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Guys, you are really pikers. If you want to do this kind of crap and claim RAW, then let's do it, don't screw around.

RAW says Necrons take the the S10 hits? Bovine stuff, but we want to find a RAW justification? I tell you want, let's let the Necrons off on this S10 pantywaist stuff, shall we? Give it to them if you seriously think RAW is saying they take it. It doesn't matter.

Page 81 of 6th Edition BRB: "Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties."

Like that last sentence? Now, let's turn to the codex on page 51: "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enter reserve..."

See, last line from the BRB says it all, they cannot disembark, they all freaking DIE! They enter the reserve as CASUALTIES! I don't need no stinking S10 hits or worry about breaking rules down into sequences. I got it nailed down RAW!!!!

Want to ptay "stupid"? I can get "stupider" than any of you pantywaists. Quibbling over a S10 hit when you can just outright kill the entire squad without even bringing the "RP in reserves" question up. The squad is GONE!

Now, there is a difference between RAW and being hyperliteral while taking things out of context. Which is what the Necron "haters" are doing in this thread.

Maybe you should take into account that some of us who are claiming that they take the Strength 10 hit actually play Necrons before you make baseless accusations that are also against the forum rules.

Yeah while I feel that they dont take s10 hits, I agree with Ghaz that you kinda went a bit out there algesan. Though my post right before yours I still believe is a good RAW rules quote saying that reserves happen even before you place a large blast template on a destroyed flyer, thus they dont take a s10 hit.

algesan wrote:Want to ptay "stupid"? I can get "stupider" than any of you pantywaists.

There is no reason to be mad.

If you get this worked up about a discussion of rules in a forum that is specifically about discussion of rules, you may want to stick to the other areas of this forum.

The problem I have with the disembark argument is that the language in crash and burn is similar to the transport vehicle description of, Explodes! The models take their hit and are then placed on the board. Because it doesn't say that it is explicitly a disembark in that sentence does not mean it is not a disembark move per all of the rules listed prior.

The argument of the vehicle is removed from the table before the S10 hit is resolved is interesting. This definitely lends creed to the embarked units avoiding said hit, as the vehicle has been destroyed AND if now off the table, but does that in and of itself cause the codex trigger? Again, the rule in the codex references that they do not disembark, but instead enter reserves. I still don't see where the flyer leaving the board allows to you not have to resolve the rules listed before the disembark. The wording for taking the hit and placement only differs by the statement that the flyer's passengers are placed within 3" of the final scatter.

Again, I'd like to clarify that this is for rules clarification and am exploring the wording in depth to see if we can come to a conclusion that is fully resolved. If you have formed your own opinion already or don't want to hear it anymore, you can just not click on this thread.

Katfude, the reason that 'explode' and 'crash and burn' is not a disembark is precisely BECAUSE they are not called a disembark. You must ignore all rules about how disembark works, because disembark works completely differently now, and is incompatible with 'explode' and 'crash and burn.'

For example, to disembark you measure from the vehicles access points/hull and make a move, following movement rules, from there. Exploded ground/crashed flyers both remove the model first and then have you place models anywhere within a particular distance later, with no movement involved.

Ok, I get you. That makes sense.

I honestly believe that there is enough evidence to suggest that the hit does not occur, but damn, wouldn't a proper FAQ be just dandy?

Actually, the codex rule says "If destroyed, do not disembark, instead enter Reserve."
Which means you must have been able to disembark in the first place.

Instead of eating roast beef, eat a salad.
Instead of shooting, use a PSA.
Instead of disembarking, enter Reserves.

I've never said there isnt timing involved. I've said that the S10 hit resolves before disembarking/placement. Which it does as you've shown.

The Night Scythe rule does nothing right now, actually - but assuming it works, you still take the hit before being placed into reserves.

Does the wording change at all in the iPad codex? Apparently it lists Hyperphase Swords as AP3, so there could be all sorts of things missing from the FAQ in there.

That'd be super bullcrap if they did a bunch of amendments via digital codex that aren't available in the FAQ. Wouldn't put it past GW, though.

Rigeld2, the codex reads differently than how you read it.

"If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve."

So first thing to note, the unit is not allowed to disembark anyway. Invasion beams only allow a disembark before or after the flyer moves. Whats more, as stated, you NEVER disembark from a flyer that is destroyed. Thus, 'you are not allowed to disembark,' as a condition put onto the embarked unit when the flyer is destroyed, really does nothing.

You seem to be reading it as "you are not allowed to disembark, and INSTEAD OF DISEMBARKING you are placed in reserve.'

If you read it that way, I agree that they take the hits. But that is not how it is worded, and in addition that is not how you get out of a flyer anyway. So the problem is if you DO read it that way it still doesn't work how you mention because you never disembark, and thus never go into reserve (as you link disembark timing with when you go into reserve)--instead you get placed within 3 inches of the template.

So actually, if your flyer gets destroyed, you get a negative condition put on you that does nothing in 6th (The embarked unit is not allowed to disembark--which they already are not allowed to do by virtue of being on a flyer that is zooming) and instead of not having that condition, aka the ability to disembark at the time of the flyers destruction, you go into reserves. This all resolves per the necron book 'When the transport is destroyed' and not after.

That's... pretty funny. A rule that technically does nothing.

While I do not have the FAQ, BRB, or dex in front of me, the rules have been quoted to death here. From these I can only come to the conclusion that it is sloppily written and will most likely get FAQ'd. What I suggest to anyone playing is this: If it is a friendly game, use it as RAI. Meaning no hits, put them in reserve. If you are in a tournament, ask the people running said tournament BEFORE playing. If your opponent is trying to rules lawyer it in a friendly game, pack up and play against someone else. At the end of the day, it is just a game. No need to get your panties in a bunch.

If we could please lay off the name calling and insults please.

Thanks.


Stay calm people

DevianID wrote:Rigeld2, the codex reads differently than how you read it.

It really doesn't.

"If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve."

Correct.

So first thing to note, the unit is not allowed to disembark anyway. Invasion beams only allow a disembark before or after the flyer moves. Whats more, as stated, you NEVER disembark from a flyer that is destroyed. Thus, 'you are not allowed to disembark,' as a condition put onto the embarked unit when the flyer is destroyed, really does nothing.

Correct.

You seem to be reading it as "you are not allowed to disembark, and INSTEAD OF DISEMBARKING you are placed in reserve.'

If you read it that way, I agree that they take the hits. But that is not how it is worded

Really? So what to you go to reserves instead of doing?

and in addition that is not how you get out of a flyer anyway. So the problem is if you DO read it that way it still doesn't work how you mention because you never disembark, and thus never go into reserve (as you link disembark timing with when you go into reserve)--instead you get placed within 3 inches of the template.

Right, so the rule does nothing. Great!

So actually, if your flyer gets destroyed, you get a negative condition put on you that does nothing in 6th (The embarked unit is not allowed to disembark--which they already are not allowed to do by virtue of being on a flyer that is zooming) and instead of not having that condition, aka the ability to disembark at the time of the flyers destruction, you go into reserves. This all resolves per the necron book 'When the transport is destroyed' and not after.

So your assertion is that the flyer is destroyed immediately upon rolling a wrecked result? That's not what the wrecked rules actually say.

The unit must then take a Pinning test. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

So a) the Night Scythe special rule literally does nothing, as you've shown b) even granting that it does, they don't go to reserves until after the vehicle is wrecked
Either way, they take the STR10 hit.

I bolded the important question here - you're asserting that you just ignore the word "instead". The word links the two requirements. Don't do A, instead do B. You're trying to do B when you're not allowed to do A anyway. Can I shoot a PSA during your turn?

I edited this a lot. Sorry about that.

The invasion beam wouldn't function if they were teleported after the ensuing explosion / therefore they don't take the hit.

Except they are embarked. Any embarked units take the hit. You must be embarked to take the hit. This means that you take the hit before you "dont" disembark. If eveyone got to disembark (which is the requirement for us to be placed in reserve) before they took the hit, no one would take the hit. This is not grey, this is black and white.

Dozer Blades wrote:The invasion beam wouldn't function if they were teleported after the ensuing explosion / therefore they don't take the hit.

The Invasion beam isnt what keeps them in reserve. That is what lets a non-hovering transport disembark its troops

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Except they are embarked. Any embarked units take the hit. You must be embarked to take the hit. This means that you take the hit before you "dont" disembark. If eveyone got to disembark (which is the requirement for us to be placed in reserve) before they took the hit, no one would take the hit. This is not grey, this is black and white.

They are not embarked. They are waiting to teleport. Read the fluff... It is what they base the rules upon.

Dozer Blades wrote:They are not embarked. They are waiting to teleport. Read the fluff... It is what they base the rules upon.

...That's a very poor argument to make.

katfude wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:They are not embarked. They are waiting to teleport. Read the fluff... It is what they base the rules upon.

...That's a very poor argument to make.

The sad part is, he's right. The problem arises when you realize that whoever wrote the rule apparently had a stroke and forgot that Crash and Burn isn't Disembark and that the models still "inside" the Night Scythe still take the S10 hits. As it stands, we have a rule that literally does nothing, barring using the fluff as a means of rewriting the rule so it isn't fethin' dumb.

Dozer Blades wrote:

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Except they are embarked. Any embarked units take the hit. You must be embarked to take the hit. This means that you take the hit before you "dont" disembark. If eveyone got to disembark (which is the requirement for us to be placed in reserve) before they took the hit, no one would take the hit. This is not grey, this is black and white.

They are not embarked. They are waiting to teleport. Read the fluff... It is what they base the rules upon.

They are embarked. If they weren't, the couldn't use Invasion Beams to disembark.
Ignore the fluff - fluff isn't actual rules. In YMDC we debate actual rules.

They are not embarked and it says in the codex.

Dozer Blades wrote:They are not embarked and it says in the codex.

So Invasion Beams does nothing, and it's not actually a Transport.

Oh, and can you point to a rule that says they're not embarked? The rules for a Night Scythe on page 51 of the Necron Codex says they are - "the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark", "For the purposes of embarking and disembarking..."

Hint - Check the FAQ.

rigeld2 wrote:Ignore the fluff - fluff isn't actual rules.

Tell that to Mandrakes.

Dozer Blades wrote:They are not embarked and it says in the codex.

Dozer Blades wrote:Hint - Check the FAQ.

Hint: Check FAQ. You're absolutely wrong.
"Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe" (Necron FAQ, page 2)

Invasion Beams do absolutely nothing unless unit is embarked upon Night Scythe.

Please post a page and citation of this rule!

Please ignore this, It was directed towards the "THEY ARE NOT EMBARKED" comment. The FAQ CLEARLY STATES that they ARE!.

And as far as Sharpie Redacting you may as well take a SHARPIE to the Wound/Armor save/to hit/ and pretty much all other characteristic test based rules RULES in regards to the Space Marine fluff.

Still doesn't help your case...

GW FAQ wrote: a unit that began it's Movement Phase embarked....

the FAQ still talks about the unit being embarked in the transport

Edit: damn, ninja'd

Dozer Blades wrote:Hint - Check the FAQ.

Hint: check it yourself. It states, under the entry for Invasion Beams, that an embarked unit is allowed to use them.

Or are you claiming Invasion Beams, your ONLY way of disembarking, cannot be used?

Dozer Blades wrote:Hint - Check the FAQ.

That's amusing. As pointed out the FAQ supports me.
Care to quote an actual rule that supports them not being embarked?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dooley wrote:Please post a page and citation of this rule!

Which one? The Night Scythe one is page 51 of the Necron Codex - it's been quoted in this thread.
Crash and Burn (the source of the S10 hit) is page 81 in the BRB, bottom left corner.