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Say if i charged my Trygon into a rhino, i get 7 attacks and a Hammer of Wrath Attack. Can i use Smash?

It'll halve my 7 attacks and halve my HOW Attack?

Making me get 4 normal attacks and one HOW attack right?

HoW is always at base strength.

but yes you get 4 attacks at Str 10 and your HoW attack at base strength.

Ah...

Shame :(

But you don't halve your 7 attacks, you halve your 6 attacks to 3, then add 1 for charging.

If Raging with Smash Attack, you would get 5 attacks.

And if you had warpspeed on you can get as high as 6 (tyrant) or even 9 (tervigon with crushers).

Not true, you Halve your attacks characteristic, and warpspeed and the like add into that characteristic.

Result is the same though since 7 halved is 3.5 which we round up to 4 anyway.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not true, you Halve your attacks characteristic, and warpspeed and the like add into that characteristic.

Result is the same though since 7 halved is 3.5 which we round up to 4 anyway.

A debated issue all based on whether you dont believe division is a multiplier..

Well since multipliers are not divisors...

/Shrug, no need to dig up another thread that will go nowhere.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well since multipliers are not divisors...

Mathematically this is false. And you're forgetting that Multiple Modifiers doesn't actually state when divisors are applied, so I'd really like to see where in the rules does it state "apply addition and subtraction first, then divide". Also, Smash rules say "Halve", not divide. Halving can be done by multiplying by 0.5.

There are only two options:
1) Multipliers and divisors are equal as far as order of operations is concerned, exactly as you would do in any other time you were told to multiply and divide in same calculation.
* Halve first, then add or subtract.
2) Divisor is not equal to multiplier in order of operations (in 40k). Divisor obviously isn't addition, subtraction or set value. Rules don't tell us when to apply divisor, except for that it should be applied before set values.
* Roll-off to see how rules work this time.

Considering we have situation where one interpretation leads to rolling off each time and other works exacly as normal rules of mathematics do, I know which one I'd choose.

Anyone who's had mathematical education beyond the 7th grade knows division and multiplication are two sides of the same coin.

Luide, don't bother. Everyone knows that is how it works, except him. There is a multi-page thread somewhere of folks trying to convince him...... as you can see it never worked.

As for the rest of the world..... first you multiply by .5, then you add other attacks.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Anyone who's had mathematical education beyond the 7th grade knows division and multiplication are two sides of the same coin.

and so is addition and subtraction, two sides of the same coin, yet the rules specifically mention addition and subtraction and yet they only specifically mention multipliers and not divisors...

Sorry to inferfere with this intense Mathmatical debate, but are Vehicles the only thing "Smash" can be used against?

Luide wrote:Also, Smash rules say "Halve", not divide. Halving can be done by multiplying by 0.5.

Page 5 tells us halve = divide...

"DIVIDING TO CONQUER
On occasion, you'll be called upon to divide the result of a dice roll, a characteristic or some other value. N7here this happens, any fractions should always be rounded .tp. So a D6 roll of 3, halved, would be a result of 2 (1.5 rounded up)"

divide = halved RAW.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Sorry to inferfere with this intense Mathmatical debate, but are Vehicles the only thing "Smash" can be used against?

You can "smash" to instakill multiwound models.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Sorry to inferfere with this intense Mathmatical debate, but are Vehicles the only thing "Smash" can be used against?

You can do Smash against anything. It is really good for IDing Nob Bikers and Thunderwolves. You just don't get the re-roll for armor pen.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Anyone who's had mathematical education beyond the 7th grade knows division and multiplication are two sides of the same coin.

and so is addition and subtraction, two sides of the same coin, yet the rules specifically mention addition and subtraction and yet they only specifically mention multipliers and not divisors...

There's an important difference between those two comparisons, but we wont get into that. Suffice it to say that if you think that Division is more like Addition/Subtraction than Multiplication, thats fine, you can play it however, you want.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Sorry to inferfere with this intense Mathmatical debate, but are Vehicles the only thing "Smash" can be used against?

You can Smash anything. My opponent tried for 3 turns to smash my enfeebled Tervigon but couldn't roll above a 3 to save his life

coredump wrote:
Luide, don't bother. Everyone knows that is how it works, except him. There is a multi-page thread somewhere of folks trying to convince him...... as you can see it never worked.

As for the rest of the world..... first you multiply by .5, then you add other attacks.

A bit uncalled for; everyone is allowed their own opinion - don't disregard it because it doesn't fall in line with your own!

I can see both sides of that argument; DeathReaper believes that multiplying by 0.5 and dividing by 2 are different functions that arrive at the same result and I'm certainly in no position to refute that. - personally it's never come up in one of my games but we've decided to play it that bonus attacks don't alter characteristics.

To answer the question, HoW states in it's rules entry that it can't benefit from smash (the HoW attack itself that it.)

Iranna.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:Also, Smash rules say "Halve", not divide. Halving can be done by multiplying by 0.5.

Page 5 tells us halve = divide...

"DIVIDING TO CONQUER
On occasion, you'll be called upon to divide the result of a dice roll, a characteristic or some other value. N7here this happens, any fractions should always be rounded .tp. So a D6 roll of 3, halved, would be a result of 2 (1.5 rounded up)"

divide = halved RAW.

Well, then I guess you never divide in Multiple modifiers, since Division is not on the order of operations. RAW.

Thank you for clearing that up .

Crushing claws on a Carnifex is 5-7 S10, ap2 attacks that reroll penetration all the time because why wouldn't you use smash when multiple modifiers can never divide?

Rule of Basic vs Advanced.

Basic Rule = Multiple modifiers.

Advanced rule = Smash.

Smash is more advanced than the basic multiple modifiers section so it is applied after the general rule.

Smash is applied like any other modifier. Nothing RAW would suggest otherwise.

Until you read the smash rule. Smash Halving the attacks is not a modifier covered by "Multiple Modifiers"

it gives you the timing on when to Halve the attacks characteristic. Which is at the Initiative that it is making its CC attacks.

This Advanced rule takes precedent over the basic multiple modifiers rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Until you read the smash rule. Smash Halving the attacks is not a modifier covered by "Multiple Modifiers"

it gives you the timing on when to Halve the attacks characteristic. Which is at the Initiative that it is making its CC attacks.

This Advanced rule takes precedent over the basic multiple modifiers rule.

Only when in conflict.
Halving is a multiplier. It doesn't say ignore all negative multipliers. Multipliers don't always increase a value.
It doesn't say "Multiplication and Division" because it says "Multipliers" which covers both.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Rule of Basic vs Advanced.

Basic Rule = Multiple modifiers.

Advanced rule = Smash.

Smash is more advanced than the basic multiple modifiers section so it is applied after the general rule.

If you want to pull a "smash is the more advanced rule" that is fine.

Now the Crushing Claws and the Assault Bonus attacks do absolutely nothing, as do any other bonus attacks.

Because Smash overrules multiple modifiers and dividing takes place outside of Multiple modifiers order of operations so you cannot apply any modifiers other than smash's divide by 2.

 Iranna wrote:

coredump wrote:
Luide, don't bother. Everyone knows that is how it works, except him. There is a multi-page thread somewhere of folks trying to convince him...... as you can see it never worked.

As for the rest of the world..... first you multiply by .5, then you add other attacks.

A bit uncalled for; everyone is allowed their own opinion - don't disregard it because it doesn't fall in line with your own!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion? There are certain situations where opinions are wrong. Labeling something as an opinion doesn't magically make everyone right. He simply listed a fact: there is a thread that exists where multiple people tried to convince him otherwise and current evidence supports that it was not successful. Hardly uncalled for. There was no slight or attack, just the facts. By definition his opinion is wrong.

@DeathReaper
You still haven't answered the question: Where does it say divide happens after addition and subtraction.
As Multiple modifiers don't mention divide at all, doesn't that mean we have three options (yes, I said two before but I've thought about it more):
1) Divide is done before Multiple Modifers takes effect.

2) Divide is done during Multiple Modifiers rule, after multiply but before set values, so you need to roll-off to see if it is:
2.1) Before addition and subtraction
2.2) After addition and subtraction

3) Divide is done after Multiple Modifiers rule. Even after set values.

Which one of these is RAW, and why?

Luide wrote:
@DeathReaper
You still haven't answered the question: Where does it say divide happens after addition and subtraction.

Smash rule, by virtue of the timing within.

So.....

No smashing when i use hammer of wrath right?