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Can flying monstrous creatures from the Chaos Daemon codex arrive choose to swoop when they arrive via deepstrike?

BRB page 49. FMC "Deployment". Yes. Easy stuff.

Thank you for the fast response. I happen to agree with your assessment and it does seem like easy stuff, but I was at a tournament today in Orlando FL and I was told by a TO that because of the "swooping" rule further down on page 49 states "it must move at least 12" and deep strike is zero inch movement so they cant count as swooping when they arrive from deep strike.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Thank you for the fast response. I happen to agree with your assessment and it does seem like easy stuff, but I was at a tournament today in Orlando FL and I was told by a TO that because of the "swooping" rule further down on page 49 states "it must move at least 12" and deep strike is zero inch movement so they cant count as swooping when they arrive from deep strike.

Gotcha, it's whatever you declare he wants to be. GW says so. Deep strike rules just say he counts as moved for purposes of firing weapons. Doesn't say how far.

On further review I can see the rub. Gliding allows for deep strike(jump infantry), swooping allows for all the funky saves and movement. This would imply if you deep strike you are gliding that turn, if you reserve from the table edge you can swoop and have to move the compulsory movement. hmmm.

The page containing the FMC rules is horribly written. So many ambiguities.

I have this problem with a friend of mine. Bottom line, the rules are poorely written (to say the least). My non-demon friends and I don't like it, but when deep-striking fmc they can drop on the spot, and not have to move, but count as being swooping so they get the save and everything.

Do remember though that he has to be specific about which way the model is facing due to the turning 90 degrees rule. So your only saving grace could be facing the model wrong and flying right back off the table. Hope you have better luck than I

I can see the RAW issue it's simply unclear how far they count as having moved, so it's impossible to say if they satisfied the Swooping rules or not.

Personally I would allow it along the same vein that Flyers can Deep Strike while Zooming (their's specifies cruising speed, which is always more than the required 18 inches), I figure if one can do it, so can the other.

The specific distance travelled during DS does not have to be specified in the FMC/DS rules because the rule says it can be Swooping when it arrives. The same thing goes for Zooming Flyers. Are you really going to argue that a Stormraven that arrives by DS can zoom but a FMC can't?

 Captain Antivas wrote:
The specific distance travelled during DS does not have to be specified in the FMC/DS rules because the rule says it can be Swooping when it arrives. The same thing goes for Zooming Flyers. Are you really going to argue that a Stormraven that arrives by DS can zoom but a FMC can't?

Technically the rule only says you have to specify if it is swooping or gliding, that may strongly imply permission to swoop, but I'm not sure it necessarily grants said permission by RAW.

Really wish they would add this to their FAQ. Is this something GW would answer via email?

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
The specific distance travelled during DS does not have to be specified in the FMC/DS rules because the rule says it can be Swooping when it arrives. The same thing goes for Zooming Flyers. Are you really going to argue that a Stormraven that arrives by DS can zoom but a FMC can't?

Technically the rule only says you have to specify if it is swooping or gliding, that may strongly imply permission to swoop, but I'm not sure it necessarily grants said permission by RAW.

If you can state that it is swooping then you have permission to be swooping. Since there is no further restriction placed then the permission is granted.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Really wish they would add this to their FAQ. Is this something GW would answer via email?

Although the answer you receive to such an e-mail would hold no weight almost everywhere, sending the question in is still important as this is how question get asked frequently enough to make it into the next FAQ.

pg. 49 BRB: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode."

A unit arriving via Deep Strike is kept in Reserves. As soon as it hits the table, declare if it is swooping or not.

dufus0001 wrote:
pg. 49 BRB: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode."

A unit arriving via Deep Strike is kept in Reserves. As soon as it hits the table, declare if it is swooping or not.

But gliding allows for deep strike as it confers the deep strike rule(jump infantry). Otherwise the argument can be made that swooping has o happen at the table edge(reserve). That's the discussion.

 Byte wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:
pg. 49 BRB: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode."

A unit arriving via Deep Strike is kept in Reserves. As soon as it hits the table, declare if it is swooping or not.

But gliding allows for deep strike as it confers the deep strike rule(jump infantry). Otherwise the argument can be made that swooping has o happen at the table edge(reserve). That's the discussion.

Being a Jump Troop does not automatically give a unit the ability to DS.

And both Gliding and Swooping says they count as jump infantry so even if it did both Gliding and Swooping would give them the option to DS. A Daemon FMC must DS, and when it comes in it has to declare if it is Swooping or Gliding. Please tell me you are not claiming that a Daemon FMC is forced to come in on the board edge. What other FMC can come in by DS?

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 Byte wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:
pg. 49 BRB: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode."

A unit arriving via Deep Strike is kept in Reserves. As soon as it hits the table, declare if it is swooping or not.

But gliding allows for deep strike as it confers the deep strike rule(jump infantry). Otherwise the argument can be made that swooping has o happen at the table edge(reserve). That's the discussion.

Being a Jump Troop does not automatically give a unit the ability to DS.

And both Gliding and Swooping says they count as jump infantry so even if it did both Gliding and Swooping would give them the option to DS. A Daemon FMC must DS, and when it comes in it has to declare if it is Swooping or Gliding. Please tell me you are not claiming that a Daemon FMC is forced to come in on the board edge. What other FMC can come in by DS?

I'm not claiming anything, I'm clarifying the issue being debated. Let's flip it, where does it say Flyer's of any type can enter via deep strike zooming or swooping? Is it the rule of exception? I have no issue with playing it liberal, I could and do use the same models. Doesn't bother me, but doesn't mean I don't think a clarification is in order.

That's funny, BRB page 47 Jump infantry Special rules says otherwise about Deep Strike.

 Byte wrote:


I'm not claiming anything, I'm clarifying the issue being debated. Let's flip it, where does it say Flyer's of any type can enter via deep strike zooming or swooping? Is it the rule of exception? I have no issue with playing it liberal, I could and do use the same models. Doesn't bother me, but doesn't mean I don't think a clarification is in order.

DS is a type of Reserves. Rules that apply to Reserves apply to DS as well, unless the DS rule specifically restricts/changes it. Which it doesn't. However, it does say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark...". And, "and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Cruising Speed...". So they cannot move further, implying they moved in the first place, infantry count as having moved, and vehicles count as having moved at Cruising Speed. But it is a huge jump to believe that a FMC can be considered moving fast enough to justify Swooping. (The huge jump comment was not directed at you but the ones arguing about it. Thank you for clarifying that you were clarifying, I thought you were arguing the point.)

That's funny, BRB page 47 Jump infantry Special rules says otherwise about Deep Strike.

That is pretty funny. I can't believe I read right past that...thanks for calling me out on that. But, like I said both Swooping and Gliding say they count as Jump Troops so Gliding has no benefit, or detriment, over Swooping.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

That's funny, BRB page 47 Jump infantry Special rules says otherwise about Deep Strike.

That is pretty funny. I can't believe I read right past that...thanks for calling me out on that. But, like I said both Swooping and Gliding say they count as Jump Troops so Gliding has no benefit, or detriment, over Swooping.

Needing 6's to be hit seems like a benefit to me! BRB Page 49 "Hard to hit"

Well clearly that, I was referring to how they come on the board not what happens once on the board.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Well clearly that, I was referring to how they come on the board not what happens once on the board.

But isn't that the issue? Being able to deep strike anywhere on the board in a swooping status with no compulsory move resulting in enemies needing 6's to hit. Crazy stuff. But fun! Add some Breath of Chaos spam for some MEQ cleansing.

 Byte wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Well clearly that, I was referring to how they come on the board not what happens once on the board.

But isn't that the issue? Being able to deep strike anywhere on the board in a swooping status with no compulsory move resulting in enemies needing 6's to hit. Crazy stuff. But fun! Add some Breath of Chaos spam for some MEQ cleansing.

That happened to me. Fateweaver scattered right next to my Long Fangs and Grimnar (literally 1.25" away...) and proceeded to kill Grimnar and 2 Long Fangs. I was pissed, but it was legal.

No one gets all up in arms when you say that a Stormraven can Deep Strike anywhere on the board with no compulsory move resulting in enemies needing 6s to hit, and it can shoot 4 weapons still. It counts as moving, the DS rules make this very clear. And so does the FMC.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

That happened to me. Fateweaver scattered right next to my Long Fangs and Grimnar (literally 1.25" away...) and proceeded to kill Grimnar and 2 Long Fangs. I was pissed, but it was legal.

To be fair, you'd have to be downright insane as a demon player to risk a 333 point unit, the single most important unit of your entire army, by deep-striking it within flamer range of enemy troops.

 Testify wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

That happened to me. Fateweaver scattered right next to my Long Fangs and Grimnar (literally 1.25" away...) and proceeded to kill Grimnar and 2 Long Fangs. I was pissed, but it was legal.

To be fair, you'd have to be downright insane as a demon player to risk a 333 point unit, the single most important unit of your entire army, by deep-striking it within flamer range of enemy troops.

Well he scattered 10". He had placed him in the open and that was where he ended up. Worked out for him.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

That happened to me. Fateweaver scattered right next to my Long Fangs and Grimnar (literally 1.25" away...) and proceeded to kill Grimnar and 2 Long Fangs. I was pissed, but it was legal.

To be fair, you'd have to be downright insane as a demon player to risk a 333 point unit, the single most important unit of your entire army, by deep-striking it within flamer range of enemy troops.

Well he scattered 10". He had placed him in the open and that was where he ended up. Worked out for him.

I agree with Testify. Also, I don't consider 'in the open' to mean anywhere I might scatter into enemy troops.

How much terrain do you guys play with? On our tables with the sheer amount of models and terrain nowhere on the board is more than 8" away from something. And the average is about 5".

 Captain Antivas wrote:
How much terrain do you guys play with? On our tables with the sheer amount of models and terrain nowhere on the board is more than 8" away from something. And the average is about 5".

Scattering into terrain isn't a big deal. You might take a wound.
Scattering into enemy models is a big deal. You will mishap.

The only unit nearby was 11.25" away in one direction. Bad luck not bad planning.

 Captain Antivas wrote:


No one gets all up in arms when you say that a Stormraven can Deep Strike anywhere on the board with no compulsory move resulting in enemies needing 6s to hit, and it can shoot 4 weapons still. It counts as moving, the DS rules make this very clear. And so does the FMC.

Actually yes people do. the same issue arises. If the Stormraven is Zooming, it needs to move at least 18". Does DSing mean you have moved 18"?

coredump wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:


No one gets all up in arms when you say that a Stormraven can Deep Strike anywhere on the board with no compulsory move resulting in enemies needing 6s to hit, and it can shoot 4 weapons still. It counts as moving, the DS rules make this very clear. And so does the FMC.

Actually yes people do. the same issue arises. If the Stormraven is Zooming, it needs to move at least 18". Does DSing mean you have moved 18"?

I complain when I do it and when its done to me. It makes me happy to poke fun at the silly rules. Deep strike and any type of flyer doesn't work right now. I'll continue to abuse it and so will others.

coredump wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:


No one gets all up in arms when you say that a Stormraven can Deep Strike anywhere on the board with no compulsory move resulting in enemies needing 6s to hit, and it can shoot 4 weapons still. It counts as moving, the DS rules make this very clear. And so does the FMC.

Actually yes people do. the same issue arises. If the Stormraven is Zooming, it needs to move at least 18". Does DSing mean you have moved 18"?

A DS vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed. So yes it does. And supported by rules.