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Two questions here.
1: Do you have to have troops manning the Aegis Defense line in order to use it's gun or Comm Relays?
2: What happens to the Embarked troops if a Night Scythe gets shot down? I've been told they are put into Ongoing reserves and that they would have to take S10 hits? Which is true or are those both wrong?

1) Quad gun doesnt have automated weaponry, so yes you do need someone in base to use it at all. DIto comms relay
2) They do both - S10 hits and back into reserve.

nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Clarification, anything with a BS can man a Quadgun. Not just Troops.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Clarification, anything with a BS can man a Quadgun. Not just Troops.

Unless you're a Tyranid.

They can, they can't manual fire Emplaced weapons.

The necrons are not technically inside the nightscythe though they are in a transporter buffer, not there as matter but as energy so there is nothing to take a physical hit.

If you look at the model you can see there is no way they can fit inside the vehicle, and if they are not inside they cant take a hit can they?

They in my opinion just get phased in elsewhere ready to come on as reserves.

Fluff agree with you hobojebus, but rules do not, the night scythe would need a rule to override the normal flyer transport rules which it does not have(though I wish it did). The wording of the night scythes transport capacity actually supports them taking the hit as it just says they are not deployed but instead placed in reserve.

If they are not on the transport they cannot disembark from it since they Are NOT ON IT. No really that IS what you are saying after all yes? Also lets look at a Rhino or a Razorback shall we. Does it look posible to fit 10/5 Power Armored Space Marines actualy IN IT?

By fluff, No, they are not actually IN the Night Sythe. By rules, YES they are in it. So they take the Hit and THEN go back into researves.

Nightscythe's rules do specify they are, in fact, embarked.

Dooley wrote:
If they are not on the transport they cannot disembark from it since they Are NOT ON IT. No really that IS what you are saying after all yes? Also lets look at a Rhino or a Razorback shall we. Does it look posible to fit 10/5 Power Armored Space Marines actualy IN IT?

By fluff, No, they are not actually IN the Night Sythe. By rules, YES they are in it. So they take the Hit and THEN go back into researves.

But Rhino's and razorbacks actually have a space inside that if the vehicle were in scale with the infantry could hold them, the night scythe though has no space inside the hull its just got the portal under it.

Also if they are inside how do they then go into reserve? if they are in the vehicle they'd take the hit and fall to the earth, if they arnt inside then their teleport signal is simply rerouted elsewhere so they could not take any damage.

I've checked the codex it does say they are embarked so yes they do take the hit, i clearly didnt remember the wording right but i still say fluff wise its wrong, and in fact seems like a punishment to me you take a S10 hit then have to come on from deployment instead of where your transport crashed.

hobojebus wrote:
The necrons are not technically inside the nightscythe though they are in a transporter buffer, not there as matter but as energy so there is nothing to take a physical hit.

If you look at the model you can see there is no way they can fit inside the vehicle, and if they are not inside they cant take a hit can they?

They in my opinion just get phased in elsewhere ready to come on as reserves.

Do you have any idea how sensitive that teleporter is to knocks and jolts? You're lucky if you don't end up beamed 5 feet into the ground at the best of times.
Look at this instructional video for an explanation of how sensitive they are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-NiGp1gys

 don_mondo wrote:
nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Because the unit is embarked. The Necron rules only override the being plced on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they dont

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Because the unit is embarked. The Necron rules only override the being plced on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they dont

OK, so the basics of your argument is "The Necron rules only override the being placed on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they don't"

So... let's look at the relevant rules.

1. Vehicle Damage result of wreck's effects on embarked models (BRBpg80): "must immediately disembark" (and then the specifics of how this is implemented).. OK so we have established right off that the embarked models in a vehicle that was wrecked must disembark. This is the basic rule that all vehicles follow that can be modified by other rules for a specific vehicle type.

2. Vehicle Damage result of wreck or explode effects on embarked models for flyers (BRBpg81): "any models within suffer a S10 hit with no armor saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position". So.. When a flyer is wrecked, the disembark specified in the basic rule on pg80 (Rule #1) is modified to be from the flyer's wreckage point, instead of from where the flyer was in the air, and adds in the S10 no armor save hit to the disembark.

3. Necron Nightscythe's Transport Rule (in part. CoNecPg51): "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserves"

So.. for a wrecked or exploded Necron Nightscythe, Rule #3 (being in a Codex) overrides Rule #1 (basic rule in the rule book) as they clearly contradict (by the Basic vs. Advanced rule BRBPg7), and Rule #2 is not in effect at all (as it is a modification of Rule #1 for the flyer vehicle type, and Rule #1 is not in effect since it was overridden by Rule #3).

So.. by the RAW, the unit in a destroyed Nightscythe enters reserves with no other ill effects.

DougMcNaron wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Because the unit is embarked. The Necron rules only override the being plced on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they dont

OK, so the basics of your argument is "The Necron rules only override the being placed on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they don't"

So... let's look at the relevant rules.

1. Vehicle Damage result of wreck's effects on embarked models (BRBpg80): "must immediately disembark" (and then the specifics of how this is implemented).. OK so we have established right off that the embarked models in a vehicle that was wrecked must disembark. This is the basic rule that all vehicles follow that can be modified by other rules for a specific vehicle type.

2. Vehicle Damage result of wreck or explode effects on embarked models for flyers (BRBpg81): "any models within suffer a S10 hit with no armor saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position". So.. When a flyer is wrecked, the disembark specified in the basic rule on pg80 (Rule #1) is modified to be from the flyer's wreckage point, instead of from where the flyer was in the air, and adds in the S10 no armor save hit to the disembark.

3. Necron Nightscythe's Transport Rule (in part. CoNecPg51): "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserves"

So.. for a wrecked or exploded Necron Nightscythe, Rule #3 (being in a Codex) overrides Rule #1 (basic rule in the rule book) as they clearly contradict (by the Basic vs. Advanced rule BRBPg7), and Rule #2 is not in effect at all (as it is a modification of Rule #1 for the flyer vehicle type, and Rule #1 is not in effect since it was overridden by Rule #3).

So.. by the RAW, the unit in a destroyed Nightscythe enters reserves with no other ill effects.

The problem with this is that premise 2 is not correct. It should be premises 2 and 3. The str10 hits are separate from disembarking so preventing disembarking does not prevent the hits. This is what happens when a flyer is wrecked or explodes:

1. Roll scatter to see where it lands.
2. All models under the blast marker take a str6 hit.
3. All embarked models take a str10 hit.
4. All embarked models disembark 3".

3 comes before 4, and preventing 4 in no way prevents 3 from taking place.

Necrons take the hit. if you want a fluffy way to explain it lets say the Necrons are in a teleport buffer and the shock of the transport exploding causes their patterns to degrade (thank you star trek) to the point where they cannot be retrieved. the ones whose patterns survived intact go into reserves.

There. Fluff satisfied.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
The str10 hits are separate from disembarking so preventing disembarking does not prevent the hits. This is what happens when a flyer is wrecked or explodes:

I didn't say they were one in the same thing. I said that the S10 hit and relocation of the disembarkation location for flyers that appear on page 81 affecting the models embarked in a flyer are a modifications of the basic rules for the wreck result affects on models embarked in a vehicle that appear on page 80 (which is being overridden by the Necron Codex rule). If the basic rules for the affects on passengers of a wrecked vehicle are not in effect (as has been clearly shown), a modification to that basic rules is also not in effect..

Hence, the unit does not disembark, the unit does not taking a pinning test, the location of the disembark is not relocated (since the disembark doesn't happen this is a bit irrelevant), and there is no S10 hit on the embarked models.

DougMcNaron wrote:
I said that the S10 hit and relocation of the disembarkation location for flyers that appear on page 81 affecting the models embarked in a flyer are a modifications of the basic rules for the wreck result affects on models embarked in a vehicle that appear on page 80 (which is being overridden by the Necron Codex rule). If the basic rules for the affects on passengers of a wrecked vehicle are not in effect (as has been clearly shown), a modification to that basic rules is also not in effect.

No, the Flyer rules replace the normal Wrecked/Explodes rules - which means that the Necron rules replace rules that aren't used.
Even allowing disembark (and hence allowing the NS rules to be used) means that the S10 hit happens before the unit is placed.

The page 80 rules aren't used. Only the rules on page 81 that are specific to Flyers are used.

rigeld2 wrote:

No, the Flyer rules replace the normal Wrecked/Explodes rules - which means that the Necron rules replace rules that aren't used.

So its a modification of a basic rule that is not in effect.

rigeld2 wrote:

Even allowing disembark (and hence allowing the NS rules to be used) means that the S10 hit happens before the unit is placed.

By the Nightscythe transport rule, the unit is not placed onto the board (disembarked), instead going into reserves.

rigeld2 wrote:

The page 80 rules aren't used. Only the rules on page 81 that are specific to Flyers are used.

Exactly what would you call placing models that were previously embarked in a transport vehicle onto the table if not a disembark?? The rules for the affects on flyer embarked models of a wreck result (on BRB81) are a modification to the basic vehicle rules for the affects on general vehicle embarked models of a wreck result (on BRB80).

Again.. if the basic rule is not in effect, any modifications to that rule for a specific case (vehicle type in our case) are also not in effect.

...which is an unsupported leap. Entirely

You only replace the "placement" portion of the flyer rule; nothing int he Necron rule overrides the S10.

DougMcNaron wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, the Flyer rules replace the normal Wrecked/Explodes rules - which means that the Necron rules replace rules that aren't used.

So its a modification of a basic rule that is not in effect.

Correct - the Night Scythe rules replace rules that are not in effect.

rigeld2 wrote:

Even allowing disembark (and hence allowing the NS rules to be used) means that the S10 hit happens before the unit is placed.

By the Nightscythe transport rule, the unit is not placed onto the board (disembarked), instead going into reserves.

You're making a leap saying that being placed is the same as disembarking - care to support that leap with rules?
Regardless, allowing the "going into reserves" to happen at placement doesn't change the fact that the S10 hit happens before that.

rigeld2 wrote:

The page 80 rules aren't used. Only the rules on page 81 that are specific to Flyers are used.

Exactly what would you call placing models that were previously embarked in a transport vehicle onto the table if not a disembark??

Disembark has specific rules. Unless it's called a disembark, it's not one.

The rules for the affects on flyer embarked models of a wreck result (on BRB81) are a modification to the basic vehicle rules for the affects on general vehicle embarked models of a wreck result (on BRB80).

Wrecked and Explodes. And it's a replacement, not a modification.

Again.. if the basic rule is not in effect, any modifications to that rule for a specific case (vehicle type in our case) are also not in effect.

So there is no Crash and Burn? Either you use the entirety of the rules on page 80 (in which case the Night Scythe rules mean there's no S10 hit and no scattering explosion) or you use the rules on page 81 - you don't combine them.

Can we please come to a overall conclusion? Yakface or Jy2 want in on this? To my understanding thus far Night Scythe passengers who are embarked will move into reserves after a Wrecked result, that is certain but does the Crash and Burn take precedence and happen before or after the Necron specific rule?

My 2 cents, they take the hit. As reasoning behind it is in the thread.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Because the unit is embarked. The Necron rules only override the being plced on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they dont

So...how do you resolve the RP/EL rolls that would come from this? And don't just say "you don't", that's not the answer I want! LoL

So, I think you still get to roll for reanimation protocols.

Think of it as this.
A group of Necron is waiting to be teleported in, the vehicle goes kaboom and the fire jets out of the other side of the teleport.
The necrons take the blast and suffer some damage, but then they have their reanimation protocal for reviving.

 Praxiss wrote:
Necrons take the hit. if you want a fluffy way to explain it lets say the Necrons are in a teleport buffer and the shock of the transport exploding causes their patterns to degrade (thank you star trek) to the point where they cannot be retrieved. the ones whose patterns survived intact go into reserves.

There. Fluff satisfied.

In that case I'll just bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish.

hobojebus wrote:


I've checked the codex it does say they are embarked so yes they do take the hit, i clearly didnt remember the wording right but i still say fluff wise its wrong, and in fact seems like a punishment to me you take a S10 hit then have to come on from deployment instead of where your transport crashed.

If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked units enter reserve.
If the Night Scythe is wrecked or explodes the embarked models take a S10 hit no armor saves.
There's no conflict here. This is gonna hurt.

So 5 out of every 6 models on average die and then the lucky few get to walk on the board on turn 3 at the earliest. No RP rolls, no EL rolls, as they are not anywhere on the board, never disembark, and so you have no place to place the counters.

Of course it's a punishment. That's what you get for putting your unit in a AV11 flying transport and not disembarking the turn they come on.

 Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Because the unit is embarked. The Necron rules only override the being plced on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they dont

So...how do you resolve the RP/EL rolls that would come from this? And don't just say "you don't", that's not the answer I want! LoL

They dont . Seriously though, you cannot place a token on the board for them so they are gone.

If it happenes before they are placed then they dont take a hit since they didnt crash they where put in reserves. Show us a rule that says models take wound in reserves. You all that are arguing this point know exactly what the intentions are of GW. Yet you argue it just to argue it. They are the only models embarked on a flyer that does not get hit when it crashes since they are placed in reserves insted. the s10 hit are for those hitting the ground and crawling out if they survive. you dont get to wound them and then have us place them so far back off the table to get a double benefit. its one way or the other.


Nor does the same rule your typing on here again and again. If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked units enter reserve. see it dosent also say they take a hit. dosent say remaining undestoyed unit. says the unit.

Again its just anger because they can embark and disembark while zooming, and not be destroyed when when the ship goes down.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im sure if ever it gets a FAQ some will be sadly disapointed to find they are in fact not wounded just dumped in reserves.

Fragile wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
nos, walk me through the ST 10 hits conclusion. Our local Necron players think it's just ongoing reserves with no hits taken.

Because the unit is embarked. The Necron rules only override the being plced on the table part - they say nothing about avoiding the S10, so they dont

So...how do you resolve the RP/EL rolls that would come from this? And don't just say "you don't", that's not the answer I want! LoL

They dont . Seriously though, you cannot place a token on the board for them so they are gone.