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question came up in my last game:

Can a flamer be fired just for gaks and giggles? or does it have to reach the targeted unit?

The reason I ask is for vehicles (read: leman russ) with a hull heavy flamer.

If an enemy unit is directly in front of the russ, and the russ chooses to shoot over their heads at some other target, can it fire the flamer (AT its intended target but INTO the unit at point blank)?

If you're out of range of your target unit, you don't shoot at all.

Legally, yes as you have to fire the template to see if what it hits. It just happens to miss the target bu hit the secondary. Same thing as when a template over fires and hit an enemy unit behind the target unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrian wrote:
If you're out of range of your target unit, you don't shoot at all.

The Main gun is in range so the tank does shoot. Template have to be placed to see what they hit, so they fire and see.

Nope it isn't the same thing. If you can't hit your primary target with a flamer you can't fire it. The rules allow you to scatter onto a different target but flamers don't scatter.

barnowl wrote:
Legally, yes as you have to fire the template to see if what it hits. It just happens to miss the target bu hit the secondary. Same thing as when a template over fires and hit an enemy unit behind the target unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrian wrote:
If you're out of range of your target unit, you don't shoot at all.

The Main gun is in range so the tank does shoot. Template have to be placed to see what they hit, so they fire and see.

Yep, gets placed, but if it hits no models in the target unit(because it is, y'know, out of range) then it defaults to the rules for weapons being out of range: no shots are fired.

Placing the template is the same as checking the range, since the range is template.

You can over fire, you can hit an intervening unit, in both cases you can only hit those units so long as you have as many models from the target unit as possible.

barnowl wrote:
The Main gun is in range so the tank does shoot.

Range is checked on a weapon-by-weapon basis. You don't get to fire your heavy bolter just because your battlecannon is in range! Same with the heavy flamer.

barnowl wrote:
Template have to be placed to see what they hit, so they fire and see.

You don't get to check what you hit until you're already determined to be in range of your target. The template rules do not modify this rule.

So if you have a vehicle mounted flamer and declare a shot at a vehicle 36" away, the flamer misses, but then can you still activate the searchlights?

Kevlar wrote:
So if you have a vehicle mounted flamer and declare a shot at a vehicle 36" away, the flamer misses, but then can you still activate the searchlights?

No. The searchlight is used after firing the vehicle's weapons. If a weapon is out of range, it doesn't fire.

I wish searchlight rules didn't change so often.

...I swear, reading the searchlight rules, it looks like a vehicle has to fire ALL its weapons to activate the searchlight. I.e., if one sponson is out of LOS of its target, no searchlight for you. ...That can't be right.

Pyrian wrote:
You don't get to check what you hit until you're already determined to be in range of your target. The template rules do not modify this rule.

It has to, otherwise you could never fire the flamer. The range is the template, you have to put it down to see if you are in range. If you cannot check that until you know you are in range then you can't fire anything because you cannot check its range. Once in range you have to position it to hit as many models as possible. If you are not in range you do not fire.

Pyrian wrote:
I wish searchlight rules didn't change so often.

...I swear, reading the searchlight rules, it looks like a vehicle has to fire ALL its weapons to activate the searchlight. I.e., if one sponson is out of LOS of its target, no searchlight for you. ...That can't be right.

Its not, it means that you cannot fire any further weapons from the vehicle with the searchlight. The vehicle shooting cannot gain the benefit from its own searchlight, that turn.

Fragile wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
I wish searchlight rules didn't change so often.

...I swear, reading the searchlight rules, it looks like a vehicle has to fire ALL its weapons to activate the searchlight. I.e., if one sponson is out of LOS of its target, no searchlight for you. ...That can't be right.

Its not, it means that you cannot fire any further weapons from the vehicle with the searchlight. The vehicle shooting cannot gain the benefit from its own searchlight, that turn.

This makes more sense and is still supported by the rules.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
You don't get to check what you hit until you're already determined to be in range of your target. The template rules do not modify this rule.

It has to, otherwise you could never fire the flamer. The range is the template, you have to put it down to see if you are in range. If you cannot check that until you know you are in range then you can't fire anything because you cannot check its range. Once in range you have to position it to hit as many models as possible. If you are not in range you do not fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
You don't get to check what you hit until you're already determined to be in range of your target. The template rules do not modify this rule.

It has to, otherwise you could never fire the flamer. The range is the template, you have to put it down to see if you are in range. If you cannot check that until you know you are in range then you can't fire anything because you cannot check its range. Once in range you have to position it to hit as many models as possible. If you are not in range you do not fire.

Not true. You can place the template, check range, then remove it before counting hits.
Nothing in the template rules overrides the need to be in range of your target.

I guess we're in violent agreement then.

Then what's your disagreement with me, then, since I'm arguing the same side as rigeld2?

Basially you probably still shoot it but it has no effect so theres NO point of putting it in the game

Pyrian wrote:
Then what's your disagreement with me, then, since I'm arguing the same side as rigeld2?

I'm pretty sure I misunderstood your point if that is the case. We are all in agreement then.

I thought you were arguing that there was one placement of the template and you had to know you were in range to even place the template.


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 FenWulf29 wrote:
Basially you probably still shoot it but it has no effect so theres NO point of putting it in the game

Actually, the rules say you do not fire if you are not in range.

I have had a situation where where 5 fire dragons shot a chimera and the exarch used a heavy flamer on the side of the chimera (it was in range) while the flamer did no damage to the tank it cooked about 7 IG in between the Dragons and chimera.

Were the IG in the tank and it got wrecked, or had they recently disembarked on their turn?

They were between the fire dragons and the chimera before shooting started.

I would say the guardsmen take some flamer hits in that case.

As long as the tank was in range of the flamer.

That's perfectly legitimate, shoot something that's only just in range in order to get a bunch of guys from a squad in the middle.

However - remember that you must cover as many models in the target unit as possible, no deliberately grazing the target unit in order to get extra hits on the intermediate squad.

Likewise, if you flame a vehicle in front of you in order to hit some guys on the other side you must cover as much of the vehicle as possible with the template, not graze the vehicle to maximise hits on the collateral damage squad.