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I ran into an odd course of events that unfolded in our League match today and was hoping for some Clarification from my Dakka nuts out there. When i read the rules for Flyers in the Main Rule Book it mentioned what happens to a Flyer model when it is destroyed and happens to be transporting troops.

The Exact wording is " If the Flyer is a transport, any models within suffer a strength 10 hit with no armor saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3' of in the blast marker's final position and in Unit Coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties ."

That is pretty self Explanatory to most circumstances, If a Vendetta is flying as a jet and happens to be destroyed before coming to a low altitude the survivors are almost confirmed to die. But I was fighting a Nightsychte tonight... least I think they are called that. I destroyed it over impassable terrain while carrying Immortals. According to their rules in the Codex it says that the moment they are to be disembarked from the vehicle they will be removed and placed in reserves. My problem with this is the entry mentions "SURVIVORS" meaning the vehicle sounds like it stilll inflicts the hits on the squad before allowing them to flee the vehicle and come in through new methods like a Monolith or table edges.

Could anyone clear this up? we handled it with a roll off which ended up being in my favor but our gaming store didn't find anything talking about this issue on Dakka Dakka before and nothing in FAQs

There's like a million threads on it. They either take the hit or don't, one of the two. No need to hash it out once again.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
There's like a million threads on it. They either take the hit or don't, one of the two. No need to hash it out once again.

Wow? for real we couldn't find a one... weird... okay i assume the dice roll off is the easiest result then

Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

What?
You're implying it's cheating to enforce the S10 hits?
It's cheating to follow the rules?

...
Have fun man.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

Sorry, following the rules is cheating? You're kidding, right?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/471175.page
Long debate on his, about 5 posts down from this one.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

Perhaps you might want to rethink the whole 'cheating' bit there? Personally, I've thought that it is entirely legitimate for folks to have differing interpretations of how a rule or set of rules are executed without thinking that they're end goal was to cheat.

It may be more beneficial to the OP to simply provide some links to a couple of the threads that have discussed this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/459610.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/460016.page

My opinion is that they don't take the S10 hit.

-Yad

The Necron Codex is strong enough, they can take the hits instead of trying to weasel out by using fluff as rules.

Spetulhu wrote:
The Necron Codex is strong enough, they can take the hits instead of trying to weasel out by using fluff as rules.

Spoken like a person that calls everything cheese if it beats them on the table. Also note there not trying to weasel out of anything its pretty clear they don't take the hits as they were not taking hits at games day. More then one game workshop guy was there when that question was asked if they should take the hit's.

captain-crud wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Necron Codex is strong enough, they can take the hits instead of trying to weasel out by using fluff as rules.

Spoken like a person that calls everything cheese if it beats them on the table. Also note there not trying to weasel out of anything its pretty clear they don't take the hits as they were not taking hits at games day. More then one game workshop guy was there when that question was asked if they should take the hit's.

That's great!

It's a house rule. RAW they take the hits. Until they FAQ it anyone playing otherwise is playing by a house rule.
There's nothing wrong with that. But you should recognize that fact.

And down the rabbit hole we go...

-Yad

captain-crud wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Necron Codex is strong enough, they can take the hits instead of trying to weasel out by using fluff as rules.

Spoken like a person that calls everything cheese if it beats them on the table. Also note there not trying to weasel out of anything its pretty clear they don't take the hits as they were not taking hits at games day. More then one game workshop guy was there when that question was asked if they should take the hit's.

Prove it with rules. Making an unsupported claim is against the rules of the forum. "I've seen plenty of people do it this way", even when those people are being "watched" by GW employees isn't a valid argument. The rules say they take a hit then disembark, the Necron Codex only says they don't disembark. Since it does not remove the hit the hit is applied since you cannot ignore a rule simply because you want to. Even if they were all doing it wrong at Games Day.

Don't start this again the Necrons get enough bashing from certain quarters, wait till the chaos dex is out so people will leave the crons alone and move on to new rules to hate

Roll of if you don't agree or use GW house rules as some people call them

snakel wrote:
Don't start this again the Necrons get enough bashing from certain quarters, wait till the chaos dex is out so people will leave the crons alone and move on to new rules to hate

Roll of if you don't agree or use GW house rules as some people call them

Until a FAQ is released, it's house rules, tournament rules, whatever you want to call them except "official".
And it's not about bashing Necrons - I'm offended by that implication.
It's about understanding the rules.

You keep up with the persecuted feelings though. Have fun with that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

What?
You're implying it's cheating to enforce the S10 hits?
It's cheating to follow the rules?

...
Have fun man.

No intentionally breaking therules is the definition of cheating. Therefore if you break clear rai to follow raw you are by definition cheating.

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

What?
You're implying it's cheating to enforce the S10 hits?
It's cheating to follow the rules?

...
Have fun man.

No intentionally breaking therules is the definition of cheating. Therefore if you break clear rai to follow raw you are by definition cheating.

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rules as written about 80% certain they take the hits. Rules as intended 99% certain they don't. Depends whether you like cheating in order to follow raw or you prefer to play by the rules...

What?
You're implying it's cheating to enforce the S10 hits?
It's cheating to follow the rules?

...
Have fun man.

No intentionally breaking therules is the definition of cheating. Therefore if you break clear rai to follow raw you are by definition cheating.

Prove it is what was intended. With rules. You can't. Because if it was in the rules it would be RAW and not RAI. That's why we use RAW because we are not psychic.

They take the hit due to sentence structure. The period that separates the hit occurring and the disembarking makes each part of the rule distinct start and stop points. Models take the hit, make any Invulnerable saves if they have it, any survivors go to the ongoing reserves. Since its the Necron codex and Night Scythe specifically, your models dont get to make Reanimation Protocols or Everliving rolls as they are sent to Ongoing Reserves and not on the board.

Sucks for us Necrons, but RAW, thats how it works. I expect a FaQ on this one though to change up the wording for our model to prevent the S10 hit though.

You can't prove anything with or without rules. Nothing except debatably maths can be proven.

Therefore anything is a guess. Yes we can not be sure on rai. Neither can we be sure on raw. But lets get something clear that rai is by definition the rules whereas raw is simply a literalistic way of determining rai using the rulebook and codexes as source material.

A houserule is not when you follow what seems clear to be the rules. A houserule is when you either don't think the rules are clear so make a judgement. Or when the rule is clear and you make a ruling deliberately to break it.

If you genuinely believe that an faq would rule in your favour and that the raw is the same as the rai but your opponent disagrees then which ever ruling you use is a houserule. Whether you follow the raw or break it.

If you are confident an faq would go against the raw and try to enforce the raw. Then you are cheating.

Whats the order of RAI and Raw? If I read as written and can see the clear intention then theres no problem right.

Can some one here with access to a camera and 6 sided dice just roll it off and we can use that ruling till the faq clarifies the true intention of the rule.

Wheres they guy who says codex trumps brb. Codex does not say to take wounds and be placed in reserves. I think we are intermingling two sets of rules here. Ill use my codex rules, since it simply states what happens in a wreck or destroyed situation, the rest the flyers use the BRB rules.

so is that like page 7 trumps all? there i said it.

ooh ooh better idea roll the dice at the start of your game and play that way for the game. problem solved. lets move along.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Therefore anything is a guess. Yes we can not be sure on rai. Neither can we be sure on raw. But lets get something clear that rai is by definition the rules whereas raw is simply a literalistic way of determining rai using the rulebook and codexes as source material.

No, that's absolutely not clear. RAW is the actual rules as they are written. RAI is a person's assumption of the intent behind the rules. One of these is objective. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one.

If you are confident an faq would go against the raw and try to enforce the raw. Then you are cheating.

Absolutely false. Cheating is breaking the actual rules, not the rules that might exist in the future if you have your way.

I am confident that Tyranid Primes will be allowed to join units inside a Mycetic Spore. According to you I'd be cheating not to play it that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
ooh ooh better idea roll the dice at the start of your game and play that way for the game. problem solved. lets move along.

Perhaps the tenets of YMDC would be a good read.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You can't prove anything with or without rules. Nothing except debatably maths can be proven.

Therefore anything is a guess. Yes we can not be sure on rai. Neither can we be sure on raw. But lets get something clear that rai is by definition the rules whereas raw is simply a literalistic way of determining rai using the rulebook and codexes as source material.

A houserule is not when you follow what seems clear to be the rules. A houserule is when you either don't think the rules are clear so make a judgement. Or when the rule is clear and you make a ruling deliberately to break it.

If you genuinely believe that an faq would rule in your favour and that the raw is the same as the rai but your opponent disagrees then which ever ruling you use is a houserule. Whether you follow the raw or break it.

If you are confident an faq would go against the raw and try to enforce the raw. Then you are cheating.

I honestly dont know if your addressing me good sir. Please respond if so. :3

But...if people were to abide by the tenets these threads would only be about 2-3 pages...We can't have that. [/sarcasm]

Yad wrote:

It may be more beneficial to the OP to simply provide some links to a couple of the threads that have discussed this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/459610.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/460016.page

This is a useful response.

Throwing around accusations, either way, is NOT a useful response.

Thread's over; plenty to read on this topic elsewhere.