeronautica.

Any idea if the rules are different from IA:2nd? I already own that one.

I think there are slight stat and option changes, I still use IA 2nd's rules

Ok, thanks.

I'll have to check the Aeronautica book to see which one is slightly better. Since he's 215pts now, might as well get the better one down the road, no?

They only things updated are the targeting rules for 6ED (instead of AA mount, skyfire and interceptor when stationary) and having 3 Hull points).

Everything else point wise, options and stats are exactly the same as IA:A 2E.

As others have said, try the Stormtalon. Proxy the Aegis Defence Line with an AA gun and bring a Stormtalon.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Ricter wrote:Further, just about everyone is bringing tools to bring down 1-2 fliers. Running a Stormtalon by itself isn't enough saturation and it is difficult to get its points back against opponents without fliers.

Who said anything about only bringing one? Bring 3. And where are you getting the idea that it won't get its points back unless facing enemy flyers? With TL AC, and either TL HB, TML, and Skyhammers, it can do some greatly anti-infantry, and has the option to Hover Strike if necessary.

No one clarified the number - so I said that taking one isn't a good option.

And nearly everyone is bringing some anti-flier defense. Quad guns, Hydras, psykers, etc. If you just have one target, it'll be taken down rather easily. It's the same saturation idea that applies for everything else - light vehicles, heavy vehicles, etc.

I'm personally bringing three stormtalons in my DP list there extra fire power will work wonders against almost anything and will shoot down most other flyers as well. the only problem is stormravens that 12 armour all around is seriously hard for almost all the anti air firepower to even dent.
I really wish vanilla marines could get these too but oh well.

FallenAfh wrote:They only things updated are the targeting rules for 6ED (instead of AA mount, skyfire and interceptor when stationary) and having 3 Hull points).

Everything else point wise, options and stats are exactly the same as IA:A 2E.

Wow, is that for all Mortis pattern dreads or just the contemptor mortis?

If your really worried about them, try taking 2 squads of missile devastators, and a librarian epistolary in power armor.

Take the divination primaris power, prescience. Cast it twice, once on each dev squad. 8x twin linked missile shots should result in like 2 hits, and stands a decent chance of killing / crippling them.

Also, if you play in a game without fliers, they are still pretty good.

Horst wrote:If your really worried about them, try taking 2 squads of missile devastators, and a librarian epistolary in power armor.

Take the divination primaris power, prescience. Cast it twice, once on each dev squad. 8x twin linked missile shots should result in like 2 hits, and stands a decent chance of killing / crippling them.

Also, if you play in a game without fliers, they are still pretty good.

Vanilla SM libbys can't get divination.
You can't cast the same power twice a turn either

Doomhunter wrote:

Horst wrote:If your really worried about them, try taking 2 squads of missile devastators, and a librarian epistolary in power armor.

Take the divination primaris power, prescience. Cast it twice, once on each dev squad. 8x twin linked missile shots should result in like 2 hits, and stands a decent chance of killing / crippling them.

Also, if you play in a game without fliers, they are still pretty good.

Vanilla SM libbys can't get divination.
You can't cast the same power twice a turn either

those poor vanilla bastards.

Play blood angels!

And why can't you cast the same power twice a turn? I'm fairly sure you can.

Horst wrote:

Doomhunter wrote:

Horst wrote:If your really worried about them, try taking 2 squads of missile devastators, and a librarian epistolary in power armor.

Take the divination primaris power, prescience. Cast it twice, once on each dev squad. 8x twin linked missile shots should result in like 2 hits, and stands a decent chance of killing / crippling them.

Also, if you play in a game without fliers, they are still pretty good.

Vanilla SM libbys can't get divination.
You can't cast the same power twice a turn either

those poor vanilla bastards.

Play blood angels!

And why can't you cast the same power twice a turn? I'm fairly sure you can.

BRB, pg67, Manifesting Psychic Powers.
A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once each turn - even if the manifestation attempt was not successfull.

Damn rules, getting in the way of my cunning plans.

Humbaba wrote:This may be a obvious but can't we use flakk missiles in our mls? Since the rules for them are detailed in the reference section of the BRB? Spamming str 7 ap 4 skyfire missiles seems fine to me...

I was also thinking of running triple storm talons with my drop pods. At 1850 points I can still get around 40 marine bodies and two dreads on the ground while my flyers can (hopefully) take down any opposing air force.

When the new codex releases they are going to add the skyfire options to the ML iirc.

Horst wrote:Damn rules, getting in the way of my cunning plans.

Still not that cunning given that even if you could do it, for the cost of two Devastator Squads and a Librarian, they would combined that down 1HP a turn on average on Ravens, Valkyries, and Dragons. The thing people don't seem to realise is sure you can spend all these resources to down a flyer with using AA, but then you are wasting the potential of those resources by not using them on things they are actually good at.

3 Stormtalons are fine, though having allied Guard with an Astropath and Officer of the Fleet helps them a lot.