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Had a game last night that went smoothly UNITILL this happoend: Had an independant character in a squad. My opponent killed everymember of the squad leaving the Independant character. He then wanted to charge the independant character. As this was a Purge the Alien mission and this character was my Warlord (2 Kill points) I made the case that he could NOT charge the independant character because he shot at the SQUAD and now he would have to charge the SQUAD and not the Independant character. Was this the wrong thing to do? Note, the next turn he simply blasted the Character to pieces :(

Until the next movement phase the IC is still a part of the squad and as such can be assaulted if his squad was shot at.

Even if the BRB says that if the squad is killed around the character he then again becomes a single model unit. My thoughts went as follows:
He targets the UNIT
He kills the UNIT leaving the Character
The then wants to charge the CHaracter.

I told him his initial Target was the UNIT
The UNIT is dead so you cannot charge the CHaracter since the Character was not the original target?

The character is part of the unit until the next movement phase when he is voluntarily (or involuntarily) made to move 2" away from the unit that he was previously in. I.E. he was the initial target.

Same thing would happen if he would target the unit and kill solely the character, he could still charge the unit because he was targeting the unit as a whole. It just so happened that he only killed everything but the character or the other way around. The character still stands as part of the unit until the movement phase of the person who controls the character.

Pg 39. If all other models in the unit are killed, he becomes a unit of one at the start of the following phase.


So it appears that he was a unit of one and no longer attached to the squad.

Seems to me that even if he is no longer considered part of the original unit, he was a target of the shooting unit and therefore can be assaulted.

BRB p.39
An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase.

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

The first sentence gives the restriction of when an IC may join or leave a squad i.e. in the movement phase.

If an IC can only join or leave during the movement phase then the 'following phase' referred to in the second sentence can ONLY be the following movement phase.

The IC and the unit he's with were both targets of the shooting attack, it's just you didn't kill the IC.

Foxfyre wrote:

BRB p.39
An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase.

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

The first sentence gives the restriction of when an IC may join or leave a squad i.e. in the movement phase.

If an IC can only join or leave during the movement phase then the 'following phase' referred to in the second sentence can ONLY be the following movement phase.

Can ONLY be the following movement phase is conjecture and speculation. The rule on pg 39 clearly states that the character becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase. Not Movement phase, not shooting phase not assault phase. The FOLLOWING PHASE. If the last member of the squad dies to a dangerous terrain test the IC becomes a single model unit at the start of that turns SHOOTING phase. If the last models dies from an overheat plasma gun the assault phase etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again the target unit was the squad he was attached to in no way was the Character targeted he is simply part of that squad. Once the squad is GONE he then becomes his own unit of one. Since you have to charge the unit you shot at and did not shoot at the Character you could not charge him.

I agree it is its own unit now Dooley, but im not sure that it stops a charge. The IC was part of the unit that got shot at. The fact that he is his own unit now, I'm not sure stops the charge.

BRB p.39
An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase.

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

The underlined section is all that matters. There are no additional rules given that allows an IC to leave his unit during any phase other than the movement phase.
Because he can only join or leave during a movement phase then the 'following phase' can ONLY be the movement phase.

If an IC leaves his unit during the shooting phase then you have broken the rules.
If an IC leaves his unit during the assault phase then you have broken the rules.
If an IC leaves his unit during the movement phase then you have followed the rules.

Not so Foxfyre. The first is an action taken by the IC. The second is an action forced on the IC by an enemy. While it may be intended to have "start of the following movement phase as a rule, it was not specified. As it wasn't specified, its the next phase, whether that is shooting, assault, etc.. Your also comparing two separate paragraphs in the rules. If those two lines were sequential then I would tend to agree with you that it was the case.

Fragile wrote:
I agree it is its own unit now Dooley, but im not sure that it stops a charge. The IC was part of the unit that got shot at. The fact that he is his own unit now, I'm not sure stops the charge.

It comes down to "Is an IC still it's own unit when it's attached to another unit?"

If yes, then you can charge as the IC unit was part of what you shot at.
If no, you cannot charge, but this will have other effects in the rules.

So then whats the need for the second sentance. If they can ONLY leave the unit during the movemnet phase why then add the part about what happens when the squad around him is destroyed? Also how does he move more than 2" away from a unit that is no longer on the board?

Possibly Rigeld, but here I think we are stressing single words too much in the rules. The IC was a model in a unit that was shot at. Changing his status from model to unit at the end of the phase, I think is stretching the RAI.

Now RAW, I can see the argument.

Dooley wrote:
So then whats the need for the second sentance. If they can ONLY leave the unit during the movemnet phase why then add the part about what happens when the squad around him is destroyed? Also how does he move more than 2" away from a unit that is no longer on the board?

The second sentence clarifies what happens when the next movement phase occurs. The IC is no longer with 2" of any other models that formed his unit, he is now a unit of one.
If the second sentence wasn't there then the IC would retain the squad status and any rules that were applied to that unit (Necron Deathmark - Hunters from Hyperspace).

It still seems like one is adding the idea that it is the NEXT MOVEMENT phase. If it was the next movement phase it should say movement phase. However it simply says the next Phase. Sentance one restricts one to voluntarily leaving the unit. Sentance two lets us know what happens if there is no swuad to leave and the the IC has no choice in the matter.

Dooley wrote:
It still seems like one is adding the idea that it is the NEXT MOVEMENT phase. If it was the next movement phase it should say movement phase. However it simply says the next Phase. Sentance one restricts one to voluntarily leaving the unit. Sentance two lets us know what happens if there is no swuad to leave and the the IC has no choice in the matter.

Except that the rule is worded exactly the same way in 5th and worked in the manner described i.e. the IC retains squad status until the following movement phase. There is nothing that defines voluntary and involuntary leaving of a squad, just leaving a squad and the restrictions that are tied to it. You have your restriction as I have repeated twice now and no other rule within that section overrides the fact that the IC may leave a unit only during the movement phase.
The rule even states that an IC cannot leave his squad during the assault or shooting phase, you can't get any more specific than that.

The rule doesn't need to state "the next movement phase" as the restrictions in place leave only the next movement phase as the only phase in which an IC can leave his unit.

Look at it this way then. Say your unit gets shot by a TAC squad and takes 1 hit from an assault weapon and for some odd reason the rest of the weapons miss. Your IC is in the closest model so must take the wound, failes it and dies. From your above logic the TAC squad would be unable to assault the remaining Joes as they shot the IC.

He was a member of the unit during the shooting phase so is eligible to be assaulted. Anything else is hunting for easter eggs that don't exist.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Look at it this way then. Say your unit gets shot by a TAC squad and takes 1 hit from an assault weapon and for some odd reason the rest of the weapons miss. Your IC is in the closest model so must take the wound, failes it and dies. From your above logic the TAC squad would be unable to assault the remaining Joes as they shot the IC.

Not true. The IC is a member of the larger squad, so shooting at him means the whole unit was shot at.
However, since the IC would be a separate unit when the rest of the squad dies, and they were not members of his unit, you cannot apply the reverse.

Lets go one step further then. The IC is in a unit with 2 Joes (lets assume they got shot last round and took a few casualties). IC is in the front and takes 3 hits from assault weapons. LOS is passed on 2 hits and Joes die. LOS is failed on one hit and IC took that wound. Is he now able to be assaulted?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Lets go one step further then. The IC is in a unit with 2 Joes (lets assume they got shot last round and took a few casualties). IC is in the front and takes 3 hits from assault weapons. LOS is passed on 2 hits and Joes die. LOS is failed on one hit and IC took that wound. Is he now able to be assaulted?

Which is exactly what this thread is asking in the OP.
If the IC is still his own unit while joined to another one - Yes, he can be assaulted.
If the IC is not still his own unit while joined to another one - No, he cannot be assaulted.

Foxfyre wrote:
Except that the rule is worded exactly the same way in 5th and worked in the manner described

I agree that the part about voluntarily joining and leaving in the movement phase are identical. However, there was never anything about what happens if an IC is joined with a unit and the unit is killed leaving the IC. IIRC just about everybody here agreed that he was still part of the (now dead) unit until the start of his next movement phase, however there was no actual rule that said one way or the other. Now the rules specify that if a unit is killed, the IC becomes his own unit again in the next phase, which in this case would be the assault phase.

You know the only reason they really put that in there is so you can't claim an IC is still attached to a dead troops choice after your following movement phase to make him scoring for the rest of the game

Also, happyjew, the previous rulebook did spell out that they couldn't join or leave in shooting or assault phases, there's actually nothing there denoting a difference of forced or choice.

Right, and now, if the unit the IC is killed in the next phase he becomes his own unit again. If the unit is killed off in your assault phase, in my Movement phase the IC becomes a unit of his own, not in your next movement phase.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You know the only reason they really put that in there is so you can't claim an IC is still attached to a dead troops choice to make him scoring.

Also, happyjew, the previous rulebook did spell out that they couldn't join or leave in shooting or assault phases, there's actually nothing there denoting a difference of forced or choice.

Well if "I" cant claim he is part of a scoring unit than "YOU" cant claim he is still part of his squad??

Happyjew wrote:
Right, and now, if the unit the IC is killed in the next phase he becomes his own unit again. If the unit is killed off in your assault phase, in my Movement phase the IC becomes a unit of his own, not in your next movement phase.

I agree, I say the IC doesn't become his own unit until the controlling players movement phase. It's how the rules work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dooley wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You know the only reason they really put that in there is so you can't claim an IC is still attached to a dead troops choice to make him scoring.

Also, happyjew, the previous rulebook did spell out that they couldn't join or leave in shooting or assault phases, there's actually nothing there denoting a difference of forced or choice.

Well if "I" cant claim he is part of a scoring unit than "YOU" cant claim he is still part of his squad??

You can't claim that after your movement phase, correct. He's still a scoring unit until either the beginning of your movement phase, he is killed, or if the game ends and he's still alive before "detaching" from the unit. I will edit my previous post for more clarity.

Kevin, the rule specifically says the next phase. Not the next Movement phase, not your next Movement phase, not even your next phase. It simply says phase.

Happyjew wrote:
Kevin, the rule specifically says the next phase. Not the next Movement phase, not your next Movement phase, not even your next phase. It simply says phase.

Oh, hell, so it does. Hm.

Which is why Im saying you cant assault him. Because he has become his own unit.