Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With 6th edition, which one is the safer bet to run on your sergeants? Power swords, or Powerfists?

power fists are still so snazzy, but I think I actually like swords now more. Nothing says "why am I taking this upgrade?" like the model holding it getting sniped out before it makes it into close combat or, because they swing last, getting into close combat and having the sergeant shanked by a guard sergeant with nothing more than a combat knife because he got to attack at I3.

Given that hidden weapon upgrades are no longer hidden, it doesn't make as much sense to spend a bunch of points on them, or at least not to rely on them.

The sword still gives you some CC power, and gets to preserve I4, so you'll actually get to swing it most times. That or give them a mace. It's basically the ability to give your sergeant a relic blade.

I also like the Power Weapons over Power Fists, mainly because the Fists do not get the +1 attack and have numerous draw backs now. Only take it if you plan on using it offensively for tank busting.

With a powerfist you get challenged.
a)either you do not hit this time.
b)you get hit first and die before swinging.

Obviously there is slightly more to it than that but that is the crux of the argument.
Powerswords are more likely to be able to swing then meltabombs are there when you need the high strength(apart from the odd instant kill.)

With combat tactics go plain(I like to bring to meltabombs and sometimes a combi.)

Well, I like to at least throw something like a power fist/sword on my sarges to give them at least a little boost in CC. And I figured maybe Powerfists in case of walkers. But I never like leaving my sarge bare. It makes me feel a little more exposed.

I prefer too the PW FAST AND EASY

The problem with adding a fist for the walkers is that walkers can challenge. So you charge in, the walker challenges. You either accept(walker gets 2-3 attacks and one needs one wound to kill your fist) or you decline and dont get to use your fist.

Now that you can use grenades for walkers up to AV12 you dont really need the fist for anything except ironclads, landraiders and monoliths, and fists arent very good at any of those really.

So power swords are better?

i think that a power maul or a power sword may be your best bet, as with both you are hitting at l4.
it is just really a choice between do you want more strength? go with the maul, and if you want to cut through power armored units, go with the sword.

As for the axe, might as well take a fist at that point.

 farrowking37 wrote:


As for the axe, might as well take a fist at that point.

10 points and 1 less attack. 3 attacks are better than 2. You are going to be wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ but you will still do more damage to T4 with the axe and its cheaper.

I can get these for Tact Squads? Is this in the new rulebook? (I sadly don't own one, just a download.)

So, a Maul or Sword is the best bet? What page is it on?

 Exergy wrote:

 farrowking37 wrote:


As for the axe, might as well take a fist at that point.

10 points and 1 less attack. 3 attacks are better than 2. You are going to be wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ but you will still do more damage to T4 with the axe and its cheaper.

But the axe doesn't ID anything, and it doesn't really hurt vehicles, or even monstrous creatures that much. Plus, the +1 attack is largely neutralized by the +1 to wound.

The axe gives you a little more killing power against things that you should just take a power sword for. The power fist gives you the ability to kill things that a power weapon won't.

Seriously, take the fist over the axe when you can.

So, maybe one squad with a fist, and another with a sword/mace?

And what should a sternguard sarge have?

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
So, maybe one squad with a fist, and another with a sword/mace?

And what should a sternguard sarge have?

A combi-weapon. Sternguard should not spend points on CC weapons.

 Exergy wrote:

 farrowking37 wrote:


As for the axe, might as well take a fist at that point.

10 points and 1 less attack. 3 attacks are better than 2. You are going to be wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ but you will still do more damage to T4 with the axe and its cheaper.

true, but the fist hits at s 8 instead of s 4, so the 2 attacks you will get are more likely to put down wounds.

I tried putting a PF on my Sternguard but didn't do well. However, I had Pedro in a unit of Sternguard rush up to a Dreadknight and take it off the board. I have had Tactical squad sergeants with PFs do the same. I tend to use them on my Tac squads, and do me pretty well, mostly because they get charged alot by Monstrous creatures, and can put some wounds on it. Power Weapons are still good, as I don't fight Terminators too often. If I do take Power weapons, I normally take the Maul.

If we're talking C:SM, here's my theory for power weapons on Tac squads:

Your Tactical Squad is good at shooting, and not so good at CC. When you get into CC, it will be with one of two types of units: either they are better than you in CC (aka, 95% of units that will be charging you), and the power weapon/fist won't save you, or they are GEQ (aka, the only units you're going to want to charge), and the power weapon/fist is unnecessary because your regular Marines can beat them down. If the enemy is too much for the regular Tac guys to handle, you should really be using Combat Tactics to fall back and rapid fire the enemy in your next turn.

With the Tac Squad's role thus defined, the power weapon/fist becomes more of an insurance policy, a 15-25 point investment to protect your ~200 point unit in those cases where you can't avoid combat and/or those couple power weapon swings will make the difference. To me, a power sword or maul is worth the 15 points, because it can help out in those situations where the Tac Squad has a chance and needs something to tip the balance - when you take a challenge from that enemy squad leader, in a combat that could be close. At 25 points, the fist isn't worth it, especially because the targets you'll really need it against (MCs, walkers) will munch through the squad regardless. If they can challenge (a large subset of MCs/walkers), they'll kill you before you swing, tossing that 25 points down the toilet. If you're worried about vehicles, you shouldn't be, because krak grenades on the squad will take care of just about anything, and melta bombs are a much cheaper alternative for high AV.

So, IMO, either just a basic power sword/maul, or simply CCW and melta bombs, are sufficient for a Tac Squad. Anything more won't give you a very good return on your investment.

 farrowking37 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 farrowking37 wrote:


As for the axe, might as well take a fist at that point.

10 points and 1 less attack. 3 attacks are better than 2. You are going to be wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ but you will still do more damage to T4 with the axe and its cheaper.

true, but the fist hits at s 8 instead of s 4, so the 2 attacks you will get are more likely to put down wounds.

axes strike at str5 not 4
for T3 it makes little difference(ID only)
for T4 its a slight advantage.
for T5+ and armor the fist is obviously better but most things in the game are T3 or T4

I can see your point on Tact Marines. It does make a lot of sense.

I think throwing a power sword on em seems better. And a power mace sounds okay if I need to hit a little harder.

Maybe swords in my Tact Squads and a Fist/Mace in the sternguard?

I thnk that a Power weapon on Sternguard is not a waste of points. I deploy them in a a Drop Pod, a.k.a offensively, and they do get into CC eventually.

Mine will be in a drop pod cause... Well, I'm doing Salamanders. Meltas and Flamers forever!

So, would a fist be good? Or Mace?

Although this is probably not quite the advice you want to hear but I would go with neither on the sergeant. You do not want your marines in combat and across the army the number of points you will be spending could be better spent on more troops or actual CC specialists.

(Assumed against MEQ)
Regular attacks is going to be .25 wounds or .33 on the charge
Power sword is going to do .75 wounds or 1 on the charge
Power Maul is going to do .42 wounds or .55 wounds on the charge
Power Fist is going to do .88333 wounds or 1.25 on the charge
An extra marine will do much more over the course of the game either via bolter wounds or just providing another body for the unit.

At most I would give him a melta bomb and combi weapon, but I am not much of a fan for combi weapons. I would rather save the points and buy a model who can do it all the time.

I would rather take two meltas/multimeltas in sternguard than combi meltas. You want to be in rapid fire range for your sternguard anyway so why not fire a few melta shots as well, they still do a good job of killing infantry and for the same points as a combi melta. Also if you have vulkan then even better as they are now twin-linked EVERY turn

To answer this question, you really need to understand the intricacies of challenges. When you get locked into combat with a unit that has one or more characters, or worse, a unit that is a single character (like a tervigon or Mephiston), then you are going to have a choice, go all in with your power fist/axe/mail/sword, or choose not to use it. In many cases this choice is lose-lose. However, if you were planning on having one or more additional characters join to the unit, then power weapons and fists get a LOT more viable. Tankier ICs can eat the challenges, while your sergeant is free to go to town.

For a squad that isn't going to be graced with the presence of an IC, the highest I'd consider would be a power sword and Possibly a power maul. The reason is that either of those weapons would give you an edge in the "scoring unit versus scoring unit" slapfights that tend to happen in mid to late games. I would buy as many power fists as possible in a unit that was going to become the basis for an IC carrier.

The most important point is to not overspend on cc upgrades with some uncalibrated expectation of what the unit is going to be capable of.

I see what you both are saying. Yes, I was gonna throw a Meltagun into the Sternguard. Would a Multi-Melta be good too? (They're in a Drop pod)

Vulkan will be riding around with the Sternguard, so would a power maul in that squad be sufficient? When I add my terminators to the list, I might drop the maul from the sternguard.

As for my tacticals, I think a combi-weapon/chainsword combo will be enough for the sergeants (but I will sadly have to replace an arm on one of my Sarges).

Leth wrote:Although this is probably not quite the advice you want to hear but I would go with neither on the sergeant. You do not want your marines in combat and across the army the number of points you will be spending could be better spent on more troops or actual CC specialists.

(Assumed against MEQ)
Regular attacks is going to be .25 wounds or .33 on the charge
Power sword is going to do .75 wounds or 1 on the charge
Power Maul is going to do .42 wounds or .55 wounds on the charge
Power Fist is going to do .88333 wounds or 1.25 on the charge
An extra marine will do much more over the course of the game either via bolter wounds or just providing another body for the unit.

At most I would give him a melta bomb and combi weapon, but I am not much of a fan for combi weapons. I would rather save the points and buy a model who can do it all the time.

I would rather take two meltas/multimeltas in sternguard than combi meltas. You want to be in rapid fire range for your sternguard anyway so why not fire a few melta shots as well, they still do a good job of killing infantry and for the same points as a combi melta. Also if you have vulkan then even better as they are now twin-linked EVERY turn

I'd like to point out that your numbers for the regular Marines are wrong. The gap between regular Marines and power weapons is actually greater. Assuming we're talking about Sternguard, it should be looking like this:

Regular attacks - .17 wounds or .25 on the charge

If you were talking about regular Tac marines, it would be .08 wounds or .17 on the charge.

For the record, I mostly agree with your point. I don't think that, taken on an army-wide level, the choice between power weapons and more bodies is as clear-cut as you describe. Shep hits the point in a more subtle fashion.

However, I would argue against taking meltas in a sternguard unit. Odds are that Sternguard aren't going to need to pop more than one vehicle in a game. For this, combi-meltas are better, because you can take more of them. Force concentration is worth the premium you pay, whether it's on Sternguard or a Tac Sergeant. Two meltaguns are more likely to succeed than one in that one critical turn you need it, and five will kill your target almost every time, particularly now with hull points. Furthermore, you pay a premium on Sternguard for the special ammunition, and combi-meltas keep that available to you. With the changes to Rapid Fire, you can reach out and touch someone at 30" if necessary. In a Vulkan list, taking meltas anywhere isn't a bad choice, and in that situation meltaguns wouldn't be so bad.

Shep wrote:To answer this question, you really need to understand the intricacies of challenges. When you get locked into combat with a unit that has one or more characters, or worse, a unit that is a single character (like a tervigon or Mephiston), then you are going to have a choice, go all in with your power fist/axe/mail/sword, or choose not to use it. In many cases this choice is lose-lose. However, if you were planning on having one or more additional characters join to the unit, then power weapons and fists get a LOT more viable. Tankier ICs can eat the challenges, while your sergeant is free to go to town.

For a squad that isn't going to be graced with the presence of an IC, the highest I'd consider would be a power sword and Possibly a power maul. The reason is that either of those weapons would give you an edge in the "scoring unit versus scoring unit" slapfights that tend to happen in mid to late games. I would buy as many power fists as possible in a unit that was going to become the basis for an IC carrier.

The most important point is to not overspend on cc upgrades with some uncalibrated expectation of what the unit is going to be capable of.

This, I think, hits the nail on the head. For a Sternguard squad running with Vulkan, I would take an axe for the AP2, since Vulkan can safely tank most other characters. For a Tac squad, like Shep said, it's basically an insurance policy in those "scoring unit slapfights," which is a great way to articulate it.

Would a fist or an axe be better for the sternguard?

Yeah, I'm reconsidering what I throw on my Tacticals. Honestly, I think a Combi-weapon is all I really need on them.

I actually had this exact same dilemma choosing for my Wolf Guard that were to lead my Grey Hunter squads. I, instinctively, chose powerfists but with the advice listed here i am rethinking it. Frost Blades seem to be a no brainer. Thoughts?

My friend plays Space Wolves. He'd say Frost Axes and Frost Swords are the way to go. Every time.

I would just chuck Vulkan into challenges, else maybe use a plain sternguard serg. as sacrificial lamb, against certain characters Vulkan isn't as amazing in cc as you would think.
They will most likely combat squad, I just do not see 5 marines surviving most nasty combat anyway.

Combiweapon and pistol. The chainsword does nothing.

 Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Would a fist or an axe be better for the sternguard?

Yeah, I'm reconsidering what I throw on my Tacticals. Honestly, I think a Combi-weapon is all I really need on them.

If it was anyone but a Sternguard Sergeant, I'd say go for the axe, +1 attack negates the benefits of the fist against most opponents. However, a Sternguard Sergeant doesn't want a bolt pistol, he wants to keep his bolter, so in this case the fist might be better. Plus, if you're practically minded, the Sternguard Sergeant model comes with a fist.

As far as power weapons on Tacticals, if you're running Vulkan, the situation gets more complicated. He takes away your Combat Tactics, which defeats the main purpose in keeping your Sergeants with basic CCWs, which is to auto-fail your Morale check and rapid-fire the enemy next turn. If chances are you're going to be stuck in combat, a sword or maul might be worth the investment. I don't run Vulkan, so it's an easier choice for me.

I don't play Wolves, but I'm pretty sure that Frost Blades on pack leaders are better than fists. Because Grey Hunters are designed to get into close-range firefights and then be able to receive a charge, I'd feel better about justifying the extra investment in the frost blade. I'd go for the frost sword, as it'll perform best in that "scoring unit slapfight" that you might need to deal with. The frost axe seems flat-out superior to the fist against T5 and below, thanks to the extra attack. Against T6+, the fist is still worthwhile.