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Hi dakka,

I've been thinking about starting a blood Angels army, especially with the allies rules as I can start slowly.

The more I've looked into the army, fluff and models, I've been really tempted as they seem really cool...

But.. are they still competitive?

With all the changes to assault and overwatch, for a primarily assaulty army, can they still be a force to be reckoned with. Not uber competitive but capable. It seems balanced hybrid lists is definitely the way to go, can BA do this?

Really just looking for general thoughts on BA as an army

Thanks

Hey man, *shameless plug* this is my BA thread that has had a good load of discussion, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/457800.page

First of all, yes, they're still highly formidable. I can still make opponents crap their pants with Dante's infernus (a little name I call it when I give him a unit of SG with infernuses as well and DS them behind the lines) - suicide furioso dreads are still viable. Sanguinary Guard's 2+ armour makes them more valuable thanks to the adjustments in 6th edition. BA terminators, while.....perhaps a tad less interesting, fluff-wise, are terrifying, especially when you give them a priest in termie armour.

Death Company, while expensive, are devastating. They really can make up their points, even if they lose a couple of guys, thanks to a super-handy furious charge they always have, and WS5, relentless, FNP, AND rage (which now can make them have basically 5 attacks on the charge).

BA Stormravens are among the best flyers in the game, although Necrons naturally have a really horrifying set of flyer capabilities at the moment.

I dislike the notion of a "competitive" army. If you think it is cool, and have fun with the idea of an army that fits your style, go for it. That's what I did, I thought this was an awesome army, and shortly after I decided to start this army, Andilus Greatsword, a good friend and the guy who taught me how to play, grumbled and said "Oh God...that's one of the better armies right now" and honestly, that was only a bonus to an already highly appealing army. If you get an army and all you want to do is have a good chance of winning......don't. It kinda ruins the spirit of the game IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will say this though - the nerf to Furious charge hurts. Having the initiative, in my opinion, made honest sense, as they were furiously charging - they are running into battle with a disengaged unit. Yes, overwatch makes sense, but to be able to fire off a bunch of BS1 shots, take out their weapons and attack at initiative? meeeeh. Just my opinion there. So it will hurt at times. But that is just a case where shooting, on your part, will do good. It's also further reason to keep your sanguinary priests cheap, as losing them, whiel bad, isn't so terrible, although the lack of FNP might hurt. Seriously, I have charged a unit of Grey Hunters, which were previously absolute toast against BA when charged, they not only nuked them in assault, but they lost only 4 men. Again, this was the result of me not necessarily using as much shooting beforehand to soften them up, and I paid for it.

Oh, and don't forget, BA can still get overwatch, and most squads will pack a couple meltaguns. I've managed to get a few good kills using that, and it made me happy

Hey titan, thanks a lot for all the advice man!!

I'm definitely going to go for them, I think I always would this thread is to just kinda justify it a bit more haha before i spend all my money. I went out and bought Dante a box of SG and some DC the other day purely cos they look awesome the fluff is cool and I wanna paint them, so I'm definitely that kind of gamer.

I'm actually out atm but wanted to say thanks for the good advice anyway. I'll post some counter q's tomoz if that's ok.

Btw Im actually pretty sure I read a bat rep you were in the other day where you beat some nids with a list I really liked the look of lol.

Anyway thanks again and I'll post a more specific reply when I have chance

Yeah, that was me. I'm gonna be having another game via VASSAL on Thursday, so keep an eye out for a batrep either here or on my Sanguinius fb page (or both, in all likelihood) - I'll PM you if you're interested.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
haha and thanks! I wrote the list myself, and yeah, the guy who wrote that is not only the guy who taught me, but I went up to where he lived (my old stomping grounds ) and those were my first in-person games with him.

Great fluff, great fun and an awesome army in general. If you're looking for tournament play though, I'd disagree, I don't think they're that competitive anymore. A lot of the stronger points of 6th aren't really BAs specialty so if you're looking for a tournament army, I'm not entirely sure this is it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First GT was fairly abysmal with a single player in spot 9 and the rest in the bottom of the tournament: http://www.goldenthronegt.com/?page_id=362

Non-GT event but still 0 BA players attending: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/465077.page

Still no reason you can't go into a tournament and try. Better than ditching BA for GK or Necrons or other ragequit behaviours I've seen from players. Play well and have a good list, things can turn out well.

Sure, but if the question is "how competitive is BA in 6th?" the answer should be that they're probably of a bit questionable quality at this point.

That said, they're a ton of fun and I still love the playstyle.

I was mainly just trying to take the direction of the discussion away from just how competitive the army is, that's all.


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And there's always the future to bring us some goodies

DoA lists have taken a huge nerf due to you now only being allowed to put 50% of your army in reserve at the start of the game. Never played a Razor spam list so cant say if it is still viable.

^ but you can at least create a hybrid, and deep striking certain units can still wreck the enemy.

That being said, the nerf hurts, it really does.

Stoffer wrote:
Sure, but if the question is "how competitive is BA in 6th?" the answer should be that they're probably of a bit questionable quality at this point.

That said, they're a ton of fun and I still love the playstyle.

Pretty much. They were better in 5th, but are still a competitive choice. Although I'd still argue they can hold their own at the moment, and when/if they get flakk missiles then they might see some more tournament play.

As for the future... maybe they'll get a chapter approved model in WD at some point, but I'd be surprised if they saw a new Codex before 7th, or maybe even 8th, edition.

Stoffer wrote:
Great fluff, great fun and an awesome army in general. If you're looking for tournament play though, I'd disagree, I don't think they're that competitive anymore. A lot of the stronger points of 6th aren't really BAs specialty so if you're looking for a tournament army, I'm not entirely sure this is it.

Why are they not competitive? They lost out on the same things as everybody else, however BA's most popular list with mass jump packs, which didn't lose out too much. That list still works, with a slight modification to make sure the one that have to deploy don't die. Pod lists are brilliant. Pred-SPAM is still very strong. Considering most armies had the means to be competitive in 5th, I'm curious what your criteria is now, 'cause if you don't think BA can cut it, then you are looking at about 5 armies that you might consdier competitive.

Here is how BA's lost in 6th.

1. Furious Charge. BA's relied on going first in assault. 10 Marines charge in making 30 Attacks before the other side gets to swing. Is how we managed our losses. Now the other side gets to shoot at us (Though not as effective) and goes at the same time. That means we lose more guys on our own assaults. And we lose about the same on the turns we were assaulted.

2. FNP - Kind of a mixed bag. Dropped to 5+(16%) drop, but works on more stuff. Really this means BA dies to more things it should not, and lives against more things it should not. I really think the next effect is a lost for the BA.

3. Power Weapon Nerf - As mentioned going first was our key feature. That along with "AP2" Power weapons, we were able to charge into Termies, and other Deathstar units. We would die, but we would take a fair amount with us. Now, we either bounce off their armour, or are forced to go last just for a chance to punch their armour.

4. Wound Allocation - BA want to be in assault. The wound allocation hurts us two ways. First when we get shot dead modes comes from the front, meaning we lose ground. Second, when we shot units to soften them up, they come from the front which means we lose ground. On average we gained 1" of assault range, but lose about 2-3" from wound allocation. It also means we can't run flamers up front, because they are the first to die. You can't run them in back because they can't fire.

5. No assaulting from Vehicles (other than assault vehicles) and no assaulting the turn you arrive from reserves really slows down an assault army. It also means you have to stay there an take a full turn of shooting before you launch an assault. Personally, not a great solution.

While it is true these changes effect everyone, most other armies were not built around assault. BA are. Everyone of these changes nerf assault. If you can't see how nerfing assault really cripples an Assault Army then I don't know what else to say.

jbunny wrote:
Here is how BA's lost in 6th.

1. Furious Charge. BA's relied on going first in assault. 10 Marines charge in making 30 Attacks before the other side gets to swing. Is how we managed our losses. Now the other side gets to shoot at us (Though not as effective) and goes at the same time. That means we lose more guys on our own assaults. And we lose about the same on the turns we were assaulted.

2. FNP - Kind of a mixed bag. Dropped to 5+(16%) drop, but works on more stuff. Really this means BA dies to more things it should not, and lives against more things it should not. I really think the next effect is a lost for the BA.

3. Power Weapon Nerf - As mentioned going first was our key feature. That along with "AP2" Power weapons, we were able to charge into Termies, and other Deathstar units. We would die, but we would take a fair amount with us. Now, we either bounce off their armour, or are forced to go last just for a chance to punch their armour.

4. Wound Allocation - BA want to be in assault. The wound allocation hurts us two ways. First when we get shot dead modes comes from the front, meaning we lose ground. Second, when we shot units to soften them up, they come from the front which means we lose ground. On average we gained 1" of assault range, but lose about 2-3" from wound allocation. It also means we can't run flamers up front, because they are the first to die. You can't run them in back because they can't fire.

5. No assaulting from Vehicles (other than assault vehicles) and no assaulting the turn you arrive from reserves really slows down an assault army. It also means you have to stay there an take a full turn of shooting before you launch an assault. Personally, not a great solution.

While it is true these changes effect everyone, most other armies were not built around assault. BA are. Everyone of these changes nerf assault. If you can't see how nerfing assault really cripples an Assault Army then I don't know what else to say.

You forgot the other big one: you can now only have 50% of your army in reserve at the start of the game. This REALLY hurts DoA lists to the point where they're not even viable anymore. DoA's both on deep striking near the enemy and staying in reserve so that the opponent can't shoot them until its too late. Now at least 50& of your army is going to be blown to hell before the other half arrives, and by then you'll probably have too few assault marines to do much of anything.

Thanks everyone, it seems like they are what I was looking for - a really fun, cool army with great fluff and looking cool. However, they may not be as competitive as they once were due to the assault nerfs.

Myself I wouldn't be looking at them for tournaments etc anyway, just friendly games but wondered how they stacked up anyway.

I guess now my questions would revolve around best units and I know there is a lot of info out there already.

I'm thinking an army basis of assault troops, with some devastators (ML and LC) and a tactical squad to provide a ground force, maybe some tanks like the vindicator or some dreads for firepower.

Then the extras like a few furioso dreads or DC dreads with blood talons or blood fists (not sure which is better really? situational?), possibly a single storm raven, maybe a vanguard or sternguard veteran squad (sternguard with melta or plasma, vanguard kitted out for assault)

Then the units that drew me in... death company and sanguinary guard - DC with a mix of weapons, SG with infernus.

And for the HQ's Dante and a librarian. And ofcourse some priests to make everything work.

It's a dreamt up list i know with all the cool stuff in, but I'm guessing most of these are the basis for a good Blood Angels army..?

Again I'd like to point out that by good I just mean able to hold their own - not go winning tournaments or anything.

And finally titan that'd be great if you could send a pm or something, thanks.

Thanks again everyone!

I'd say the biggest setbacks my BA face are the following:

Random Charge Length. Moving only 6" so that I can reroll my Charge Distance sucks compared to moving 12", and not having to roll anywhere near as well. But that also means giving up the Hammer of Wrath attacks.

Multiassaulting is bad now. For an army that never had a lot of units, it required Multiassaults to effectively engage MSU armies. Losing Furious Charge, doubling the amount of Overwatch fire, and potentially not even getting to engage the second unit all adds up to suck.

It's an outgrowth of the 2nd item, but the loss of "No Retreat" wounds hurt badly. It was the best way a BA jumper army had for dealing with horde orks, tyranid monstrous creatures, and other fearless assault units. Combine this with the Multiassaulting nerf and the days of jumping into 30 termagants and a pair of carnifexes, butchering the gaunts, losing a few Marines to the carnifexes, and having both monstrous creatures go down to "No Retreat" wounds diminished the finesse of the army.

Challenges suck. Aside from Space Marine Captains and some ICs, Marine characters blow for Challenges. Sergeants, Librarians, and Sanguinary Priests can't get invulnerable saves (other than sergeants with a 6+ from a combat shield), Chaplains are stuck with AP4 weapons, and only Reclusiarchs and Captains are I5.

The improved ability to Rally means a unit that escapes from losing combat can rally and shoot you in the face, rather than you being able to harry them off the board.

The changes to reserves didn't matter because I found, ages ago, that Deep Striking the whole army actually sucks. Being on the board meant I got into combat more efficiently and faster, whereas dropping in meant it was T3 before I could assault, and often found myself getting assaulted first unless I dropped so conservatively that it made Deep Striking pointless.

All in all, the game is skewed even further towards shooting then 5th was, and Jumper BA took it in the shorts pretty hard.

Razorspam might be stronger, but I doubt it. I haven't played enough of it to say one way or the other.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

jbunny wrote:
Here is how BA's lost in 6th.

1. Furious Charge. BA's relied on going first in assault. 10 Marines charge in making 30 Attacks before the other side gets to swing. Is how we managed our losses. Now the other side gets to shoot at us (Though not as effective) and goes at the same time. That means we lose more guys on our own assaults. And we lose about the same on the turns we were assaulted.

2. FNP - Kind of a mixed bag. Dropped to 5+(16%) drop, but works on more stuff. Really this means BA dies to more things it should not, and lives against more things it should not. I really think the next effect is a lost for the BA.

3. Power Weapon Nerf - As mentioned going first was our key feature. That along with "AP2" Power weapons, we were able to charge into Termies, and other Deathstar units. We would die, but we would take a fair amount with us. Now, we either bounce off their armour, or are forced to go last just for a chance to punch their armour.

4. Wound Allocation - BA want to be in assault. The wound allocation hurts us two ways. First when we get shot dead modes comes from the front, meaning we lose ground. Second, when we shot units to soften them up, they come from the front which means we lose ground. On average we gained 1" of assault range, but lose about 2-3" from wound allocation. It also means we can't run flamers up front, because they are the first to die. You can't run them in back because they can't fire.

5. No assaulting from Vehicles (other than assault vehicles) and no assaulting the turn you arrive from reserves really slows down an assault army. It also means you have to stay there an take a full turn of shooting before you launch an assault. Personally, not a great solution.

While it is true these changes effect everyone, most other armies were not built around assault. BA are. Everyone of these changes nerf assault. If you can't see how nerfing assault really cripples an Assault Army then I don't know what else to say.

You forgot the other big one: you can now only have 50% of your army in reserve at the start of the game. This REALLY hurts DoA lists to the point where they're not even viable anymore. DoA's both on deep striking near the enemy and staying in reserve so that the opponent can't shoot them until its too late. Now at least 50& of your army is going to be blown to hell before the other half arrives, and by then you'll probably have too few assault marines to do much of anything.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I'd say the biggest setbacks my BA face are the following:

Random Charge Length. Moving only 6" so that I can reroll my Charge Distance sucks compared to moving 12", and not having to roll anywhere near as well. But that also means giving up the Hammer of Wrath attacks.

Multiassaulting is bad now. For an army that never had a lot of units, it required Multiassaults to effectively engage MSU armies. Losing Furious Charge, doubling the amount of Overwatch fire, and potentially not even getting to engage the second unit all adds up to suck.

It's an outgrowth of the 2nd item, but the loss of "No Retreat" wounds hurt badly. It was the best way a BA jumper army had for dealing with horde orks, tyranid monstrous creatures, and other fearless assault units. Combine this with the Multiassaulting nerf and the days of jumping into 30 termagants and a pair of carnifexes, butchering the gaunts, losing a few Marines to the carnifexes, and having both monstrous creatures go down to "No Retreat" wounds diminished the finesse of the army.

Challenges suck. Aside from Space Marine Captains and some ICs, Marine characters blow for Challenges. Sergeants, Librarians, and Sanguinary Priests can't get invulnerable saves (other than sergeants with a 6+ from a combat shield), Chaplains are stuck with AP4 weapons, and only Reclusiarchs and Captains are I5.

The improved ability to Rally means a unit that escapes from losing combat can rally and shoot you in the face, rather than you being able to harry them off the board.

The changes to reserves didn't matter because I found, ages ago, that Deep Striking the whole army actually sucks. Being on the board meant I got into combat more efficiently and faster, whereas dropping in meant it was T3 before I could assault, and often found myself getting assaulted first unless I dropped so conservatively that it made Deep Striking pointless.

All in all, the game is skewed even further towards shooting then 5th was, and Jumper BA took it in the shorts pretty hard.

Razorspam might be stronger, but I doubt it. I haven't played enough of it to say one way or the other.

Let me just add to the list:

Fearless wounds was how I dealt with horde armies. I'd pretty consistently beat 200 model ork armies purely because every time I won combat, I'd pick extra models off. Now the thought of fighting a green tide and coming out on top is pretty much gone. There's basically no way I can put out enough wounds, almost no matter how well I roll.

Speaking of green tide, overwatch might not do much if you have 30 boys, but if you're assaulting with a 10 man assault squad, you really feel those losses, especially with rapid fire weapons (rapid fire boost hurt us too as a matter of that not being our weapon system).

FnP nerf going from 50% survive-ability didn't really help either. My issue was never the single guy with a melta gun, but rather massed small arms fire (oh hello, another cornerstone of 6th edition!).

I thought the BA HQ section was pretty dire to begin with and Mephiston going to AP3 didn't help that. It's really not much of a consolation that you can pick powers from the BYB, as he absolutely needs wings to even remotely do anything.

In response to the HQ part, Dante is still solid. I didn't really end up liking Mephiston in the end, but his AP3 thing is blown out of proportion. Honestly, I didn't really pit him against too many 2+ guys in the first place, as the most common ones with that sort of armour, to me, have been terminators, and that's just too risky for my taste.

FNP - it was never the guy with melta. You're thinking the guy with plasma. FNP still doesn't save against melta, remember? It does save against plasma, which is great in my opinion.

Yeah, My list was by no means meant to be all inclusive. I have really considered shelving my Angels and simply play either Grey Knights or Eldar. Ever since 3rd the Angels were my primary army, and the others were the ones I played when I got tired or needed a break.

Honestly, a lot of the nerfs, I've managed to adjust to. Then again though, I tend to view most disadvantages as more of a challenge than a handicap, per se

I never needed it for the plasma. I needed it for the full platoon FRFSRF, or the 30 shoota boyz, or the 12 Fire Warriors, or assaulting 20 hormagaunts. It gave an elite assault army resilience to torrent of small arms fire.

That's what going cover to cover (as in out of line of sight in this context) is for

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I never needed it for the plasma. I needed it for the full platoon FRFSRF, or the 30 shoota boyz, or the 12 Fire Warriors, or assaulting 20 hormagaunts. It gave an elite assault army resilience to torrent of small arms fire.

I was gonna say the same. More often than not, the 5+ is a nerf, but in a minority of cases (vs plasma guns and power weapons basically) it's handy to have.

ooh, power weapons, forgot about that one. That's actually really nice.

It seems like a lot hurt them, what about allied with Imperial Guard (my first army)... I was planning on building up blood angels slowly due to money and using them with my guard as I build up my collection, this could turn out to be a good mix though covering each others weaknesses?

I tried the IG allies and the thing I kept finding was that the more IG I added, the stronger the army got. Then I swapped to IG with BA allies and it got even better.

Then I just started playing my IG again.

Are Sanguinary Guard worth it... With or without a priest?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I never needed it for the plasma. I needed it for the full platoon FRFSRF, or the 30 shoota boyz, or the 12 Fire Warriors, or assaulting 20 hormagaunts. It gave an elite assault army resilience to torrent of small arms fire.

I was gonna say the same. More often than not, the 5+ is a nerf, but in a minority of cases (vs plasma guns and power weapons basically) it's handy to have.

Yeah, that's basically what I was clumsily trying to say

I'm thinking Dante with some honour guard, furosio dread, 5 man DC with lemartes. About 800pts to stick with guard which sounds fun to play.

I see the problems with blood angels, its a shame that such a cool army has suffered so much.

But as has been pointed out they can still hold their own in a non competitive enviroment and still look and sound awesome!