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Ok, so I've been hearing, both on Dakka and in real life, that Shoota Boyz are far superior to their Slugga and Choppa weilding brethren in 6th Edition. This was an annoyingly harsh truth to face for me, being the owner of 50 Slugga Boyz and only a mere 10 Shoota Boyz, however, I still wasn't quite sure if Slugga Boyz were actually that bad.

Firstly, I've been hearing a lot about 'Shoota-Wagons'. Essentially, stick 20 Shoota Boyz in a Battlewagon, zoom round and Snap-Shot stuff. Sounds pretty good huh? A fast shooting platform, whose shooters don't lose much from Snap-Shooting. Well, I did some Mathammer (I know, I know), and, on average, this 'Shoota-Wagon' will kill 1 MEQ (not counting the Wagon's weapons because Slugga Boyz would get that too). Ok, sure it would kill more, say, Guard, but 1 Marine? For 210 Points, minimum? Really? So, unless I'm missing something, I can't see how this is useful in any way.

Another concept I've heard of is simply using Shoota Boyz as you would with Slugga Boyz (assault stuff), but, thanks to Overwatch and shooting in general you can rack up more kills overall. I have to say, I like this concept more. So, you can shoot on your way in and then get to fire back if assaulted next turn (presuming you rout your opposition), which benefits you as you'll be out in the open. Well, again, I did some Mathammer, in a made up sitaution where 19 Boyz (I didn't count the Nob) of each variety, shoot a unit of 10 Tac Marines, Assaulted it (presume that the Tacs fall back), are then charged by another unit of 10 Tac Marines, Overwatched and then played out that Assault. The result was that the Slugga Boyz did more damage overall, despite sustaining more casualties. I guess Shootas might be more useful against lesser-armoured things, thanks to their AP, but MEQs are always a good foundation and my meta is mainly MEQ-dominated anyways.

So yes, I think I might be missing something. I haven't actually read the rules yet (I know, I know) but have picked up a pretty decent grasp from games I've played at my FLGS. I kinda hope I'm not missing something, but I think I may be - surely the interwebz cannot be wrong?! Someone care to enlighten me?

Thanks in advance

This has been discussed to death, and the general consensus is that shoota boys have an edge in 6th.

I still run Choppa boys because my gameplan is the same. Drive my battlewagons up, have them leap out and then charge. If that's all you want to do with them, they're just fine for that. What makes Shoota boys the better option now is that they're more tactically flexible. Instead of only being able to do one thing, they can do a lot. Between snap shots and overwatch, your ability to play the positional control game with Shootas got a lot lot better. Therefore, a lot of players will like them more because you can do more stuff with them.

Call me old fashioned, but I still prefer my cc Orks, and I'm not losing too much sleep over the changes to 6th edition.

This was true in 5th edition too, although not as much.

Realistically, it isn't a huge deal. But there are distinct advantages to having some 24" shooting. Overwatch for one.

overwatch, no longer being able to assault after running, and the actual minor difference between having one extra shot at range and one extra attack in CC are what make Shootas superior.


Again, its a relativly minor difference. Slugga boyz are in no way bad. The loss of Fearless wounds really helped them out.

It is harder to protect the PK but that applies to Shootas as much as Sluggas.

I thought Shootas were 18"?
What is the 24" that you are talking about?

oops. Forgot they were only 18", still doesn't change anything though.

Grey Templar wrote:Again, its a relativly minor difference. Slugga boyz are in no way bad. The loss of Fearless wounds really helped them out.

It is harder to protect the PK but that applies to Shootas as much as Sluggas.

QFT. My Choppa boyz have been doing okay even in 6th. Shooa boyz are used differently, and those uses were buffed for 6th, making them better than they were before. And they were already good in 5th.

Okay, that's good to hear, just worried I was missing something you see.

I take the point about the tatical flexibility, it sure seems helpful, but I reckon I'll stick with my Slugga Boyz

Thanks a lot for your replies

Makutsu wrote:I thought Shootas were 18"?
What is the 24" that you are talking about?

6"move+18" firing range=24" range

I still put Sluggas in transports to assault, but now that I can pre-measure, I move my Shoota Boyz on foot between 15" and 18" away from an enemy unit and just shoot them without assaulting or worrying too much about getting assaulted.

This has been done to death as already has been mentioned
/thread

If they are in trukks you probably will not get a chance to shoot, so slugga boyz are probably for the best.

Then battlewagons I like to death roll, where the boyz can not assault but they can shoot.

AoBR models should be dirt cheap right now, they come with big shootas. I would be happy to field a few slugga boyz if I happened to get some dirt cheap.
Actually they fit burna boyz parts quite well, I think I would do this instead if you do find a good deal
[koptas make good rocket buggies and nobz make good parts for even better nobs including nob bikers, Warboss could do with an attack squig(available in the nob boxset,)else the warboss sits nicely on a warbike for true awesomeness.

The Shadow wrote:Ok, so I've been hearing, both on Dakka and in real life, that Shoota Boyz are far superior to their Slugga and Choppa weilding brethren in 6th Edition. This was an annoyingly harsh truth to face for me, being the owner of 50 Slugga Boyz and only a mere 10 Shoota Boyz, however, I still wasn't quite sure if Slugga Boyz were actually that bad.

Firstly, I've been hearing a lot about 'Shoota-Wagons'. Essentially, stick 20 Shoota Boyz in a Battlewagon, zoom round and Snap-Shot stuff. Sounds pretty good huh? A fast shooting platform, whose shooters don't lose much from Snap-Shooting. Well, I did some Mathammer (I know, I know), and, on average, this 'Shoota-Wagon' will kill 1 MEQ (not counting the Wagon's weapons because Slugga Boyz would get that too). Ok, sure it would kill more, say, Guard, but 1 Marine? For 210 Points, minimum? Really? So, unless I'm missing something, I can't see how this is useful in any way.

Ah, the point is not to drive around the board and wait for them to blow up. They do that in addition to whatever those boyz were doing anyways. As you can disembark and ram on the same turn anymore you often find yourself choosing between assaulting a transport or ramming it. For shoota boyz you can safely ram a transport and then cause that 1 MEQ (or - iirc - 3 GEQ or 4 orks) casualties on the disembarked unit. Sluggas do half as much. Now when someone attempts to charge your battlewagon, they take overwatch fire from your boyz, resulting in that many casualties, again. On top of that, you no longer have to decide between shooting and using the Waagh!. You can always shoot before assaulting, reducing the casualties you take before you strike. After casualties, all those bonus attacks from your surviving boyz do not amount to much more than one MEQ casualty either - but you can't get that extra casualty as often as the extra shooting from shootaz, because close combat kills off a bunch of your boyz. If you care about the exact math, I have done it in the huge thread about orks.

Another concept I've heard of is simply using Shoota Boyz as you would with Slugga Boyz (assault stuff), but, thanks to Overwatch and shooting in general you can rack up more kills overall. I have to say, I like this concept more. So, you can shoot on your way in and then get to fire back if assaulted next turn (presuming you rout your opposition), which benefits you as you'll be out in the open. Well, again, I did some Mathammer, in a made up sitaution where 19 Boyz (I didn't count the Nob) of each variety, shoot a unit of 10 Tac Marines, Assaulted it (presume that the Tacs fall back), are then charged by another unit of 10 Tac Marines, Overwatched and then played out that Assault. The result was that the Slugga Boyz did more damage overall, despite sustaining more casualties. I guess Shootas might be more useful against lesser-armoured things, thanks to their AP, but MEQs are always a good foundation and my meta is mainly MEQ-dominated anyways.

Keep in mind that most non-GK marines do not have assault weapons. So they can not shoot and charge you, as rapid fire prohibits that. Marines are better at shooting than they are in close combat, so let them come - thanks to 18" range you can sit at 16-18" from them and watch them move up 6" and then try to bridge 10" by rolling 2d6. If they fail (83.3%) you simply killed a MEQ for free, right before counter-charing next turn. Also note that ignoring the nob heavily skews your results, as the nob is essential for killing MEQ. He kills more all by himself than both sluggas or shootaz would, making their contribution, and especially the difference in contribution to the combat a lot less relevant. If your opponent is packing powerfists everywhere to kill your nobz in challenges (like one of my regular opponents is) you now also have the option to simply outshoot them and punish him for sinking a hundred points in fancy gloves.

So yes, I think I might be missing something. I haven't actually read the rules yet (I know, I know) but have picked up a pretty decent grasp from games I've played at my FLGS. I kinda hope I'm not missing something, but I think I may be - surely the interwebz cannot be wrong?! Someone care to enlighten me?

Thanks in advance

Despite my obviousl love of mathhammer, you cannot calculate dynamics of an army. First of all, you can only calculate the variable you actually know about. For example, a dakkajet with 3 supa-shootaz can kill 1.875 MEQ during one round of shooting. Does not equate to 9.375 dead MEQs per game. It might not come on during turn two. It might even not come on during turn three. It will almost definitely not be able to shoot anything during one turn, due to zooming movement. When you call the Waagh! your only target might be a vehicle or a unit with 2+ saves. Unless you keep all these variable in mind, any calculation would be void anyways. Simply playing dakkajets two or three games gives you a much better picture of them than 9.375 dead MEQs. Second, actually usefull statistic are pain in the rear to calculate, so everyone goes with averages. Calculation bell curves is actually much more useful, as often it is more likely to not get that average number than to get it. Knowing that a dakka jet has a 70%+ chance to kill one, two or three MEQs is more useful than 1.875 dead MEQ on average. And last, but not least, synergy. As in your example, the marine player used combat tactics and clever placement of units in order to set up a counter-charge. No amount of math could solve that riddle for you. Oh, and not to mention, sometimes luck simply feths you over. I have seen Eldrad killing himself with perils of the warp in turn one. The chances of that happening (rolling 3d6, drop highest, reroll the entire roll if necessary, 3++, 4+ ghost helm to ignore perils), nonetheless three times in one turn, are completely off the chart. It still happened.

Tactically my orks have not change from 5th ed as I always have run shoota boyz in mass numbers. My general tactic is shoot the enemy, A LOT! the weight of the numbers you are sending his way is going to make him fail his armor saves and units are going to die to ork shooting. Between the Lootas, Shoota boyz, bikes and boom guns that I'm bringing to the table something, if not everything, is going to die.

Orks are orks, I run my wall of them straight into the opponents line because hey they like getting into close combat too. Furious charge lost the int step up but they still bring the pain!

Shoota boyz have been better than slugga boyz ever since shootas became assault weapons. Over a typical game they'll get more shots than the sluggas will get attacks, and even if you get assaulted you're still Orks with two attacks base.

I am new at 6th edition, so I just tried took my ork army, split it and fought the two parts in order to get familiar with the rules.

Well, unless I am doing something wrong it is clear that the shoota boyz are much better.

Just think about a shoota boy and a slugga boy charging. The shoota boy shoots twice before charging with 5+ to hit and S4. The slugga boy only makes one attack more than the shoota with WS4 and S4, and only in case that he survived until it is his turn to attack. Clearly I prefer the shooting before the combat over the extra attack if the figure gets to survive. The shooting also kills some enemies before the overwatch and the combat, making more orkz to survive to the moment in which they use their attacks. So if for example, by shooting first, 1 ork more gets to survive, this is already 3 extra attacks which compensate for the lost attacks for not having 2 close combat weapons.
Only if the combat takes several turns you could start to thank having 2 close combat weapons, but I still prefer to have the much better first turn in the assault.

Now think for example that your 20 shoota boyz get charged. This would be 40 overwatch shots! That is rather good, and the extra shot in overwatch could be better than the extra attack at low initiative. Besides the shooting is done with S4 and the extra close combat attack at S3.

You also get extra range and extra shooting. Whilst you will veery rarely decide to shoot with the slugga boyz, the shoota boyz can be OK with just sitting down on an objective and shooting.

When wasn't it?

There are also lots of things you don't want to face in close combat with boyz. And in many situations it's just better to shoot + have better overwatch than try to assault. For example when you face tau. There's no use of assaulting their gunline unless you can reliably do it simultaniously with at least 3 squads. Or they'll just kill you on overwatch. While you can get close and shoot someone, probably wiping half the fw squad or a crysis team and remain a threat for the next turn. Or when you're 6+ inches away from the opponent. Most likely, they'll kill a few boyz on overwatch and you'll have to charge 7+ inches. Which is around 50% to fail for nothing. And if they're in cover, it's gona fail more often.

Theese are just one of the most common situations where shootas are clearly better. They're not much worse in mellee but far superior in shooting. That's the deciding factor of taking shootas over sluggas. I find that only if you're running a truck or two alongside your main forces, truckboyz can take choppas instead of shootas cause their extra attacks can be deciding in an equal combat with like 6-8 boyz involved. If they get there ofc.

Boyz in general have been underwhelming for me. Put them in wagons, the wagons explode every time to the first pen, and the SAFH have no problems getting that pen. Put them in trukks, and you have a first turn only army - go second and watch your trukk fleet turn into six useless ten man mobs of boyz. Run green tide, be bored shitless, and also watch anything with a lot of templates auto-win against you.

That said, sluggas are much worse in green tide, fairly worse in battlewagons, and somewhat better in trukks. At least by my opinion.

So, as I said I split my ork army and faced myself to get used to the rules. It was overwhelming to notice how better the shoota boyz were compared to the slugga boyz. So I took my notebook and run some easy numbers (I can include them if somebody asks).

If 18 shoota boyz shoot and charge 18 slugga boyz -> after the first CC turn you have 13 shoota boyz left and 1 slugga boy in average with high chance to wipe the whole unit.

If 18 slugga boyz charge 18 shoota boyz -> after the first CC turn you have 7 or 8 slugga boyz left and 5 or 6 shoota boyz in average.

So, in a purely Versus mode, shoota boyz are much much better.

Besides, shoota boyz had no problem in shooting down other squads, even small squads of bikes or deffkoptas from distance. My slugga boyz where in trucks, and if the transport gets destroyed, then they where just running around like crazy chickens to try to get in combat as soon as possible to be effective and have less casualties.

 Jidmah wrote:

The Shadow wrote:Ok, so I've been hearing, both on Dakka and in real life, that Shoota Boyz are far superior to their Slugga and Choppa weilding brethren in 6th Edition. This was an annoyingly harsh truth to face for me, being the owner of 50 Slugga Boyz and only a mere 10 Shoota Boyz, however, I still wasn't quite sure if Slugga Boyz were actually that bad.

Firstly, I've been hearing a lot about 'Shoota-Wagons'. Essentially, stick 20 Shoota Boyz in a Battlewagon, zoom round and Snap-Shot stuff. Sounds pretty good huh? A fast shooting platform, whose shooters don't lose much from Snap-Shooting. Well, I did some Mathammer (I know, I know), and, on average, this 'Shoota-Wagon' will kill 1 MEQ (not counting the Wagon's weapons because Slugga Boyz would get that too). Ok, sure it would kill more, say, Guard, but 1 Marine? For 210 Points, minimum? Really? So, unless I'm missing something, I can't see how this is useful in any way.

Ah, the point is not to drive around the board and wait for them to blow up. They do that in addition to whatever those boyz were doing anyways. As you can disembark and ram on the same turn anymore you often find yourself choosing between assaulting a transport or ramming it. For shoota boyz you can safely ram a transport and then cause that 1 MEQ (or - iirc - 3 GEQ or 4 orks) casualties on the disembarked unit. Sluggas do half as much. Now when someone attempts to charge your battlewagon, they take overwatch fire from your boyz, resulting in that many casualties, again. On top of that, you no longer have to decide between shooting and using the Waagh!. You can always shoot before assaulting, reducing the casualties you take before you strike. After casualties, all those bonus attacks from your surviving boyz do not amount to much more than one MEQ casualty either - but you can't get that extra casualty as often as the extra shooting from shootaz, because close combat kills off a bunch of your boyz. If you care about the exact math, I have done it in the huge thread about orks.

Another concept I've heard of is simply using Shoota Boyz as you would with Slugga Boyz (assault stuff), but, thanks to Overwatch and shooting in general you can rack up more kills overall. I have to say, I like this concept more. So, you can shoot on your way in and then get to fire back if assaulted next turn (presuming you rout your opposition), which benefits you as you'll be out in the open. Well, again, I did some Mathammer, in a made up sitaution where 19 Boyz (I didn't count the Nob) of each variety, shoot a unit of 10 Tac Marines, Assaulted it (presume that the Tacs fall back), are then charged by another unit of 10 Tac Marines, Overwatched and then played out that Assault. The result was that the Slugga Boyz did more damage overall, despite sustaining more casualties. I guess Shootas might be more useful against lesser-armoured things, thanks to their AP, but MEQs are always a good foundation and my meta is mainly MEQ-dominated anyways.

Keep in mind that most non-GK marines do not have assault weapons. So they can not shoot and charge you, as rapid fire prohibits that.

Most Marines come with Bolt Pistols as well as Bolters these days.

I made that reply two years ago.

Martel732 wrote:
When wasn't it?

A little more than 2 years ago, apparently.