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Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.

If you want to play it that the model cannot force weapon himself, then he shouldn't get to use those abilities mentioned above as well.

I am of the opinion that the model can force weapon itself due to Mindshackles.

Also, techinically, force weapon is a benefit of the weapon itself even though it requires the wielder to take a psychic test and thusly, the "controller" of the MSS can choose for it to happen.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.

This is incorrect though. Furious Charge etc are passive effects that are always effecting the model and can't be switched off, whereas a Force Weapon is an ability that the controlling player can choose to use or not; using MSS doesn't make you the controlling player, it just makes the dude hit himself.

Actually, MSS lets the controller of the MSS target choose and thus he can choose for the target to activate the force weapon.

"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). "

- Necron codex, p. 81

 Dunwich wrote:
If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.

In the case of a single-wound model like a justicar, the point is moot because he is already dead. No need to activate force aspect.

As for, say paladins with 2-W each, then yes, you either activate it for all or you don't, depending on the initiative step when MSS occurs.

However, there is a simple work-around to this....just cast Hammerhand in the beginning. Expend your warp charge so when it comes to the MSS attack, there is no more warp charge to use on the force weapon activation.

Some things are implicit.

If you have a special rule that causes the opponent to suffer a wound, then it is implicit that the opponent can take whatever save is allowable to him (and FNP if he has it).

If you make a shooting attack, then it is implicit that you have range and LOS to the target and that the target is not locked in combat.

If you use a psychic power, then it is implicit that you take a psychic test.

If you choose not to expend a warp charge, then it is implicit that you don't use the psychic power.

If MSS forces you to use a psychic power (i.e. force weapon), then it is implicit that you use whatever warp charge you have and take your psychic test in order to use that power.

You are right that MSS cannot make you expend warp charge, but what it can do is to make you use the force power. And in order to use the power, voluntary or not, you have to use your warp charge and take the psychic test.

 AndrewC wrote:
Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew

Going just by logic alone (because there is no actual RAW for this hypothetical rule), then if the player wants his weapon to be S10 AP1, then he would have to sacrifice one member from his squad anyways. It is a condition and also a requirement in order to make the weapon S10.

Now if MSS controls this person and forces him to make it a S10 weapon, then he would be forced to sacrifice a member of his squad. There is no other way for him to satisfy the requirement of his special weapon. He is not doing it voluntarily. He is doing it because the weapon, which is controlled by the MSS, is requiring him to do so. The only out he has is if there is no one else in the squad and thus he cannot satisfy the weapon's requirement.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.

Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

You cannot pick and choose which aspects of an ability to use, only the ability itself.

For example, I mindshackle a space marine captain with a thunderhammer. I cannot choose to have him strike himself with the thunderhammer and then choose for him not to suffer Instant Death. It's all or nothing. If I choose him to hit himself with the thunderhammer, then he suffers all the consequences that follows with it, including getting ID'd if he isn't Eternal Warrior or striking at I1 next turn if he is.

 Stoff3 wrote:
So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

What he meant is that your example is irrelevant.

Boon of Mutation, even though it can be cast while you are in assault and at a target in assault, is actually done so in the owning player's Shooting Phase. MSS is only used in the Fight Sub-phase. MSS cannot make you use Boon any more than it could make you fire a gun in the assault phase.

Guys, it's been 23 pages of the same argument with nothing new. "Cannot, can to, cannot, can to....."

If in a tournament, check with the TO.

In casual games, just dice off.

At this point, no one is willing to give on their interpretations so let's "agree to disagree" and move on.