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Hi dakka, i need help deciding which rule applies.

I was trying to decide which libby to put on a bike (using C:SM), and i decided to use the one with the axe. So, i set about choosing which psuchic powers, ones from the Brb or codex. Thats when quickening caught my eye...

Tldr
It says i can increase my Initiative to 10 for the duration of the assault phase. Does this over-write the Unwieldly rule? So, the libby in the above example can attack at I 10 with a power axe, if this is the case. Or does Unwieldly take priority?

Thanks guys. Depending on the outcome of this dicussion, i may have found a nice teq character killer

Sorry if this is disjoined and doesn't make sense in some parts, its 23:30 and i'm on my phone.

No. Your Init is raised to 10, and the axe sets it to 1, as per unwieldy

That clears it up, thanks for the help! :/
jokes...

Which Initiative step is the axe used at? 1 or 10? Your post isn't very clear as to which step it is used at.

Sadly I believe it will be at 1 - the weapon rule will trump Quickening.

You strike at I1.
You can have I10, no problem there but you'll strike at I1.

I could be wrong but I believe you'll do your pile-in moves at I1 as well, as the two should be done together.

Not nearly as sure about when the pile in move is done. At your initiative? At your striking initiative?

Either way, you do not get to swing the axe until I1. Follow the steps for modifying attributes in the front of the book. Unwieldy takes any initiative after all other modifiers and sets it to 1.

The Pile in move is done when you strike.

Page 22 and 23 equate when a model makes his attacks to when the pile in moves are made.

The power axe has the same rule as a power fist does/used to.


Quickining makes you I10, but Axes and Fists always strike at I1.

Two set modifiers - roll off to see which takes precedence.

Can't remember which page that rule is on though, I'm sure someone will post it.

Not correct, they arn't both set Modifiers.

Quickening changes your profile to be I10, fine. But Axes stipulate that you always strike with them at I1, regardless of your actual Inititive.

I'm hoping we see a relic force weapon for Libbies inthe next dex.

Well if you are talking about the grey knight type of librarian? You can always equip them with a force halberd, initiative 6 is still pretty boss. (or one of the other options that isn't an unwieldy axe...)

Grey Templar wrote:Not correct, they arn't both set Modifiers.

Quickening changes your profile to be I10, fine. But Axes stipulate that you always strike with them at I1, regardless of your actual Inititive.

"always strike at I1" sounds like a set modifier to me.

"Power Axes reduce the model to I1" is a set modifier
"always strike at I1" is telling you which initiative set you strike at

BlueDagger wrote:
"always strike at I1" is telling you which initiative set you strike at

Yes, by setting it to 1. How is this difficult?

and that is why it's not a modifier. Unwieldly doesn't change your stat to I1, it just makes you strike at I1.

Logic fail.

It modifies your initiative to 1 when you strike with that weapon. Therefore it is a modifier. You can use another verb if you like but it's the same thing.

Please state for me where in the Unwieldly rules it states that your model's initiative becomes 1. Strike at an initiative level and a models initiative stat are not the same thing.

BlueDagger wrote:Please state for me where in the Unwieldly rules it states that your model's initiative becomes 1. Strike at an initiative level and a models initiative stat are not the same thing.

Yes they are. Don't use semantics to exploit gamey tactics.

? Says the guy trying to negate a game balancing USR lol. Trust me I would LOVE to have I10 Str4 AP2 howling banshees however the fact remains that you simply become an I10 model that strikes at I1.

The two modifiers overlap so you roll for them.
I wouldn't model axes on banshees since I'm not WAAC but I understand many would.

BlueDagger is correct, 'Always Strike at I1' is not a Initiative statistic modifier.

Redemption wrote:BlueDagger is correct, 'Always Strike at I1' is not a Initiative statistic modifier.

Other than modifying your initiative to a static value, obviously.

Testify wrote:

Redemption wrote:BlueDagger is correct, 'Always Strike at I1' is not a Initiative statistic modifier.

Other than modifying your initiative to a static value, obviously.

Unwieldy does not change the model's initiative, it will still make pile-in moves and initiative tests at the value in its profile. When making attacks with an unwieldy weapon, all attacks are made at initiative 1 during that combat subphase. Again, the model's initiative value does NOT change.

As others have said, it doesn't 'modify' your models' initiative stat at all. What it does, is tell you which initiative step when your strikes are going to occur.

Hitting at initiative 1 is 'not' the same thing as 'having' an initiative of 1. There are a few effects like Jaws of the World Wolf and Empyrean Brain Mines which require an Initiative test and would use the statistic as modified by things like the 'Quicksilver' Psychic ability, but the Unwieldy USR is not one of 'em.

You do realize that 9 people have responded to you at this point with the same answer right?

and for the third time the unwieldy rule never states it is modifying you initiative stat, anywhere, at all. The word "attribute" nor "modify" are not anywhere in that very simple one sentence rule found on page 43pg.

EDIT: 10 people

Testify wrote:

Redemption wrote:BlueDagger is correct, 'Always Strike at I1' is not a Initiative statistic modifier.

Other than modifying your initiative to a static value, obviously.

It does not alter your I value. it alters the I value you strike at. If you were sweeping advances, or called upon to make an Init test from Jaws, you would NOT test at I1

2 different things. Lash Whips / Whip Coils modify your actual init value; "striking at" I1 alters when you hit.

Also, the rule specifically states you attack at Initiative step 1, which is not the same as being Initiative 1.

Haunter! wrote:
Unwieldy does not change the model's initiative, it will still make pile-in moves and initiative tests at the value in its profile. When making attacks with an unwieldy weapon, all attacks are made at initiative 1 during that combat subphase. Again, the model's initiative value does NOT change.

Wouldn't you also pile-in at I1, as you pile-in on the Initiative Step you attack in?

Dam it!

Knew it was too good to be true ;P

Thanks guys

Redemption wrote:Also, the rule specifically states you attack at Initiative step 1, which is not the same as being Initiative 1.

Haunter! wrote:
Unwieldy does not change the model's initiative, it will still make pile-in moves and initiative tests at the value in its profile. When making attacks with an unwieldy weapon, all attacks are made at initiative 1 during that combat subphase. Again, the model's initiative value does NOT change.

Wouldn't you also pile-in at I1, as you pile-in on the Initiative Step you attack in?

No. Pile in moves are resolved at the model's initiative value, not what it strikes at. Unwieldy weapons only effect the initiative the model strikes at, anything else is resolved with the initiative in the model's profile.

This means a Space Marine Sergent with an unwieldy weapon would pile in at initiative 4, but strike blows at initiative 1 during the combat sub-phase.