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hey guys.

Ive recently been very interested in daemons, and since started to collect them as my secondary army. Now the list ive build is very few in number for a 1500 point list and goes as such

Bloodthirster

Tzeentch herald

3 x 5 flamers

9 screamers

2 x 5 pink horrors

2 x 5 plaguebearers

1 daemonprince


Now the list ive comprised is mainly facing more elite armies. i mainly play against grey knights, necrons, tau and occasionally Eldar.....

A couple of my friends have just started with hordes.... Orks, guard, and tyranids... and i have no idea how to combat them, as ive completely tried to avoid the soulgrinder (necons gauss), and i cant figure out what other units i can choose that would affectively deal with a horde army?

Any help will really help, also im having trouble dealing with Warpquake, really throws a spanner in my flamer deplyoment

Warpquake is one of those things that will be an issue for a long time im affraid.

Horde though, you have a few choices.

Horrors in large numbers really do put out alot of shooting, and thanks to a better save, can take a fair bit in return.
More suited for a gunline army though with fateweaver keeping them alive.

Other option is daemonettes/seekers/fiends.
All 3 can throw out a large amount of attacks and very quickly.
I prefer fiends and seekers due to the speed and more attacks, but basic nettes do work in large numbers.

On the plus side, slaanesh daemons really do help against elite armies aswell since rending allways has a use.

I would cut the flamers from 3x5 down to 2x3 or just a unit of 5.
They are essentially a suicide unit that will drop, destroy a high value target then get shot to death or dragged down in combat,
I would also cut the screamers a little (down to 6 or so)

Points saved from that can go into seekers/fiends and really bolster your army.

Thanks a lot for your really quick and very helpful advice! But I was always told to drop seekers and fiends due to them being very easily killed, and a bit of a target. Maybe if I get 3 units of 5 flamers down it could be out enough damage that I wouldn't have to return fire?

Fiends are good, with a large number of attacks at S5 and rending, plus being very fast makes them good vs hordes. More horrors wouldn't be a terrible idea either. groups of horrors can cut up horde infantry if deepstriking to deny cover.

I'd think about building an alternate wave. So your primary wave I am assuming is flamer heavy. try building a second wave that can be used as a primary vs warp quake, or armies that are tailored to counter an alpha flamer strike. I've enjoyed using a KoS, DP's, horrors and fiends further back and using their speed/range to get them to help with the fight. So the first turn is deepstriking in my half, and the second is in their half, with the first half moving up. So Its an beta flamer strike, with more units to provide threats for target saturation. If that makes sense...

I have to disagree on the new flamers - they are no longer simply a suicide unit. Flamers now are finely tuned killing machines - as good and arguably better than Fiends. Overwatch with their templates plus the damage breath does on its own combined with wound allocation through a herald makes them a nightmare to opponents.

I might bump the flamers up to units of 6 or 7 and drop one unit for a a unit of Fiends - then 2 Tzeetch heralds and a Slaanesh herald on discs/seekers respectively. I like the Tzeetch with We Are Legion and Master of Sorcery and Bolt. The Slaanesh with Pavane and a mount - the Slaanesh herald is there for wound allocation, that is it, do not treat her like she will do any real cc damage.

With those changes, add another unit of Screamers - they are the anti warp quake since they can turbo boost when they arrive inside its radius to pull off a second turn assault. I would also lose the Prince, I think they are overpriced and gimmicky for what they do.

Can someone please explain to me how this herald wound allocation works?

And why would you drop the prince? FMC seem to dominate 6th ed, and I upgraded mine to be a mega point sink it was kick ass! Sure I cried for half an hour when it died...... But it was worth it!

I do not really care for Princes because I think they are too fragile for a 200+ point model and do not put out enough damage to justify their inclusion.

The way Herald wound allocation works is you put the herald in te front of the unit - when enemies shoot at the unit, you use the 2+ Look Out Sir! to move the wound to an unwounded model and spread them across the unit.

 calypso2ts wrote:
I do not really care for Princes because I think they are too fragile for a 200+ point model and do not put out enough damage to justify their inclusion.

The way Herald wound allocation works is you put the herald in te front of the unit - when enemies shoot at the unit, you use the 2+ Look Out Sir! to move the wound to an unwounded model and spread them across the unit.

On their own perhaps they are too fragile, but multiple DPs with Fateweaver backup is a different animal.

Fateweaver makes any model good - I still do not think they stand on their own. I would rather bring Screamers (rerollable 3++ when turbo), Flamers, Seekers, or Fiends to the table over a 200 point prince that requires a 333 point model to make it into combat.

Fate also does not help against grounding checks, nor does it increase the damage output at all - 4 attacks just does not cut it. IF you kit for CC, you really need to spend to get any shooting (breath probably) and the same for shooting.

I've been running mine with MoT, Bolt, Breath and Wings, sometimes Iron Hide. That's 230 or 260 points. I've found them to be durable enough when they're swooping, even when I don't get my preferred wave and they arrive without Fateweaver. There's also a threat saturation thing going on when there a few units of Flamers and Screamers on the table at the same time.

I played in a tournament this weekend at my local battle bunker and came in tied for first. I ran three princes at 2500 points. The one prince I lost was due to a DS mishap. They took some wounds yes, but overall they did most of the heavy lifting for me.

I agree they might not be optimal, but for me it comes down to my love for the model, and my enjoyment of how they work in-game (and the fact that I have four DPs, and only 6 Screamers). My opinion is that they're great, but to each his own, I understand that other players will weight them differently.

calypso2ts wrote:I would rather bring Screamers (rerollable 3++ when turbo)

I agree with this suggestion, but isn't it a re-rollable 4+ (cover)?

Hide is a waste of points. It already has a 4++, you really don't need to spend 30 points for a 3+. Especially when you have 3 of them.

Though personally I like to max out on a Lord of Change. For 30 points more than a Deamon Prince with the same abilities, you get a bonus Strength and Toughness and a 3++. Obviously this works best at >2k.

 Testify wrote:
Hide is a waste of points. It already has a 4++, you really don't need to spend 30 points for a 3+. Especially when you have 3 of them.

Though personally I like to max out on a Lord of Change. For 30 points more than a Deamon Prince with the same abilities, you get a bonus Strength and Toughness and a 3++. Obviously this works best at >2k.

Are you sure that Hide isn't worth it? I know with my C'tan, the main reason they sucked, was that they didn't have a better save than 4++. I'm considering a Daemon prince in allies, and I would think that Iron hide is well worth the points, in saving itself from small arms fire.

Well assuming *everything* that shoots at your DP does allow the save, you're saving 1/6 of the wounds. DPs have 4 wounds, so...I dunno. It means that when your DP loses his last wound, there will be a 2/3 chance that he could have an extra wound, if that makes sense. With Fateweaver it goes from saving 3/4 of wounds to 8/9, which is 11%.

So to me, no. There are too many AP 1/2/3 wounds on my DPs, too many times they're dragged into combat and butchered. I'd rather spend those 90 points on more horrors, or if I *had* to spend them on the DPs then on additional shooting attacks.

As I said, YMMV. If you had a solid Flying Circus then...yeah, maybe.

 calypso2ts wrote:
I do not really care for Princes because I think they are too fragile for a 200+ point model and do not put out enough damage to justify their inclusion.

Yep. You need to keep them DP's cheap. That's why in 5th before FMC's I liked bolt/gaze princes. 155, gets a 4++ (why pay for the 3+? plasma/heavy weapons for killing MC's are gonna ignore it, and it costs an arm and a leg). Can shoot its maximum. The only CC upgrades to get for it are-MoK (and lose all shooting prowess...), Iron hide (expensive!), wings (EXPENSIVE ><, Musk for hit and run (decent), and Rot (needs MoN)... oh and noxious touch, so it always wounds on a 2+. For its cost, a basic daemon prince eats MEQ's and punches on hard for 155p. I was never a fan of CC princes- takes longer to start doing damage, and the CC prince is beaten by most decent CC units- TH/SS terms, 30 boyz/tricked out nobs, bloodcrushers... the list goes on. Anything BUT a solid CC unit the DP will beat down, but it can't take on melee specialists.

I wish I had more fiends/screamers/flamers So i could not field my DP's :(