Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How does Mindshackle Scarabs interact with Hammer of Wrath?

Here is the setup that came up during a game.

Side A(Eldar) charges with a Wraithlord into a squad of Immortals with 1 Lord Equipped with Mindshackle Scarabs. The Wraithlord gets to make a Hammer of Wrath attack but shortest distance to Shortest distance puts the Wraithlord in BtB with the MSS Lord.

If the Wraithlord failed his LD test for MSS, does the Hammer of Wrath attack take place at all? Does HoW go first and then the MSS attacks potentially resolve at the Wraithlord's normal Iniative? Or if the Wraithlord fails his LD test does he HoW himself AND do D3 attacks to himself?

It's "instead of attacking normally" and his HoW attack would be considered part of attacking normally since the MSS should take effect before that.

Though I could also see the side of HoW is a special attack and not a normal attack...

But that's really a good question. Though I'm also doped up on vicodin right now so I can't really think clearly. Hah. You wouldn't redirect the HoW attack however, MSS clearly states you are only allowed to have him do D3 attacks to his unit.

My reading of it indicates that the Hammer of Wrath is part of 'attacking normally' which MSS supercedes.

As such, that single HoW attack would be gone entirely: it's not allowed to take place as part of MSS's 'd3 hits' and the opportunity to 'attack normally' is lost.

The Necron takes the hit. HoW is not part of attacking normaly as the hit is done before the the Fight-Sub phase starts. It is just resolved at I10.

Charge with MC.
Unit in BtB with MC is automaticaly hit.
Chalanges are issued.
MSS goes off.
I10: HoW gets resolved.
Rest of models "normal" attacks are resolve via MSS rules.

Nope.

MSS is resolved: "...at the start of the Fight sub-phase..."
Whereas HoW is explicitly (as in, written in it's own rules-text) resolved: "... during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 10 step..."

MSS happens first, and therefore takes precedence.

HoW attacks are specifically listed as an 'additional Attack', and attacks are something that MSS effects.

 Neorealist wrote:
Nope.

MSS is resolved: "...at the start of the Fight sub-phase..."
Whereas HoW is explicitly (as in, written in it's own rules-text) resolved: "... during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 10 step..."

MSS happens first, and therefore takes precedence.

HoW attacks are specifically listed as an 'additional Attack', and attacks are something that MSS effects.

Your missing "ends its charge move in base contact with one or more enemy models, it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically.."

So let me rethink my logic on it.

1) Charge with MC.
2) MC gets an additional attack that hits automatically at I10.
3) Challanges Issued.
4)MSS goes off.
5) Init rounds 10-1.

Little bit shaker ground than I thought.
Then the question is if the HoW attack is part of attacking normally. I would say no as the model can not normally attack outside of it's initative step. In addition MSS states that the D3 attacks happen "When it is his turn to attack" (per the FAQ). It is the models turn to attack when it is that model's initative step,

EDIT: And if you can prove to me that HoW is a normal CC attack I will be dancing in the street as that would mean that HoW is much better for Tyrnids then every other army. We would get the toxin sac re-rolls, ignoring armor with boneswords (and ID), ID with a 6 with implant attack and rending. Currently we don't get it as HoW is not a normal attack.

It's a special rule that gives you CC attacks at I10 with specific strength and ap. But they are CC attacks so all the rules that apply to CC attacks applies to HoW attacks too.

copper.talos wrote:
It's a special rule that gives you CC attacks at I10 with specific strength and ap. But they are CC attacks so all the rules that apply to CC attacks applies to HoW attacks too.

So you are saying shrikes with boneswords get to ignore armor with their HoW attacks?

Also you have HoW attacks go off at I1 if the unit being charged is in terrain?

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Nope.

MSS is resolved: "...at the start of the Fight sub-phase..."
Whereas HoW is explicitly (as in, written in it's own rules-text) resolved: "... during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 10 step..."

MSS happens first, and therefore takes precedence.

HoW attacks are specifically listed as an 'additional Attack', and attacks are something that MSS effects.

Your missing "ends its charge move in base contact with one or more enemy models, it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically.."

So let me rethink my logic on it.

1) Charge with MC.
2) MC gets an additional attack that hits automatically at I10.
3) Challanges Issued.
4)MSS goes off.
5) Init rounds 10-1.

Little bit shaker ground than I thought.
Then the question is if the HoW attack is part of attacking normally. I would say no as the model can not normally attack outside of it's initative step. In addition MSS states that the D3 attacks happen "When it is his turn to attack" (per the FAQ). It is the models turn to attack when it is that model's initative step,

EDIT: And if you can prove to me that HoW is a normal CC attack I will be dancing in the street as that would mean that HoW is much better for Tyrnids then every other army. We would get the toxin sac re-rolls, ignoring armor with boneswords (and ID), ID with a 6 with implant attack and rending. Currently we don't get it as HoW is not a normal attack.

Other than I10, AP- and unmodified STR, can you show me anything that states its not a melee attack ?

Gloomfang 472889 wrote:So you are saying shrikes with boneswords get to ignore armor with their HoW attacks?

Also you have HoW attacks go off at I1 if the unit being charged is in terrain?

yep, and nope.

(normally i'd answer yep for the second one too, but the HoW rule itself overrides the usual effect of terrain on initiative)

There are people who would say that HoW is a 'special' attack of some kind and so is not subject to other rules which modifies a units' melee attacks, but i'm not one of them.

 Gloomfang wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
It's a special rule that gives you CC attacks at I10 with specific strength and ap. But they are CC attacks so all the rules that apply to CC attacks applies to HoW attacks too.

So you are saying shrikes with boneswords get to ignore armor with their HoW attacks?

Also you have HoW attacks go off at I1 if the unit being charged is in terrain?

Jump units don't suffer initiative penalties for assaulting a unit in terrain or anything (if they use their jump packs to assault).

Odd, I thought that 'normal' attacks were those listed under the Attacks stat, and modified as explained under making attacks.
HoW is a special attack (attack made in close combat as a result of a special rule), and I wouldn't call it normal. In fact, it has a bunch of rules that make it different than all the other attacks the monstrous creature is going to make.

Does Special + Different = Normal? I don't think so.

By that same metric any attacks that benefit from a special rule (like smash, or rending) or some odd bit of wargear wouldn't be 'normal' attacks either.

Normal in this case encompasses any attacks made as part of the assault phase, basically anything which can be construed as a 'melee' or 'close combat' attack that is not otherwise explicitly defined as something 'special' (such as a special ability or psychic attack)

 Neorealist wrote:
By that same metric any attacks that benefit from a special rule (like smash, or rending) or some odd bit of wargear wouldn't be 'normal' attacks either.

Normal in this case encompasses any attacks made as part of the assault phase, basically anything which can be construed as a 'melee' or 'close combat' attack that is not otherwise explicitly defined as something 'special' (such as a special ability or psychic attack)

I think that makes the most sense. I just looked through all the abnormal attacks, and it's best to call them all 'normal melee'.
Otherwise a monster could just say, I'm going to Smash, and prevent MSS from working.

-Matt

 Neorealist wrote:
By that same metric any attacks that benefit from a special rule (like smash, or rending) or some odd bit of wargear wouldn't be 'normal' attacks either.

Normal in this case encompasses any attacks made as part of the assault phase, basically anything which can be construed as a 'melee' or 'close combat' attack that is not otherwise explicitly defined as something 'special' (such as a special ability or psychic attack)

Just a question, isn't Hammer of Wrath defined as a special ability, you know since it is a special rule? Unless you think HoW should benefit from Smash, as well as several other rules, it should not be affected by MSS.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
By that same metric any attacks that benefit from a special rule (like smash, or rending) or some odd bit of wargear wouldn't be 'normal' attacks either.

Normal in this case encompasses any attacks made as part of the assault phase, basically anything which can be construed as a 'melee' or 'close combat' attack that is not otherwise explicitly defined as something 'special' (such as a special ability or psychic attack)

Just a question, isn't Hammer of Wrath defined as a special ability, you know since it is a special rule? Unless you think HoW should benefit from Smash, as well as several other rules, it should not be affected by MSS.

HoW isnt affected by Smash, as the rules specifically point out. It is affected by any inate abilities of the model, however, such as Rending or boneswords

Attacking normally would surely be when you make you A stat Attacks, no? HoW is not a normal attack, but a special one

Yes, but the wording on HoW says that when you charge you make "an additional Attack." Which I would say is 1 extra normal attack resolved per the rules of fixed STR, INI, and AP.

...exc ept by definition it is abnormal. As only models with HoW make that Attack. It is also abnormal as it, unlike other attacks cannot use CCW. and so on.

It is more ABnormal than normal.

Then what, specifically, is the definition of 'normal' attacks??

Stealers have Rending Claws, is that 'normal'?
Wraiths just Rend naturally, is that 'normal'?

Marines can get extra attacks from two melee weapons? Is that normal?
Nids *can't* get extra attacks from two melee weapons? Is that normal?

Techmarines attack at I4 *and* at I1; is that normal?

MCs can double their str, is that normal?

There is a big long list of these....

Maybe the MSS rule is referencing the normal attacks for the model in b2b with it. Which for jump and monstrous models the HoW attack would be normal.

I would say that an attack like the c'tan Gaze of Death is NOT a normal attack (for those not knowing it, "After all other blows in the C'tan shard's combat have been struck, do XYZ") but it does happen in the assault phase.

So, really I would think that "normal" would be subjective to the model in b2b with the MSS carrying model.

Don't all monstrous creatures normally have hammer of wrath?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

coredump wrote:
Then what, specifically, is the definition of 'normal' attacks??

Stealers have Rending Claws, is that 'normal'?
Wraiths just Rend naturally, is that 'normal'?

Marines can get extra attacks from two melee weapons? Is that normal?
Nids *can't* get extra attacks from two melee weapons? Is that normal?

Techmarines attack at I4 *and* at I1; is that normal?

MCs can double their str, is that normal?

There is a big long list of these....

yes
yes
yes
yes
all normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it weren't a normal attack it wouldnt go off at inititiave 10

As far as I can tell "normal attacks" are the attacks listed on the stat line modified by wargear/charging/special rules. SInce Hammer of Wrath does not modify the Attack characteristic, it would not be a "normal" attack.

For example, assuming Prince Yriel could take an Eldar Jetbike (he cannot but bear with me a moment), if he were to charge he would get HoW, and then instead of making his 5 attacks (4+1 for charging) he could then use his Eye of Wrath, which replaces his normal attacks.

Happyjew wrote:
As far as I can tell "normal attacks" are the attacks listed on the stat line modified by wargear/charging/special rules. SInce Hammer of Wrath does not modify the Attack characteristic, it would not be a "normal" attack.

For example, assuming Prince Yriel could take an Eldar Jetbike (he cannot but bear with me a moment), if he were to charge he would get HoW, and then instead of making his 5 attacks (4+1 for charging) he could then use his Eye of Wrath, which replaces his normal attacks.

I think if HoW went off as soon as you got into base contact with the model then yeah, it would go off, then MMS, but it just gives you one additional attack at I10, its part of the assault after it begins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
its would be this in this order
declare charge
overwatch
roll charge distance and move
MMS
HoW




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oooo...

just looked at the exact wording... I think i'll go back to being undecided and thinking about it...

Hammer of Wrath is a special ability, much like Rending, Force, or Smash. I won't and don't dispute that.

What i meant was that it grants an 'additional (aka 'normal') attack'; which is modified by happening at initiative 10, and always being at the models unmodified strength statistic (unless it's a CCB) and ap -. It does 'modify' the attack statistic by giving it a +1 with a few extras besides.

Just like having two CCWs grants an extra attack and furious charge grants a +1 to strength, so too does HoW grant a few modifiers to a given combat sequence. That doesn't make the attack itself a special ability, just one that is granted 'by' a special ability. It's an important distinction when discussing things like MSS.

 Neorealist wrote:
Hammer of Wrath is a special ability, much like Rending, Force, or Smash. I won't and don't dispute that.

What i meant was that it grants an 'additional (aka 'normal') attack'; which is modified by happening at initiative 10, and always being strength 6 and ap -. It does 'modify' the attack statistic by giving it a +1 with a few extras besides.

Not to pick nits, but it's unmodified strength.

Oops! You are correct, sorry i was thinking of the one on the Necron Catacomb Command Barge for my reference which is always strength 6.

Happyjew wrote:
As far as I can tell "normal attacks" are the attacks listed on the stat line modified by wargear/charging/special rules. SInce Hammer of Wrath does not modify the Attack characteristic, it would not be a "normal" attack.
.

And how do you 'tell' that? What makes the HoW special rule 'abnormal' but the Poison special rule 'normal'?

 Neorealist wrote:
Hammer of Wrath is a special ability, much like Rending, Force, or Smash. I won't and don't dispute that.

What i meant was that it grants an 'additional (aka 'normal') attack'; which is modified by happening at initiative 10, and always being at the models unmodified strength statistic (unless it's a CCB) and ap -. It does 'modify' the attack statistic by giving it a +1 with a few extras besides.

This I dispute. 'Additional' is not synonym for 'normal'. Normal means ordinary, and HoW doesn't grant any ordinary attack. And it definitely does not modify Attack statistic.

coredump wrote:

Happyjew wrote: As far as I can tell "normal attacks" are the attacks listed on the stat line modified by wargear/charging/special rules. SInce Hammer of Wrath does not modify the Attack characteristic, it would not be a "normal" attack.

And how do you 'tell' that? What makes the HoW special rule 'abnormal' but the Poison special rule 'normal'?

I don't see Poison USR granting any attacks, so it has no relevance in this discussion. Happyjew claimed that the attacks granted by HoW are not what you could consider 'normal' attacks, and I agree.

Few points that some people might have missed:
* MSS cannot use Servo-arms in any way. They're wargear, not weapons.
* MSS cannot double Strength by using Smash. Smash is not ability of the models close combat weapon, but of the model.

Luide wrote:
I don't see Poison USR granting any attacks, so it has no relevance in this discussion. Happyjew claimed that the attacks granted by HoW are not what you could consider 'normal' attacks, and I agree.

Then again i ask, what *exactly* is the definition of a 'normal attack'?? And what rules did you use to determine this?

If you take only the most basic of attacks as 'normal', then you have to assume modifying them to poison is now abnormal.
If you accept modifications, but refuse 'additional' attacks, then you need to have a reason for making that distinction. Further, it means that charging or using 2 melee weapons is now 'abnormal'. As is using a demon weapon, or Crushing Claws, or warp speed...

So... what is 'normal'??

In the same note, smash attacks would be abnormal as well and would secure you safety from MSS. After all, it's an attack granted by a special rule in the same vain as HoW.

If the model is forced to take the leadership test prior to the fight sub-phase then any attacks during the initiative steps should be considered "normal attacks". I feel I gave a reasonable example to what would not be a "normal attack" earlier on in this thread.